Question: ermik´s quest for consensus part #1

[ermik]

I´m back in Entropia since a month, trying to get a grip around loot 2.0 and how things all connect together.
In this process my goal is to ask a couple of questions in a few threads, where we focus on discussing one component at a time.

The problem with loot theory-threads are they get cluttered, with alot of things at the same time and with no clear component to reach consensus on.

So, i will start my update on how things work by asking my first question, and stay on track here just discuss the actual question please .

Given this statements from MA.

DPP affects loot composition

and

Not dealing the full potential damage with each shot used to negatively affect the "loot value" returns greatly but now primarily negatively affect the "loot composition"

*************************

My interp of this is:

There is no magic function that calculates your dpp and give you cooler loot as you loot, its the increased number of loot-events you can afford with better DPP that constitutes the base around the statement "DPP affects loot composition" since more loot-events give you a better statistical advantage to find something nice.

So, am I right or wrong, discuss.

 

[raulpon]

Overamping is bad
Overkilling with last shot, is not as bad as pre 2.0
Efficency = more TT return
DPP = more interesting loot, not all sharpnel and shits
And about armor - overprotecting is now fine, since many if not most healing tools are not viable vs armor repair cost

 

[SuperFly]

Yes, seems there is no "magic function" that calculates your dpp, but any unefficiency ( such as high cost to kill, healing cost, armor decay etc... ) is compensated by shrap only. So you have to increase your dpp and decrese healing and armor decay as much as you can to get better loot composition (less shrap in loot).

I noticed also, that high dpp reduces the return TT% volatility - you get more stable return and you have to kill less mobs to get an equalizer glob/minis.

 

[TheRock]

Play with that works for u. Don't always copy what MA say. In theory all is right, but in practice there are other factors they will never mention. Else they will reveal how loot works exact. They sometimes don't know their own game ...

 

[Oleg]

I haven't done a lot of testing myself but I don't think this is correct. If you have a ridiculously high cost to kill, e.g. killing 10 HP mobs with a 200 damage weapon, I believe you get 100% shrapnel no matter how many mobs you kill. It's based on the amount spent on that kill (like the loot calculation is) divided by the actual HP taken from the mob (or the inverse of that).

The closest I've got to testing is using a TT gun with a Mod Evil, and got 100% shrapnel, but I didn't really kill enough mobs to be confident it proves anything.

Hijacker did the whole Codex killing Daikiba Young with an enhanced Rainbow Sword, so he'd be a good person to ask. I think he said he got 100% shrapnel.

 

[ermik]

I haven't done a lot of testing myself but I don't think this is correct. If you have a ridiculously high cost to kill, e.g. killing 10 HP mobs with a 200 damage weapon, I believe you get 100% shrapnel no matter how many mobs you kill. It's based on the amount spent on that kill (like the loot calculation is) divided by the actual HP taken from the mob.

The closest I've got to testing is using a TT gun with a Mod Evil, and got 100% shrapnel, but I didn't really kill enough mobs to be confident it proves anything.

Hijacker did the whole Codex killing Daikiba Young with an enhanced Rainbow Sword, so he'd be a good person to ask. I think he said he got 100% shrapnel.

So one idea could be that on each individual loot event there is a calc made where your summarized dpp for that kill determines actual loot on that mob, but wouldnt that create an issue with performance? Or is this also an idea that supports the theory of each location having its own loot-server?

 

[Oleg]

So one idea could be that on each individual loot event there is a calc made where your summarized dpp for that kill determines actual loot on that mob, but wouldnt that create an issue with performance? Or is this also an idea that supports the theory of each location having its own loot-server?

We know it already calculates the amount you spend on the kill, and the HP is a set number for each mob (assuming it doesn't account for regeneration) so it's just a simple division. I don't see why it would cause any performance issues.

 

[ermik]

We know it already calculates the amount you spend on the kill, and the HP is a set number for each mob (assuming it doesn't account for regeneration) so it's just a simple division. I don't see why it would cause any performance issues.

Just trying to understand it from a coders point of view, one challenge is to create a system thats effecient and has good performance built in it. DPP having an actual effect on each lootevent-calc is a controversal idea in my view. But that does not mean its not, i could ofcourse be wrong in that aspect.

 

[ermik]

We know it already calculates the amount you spend on the kill, and the HP is a set number for each mob (assuming it doesn't account for regeneration) so it's just a simple division. I don't see why it would cause any performance issues.

Juat realised i may be wrong in my dpp assumption. this from MA:

To best achieve Optimal Loot:

Be sure to have the Hit Ability and Damage profession requirements maxed (10.0/10.0) on the weapon your avatar is using.
Avoid over-amping (using a weapon amplifier that adds more than 50% of the maximum damage of the weapon to which it is equipped).
Minimize healing costs and the need to interrupt damage dealing to heal.
In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.

He basicly says DPP is calculated for each loot-event.

 

[Spawn]

So one idea could be that on each individual loot event there is a calc made where your summarized dpp for that kill determines actual loot on that mob, but wouldnt that create an issue with performance? Or is this also an idea that supports the theory of each location having its own loot-server?

Loot lag is planet wide.

 

[Deemer]

If you talk about the regular lag of the loot, it is mostly at every 2 hours. This lag calculates the loot on each Land ..each Land!.. and at this point the landowners take their profit.

The reason why this lag is not talked about is that before the calculation the probability of multiplication is high, because the system returns some of the losses from the period before.. and when we talk about return, it means "multiply". And of course many people benefit .. mostly old players which understand this, so therefore I think there are no statements about it for this reason... or I couldn't find.

I think there were rough calculations in the forum about how much is the Land tax on Calypso(CLD- "Calypso LAND Deed")... I think it was ~ 6% (correct me if I'm wrong)... I have provided Calypso Lands which "has no taxes"... Planet Partners I think it's similar... im not sure and i don't care at all, but its logical... and it don't harm my wallet, even i know it.. but.. That's the question... if by raising Looter professions, will we reduce these fees? Is this the case with the Lands who are not the property of MA .. that is, LA and PP.


On the topic of DPP...

The MA has announced that it is replacing the old understanding of DPP with Efficiency by adding it to the weapon's information. As with a change with an object, this is reflected in Orange.

The MA has announced that Optimal looting (low murder costs) increases our chance of better loot and return.


When we put a over-AMP on the weapon, its indication in with increased efficiency, while the DPP decreases dramatically.
-this is a contradiction!

There is a killing capacity (cap for cost for kill) that depends on the HP of the mob. When this capacity is exceeded, the result is only shrapnel. While if you are below this maximum, even with a Over-AMP (low DPP)... the difference in the chance of Rarity items is obviously increased!
-this is a contradiction!

Take every statement of the MA back and start from there. The above factors are used for exploit, mainly by those who understand them, but also by those who do not understand them, but feel the difference. The reason no one mentions these Exploits is that people are looking for an Exploits, not the game play. But this is in....
- this is a contradiction to the statement from the MA!

The current system works and is set to work for normal gameplay only if you are above level 100 Looter and Knife with 99% Efficiency and 99% DPP. Only in this case you will risk ~50 ped in a long hunting run of a mob with 3k HP. And for everyone else, the risk of ~50 ped for a long hunting run will be 50 HP mobs.... which is...
- this is a contradiction!


Therefore, my conclusion is...
Accept every statement from the MA the opposite and start from there.
Or just push to level 150 cheap as possible avoiding all shits here. It means a gun with 50% Efficiency can be profitable even if you don't understand anything in the game... but it is..
- this is a contradiction of MA statement!


I have 2 Unachieved Professions.. If they are for Pool Theft by one-shooting mobs. So, I can be in big wrong... otherwise i can't understand all these contradiction.


PPRPRSP:
This one is on the focus here..

Entropia Universe - Developer-Notes-11-Loot-2.0

Later this month, MindArk will be releasing a special Loot 2.0 Version Update that will overhaul the way in which hunting loot is calculated and distr

www.entropiauniverse.com

 

[ermik]

Loot lag is planet wide.

So basicly the change to loot 2.0 is not really the change ppl might think?

In loot 1.0 it was the actual damage done to the mob that was translated into a tt value of the loot, now in 2.0 the tt value is set from actual tt input in the killing of the mob, HOWEVER they still kept the importance of DPP to calc if the kill was effecient enough to trigger interesting loot.

So basicly not much have changed, unless you used to have a playstyle with low dpp and big tt losses. If you always tried to be "eco" this 2.0-system are no real news in terms of adapting.

 

[Spawn]

So basicly the change to loot 2.0 is not really the change ppl might think?

In loot 1.0 it was the actual damage done to the mob that was translated into a tt value of the loot, now in 2.0 the tt value is set from actual tt input in the killing of the mob, HOWEVER they still kept the importance of DPP to calc if the kill was effecient enough to trigger interesting loot.

So basicly not much have changed, unless you used to have a playstyle with low dpp and big tt losses. If you always tried to be "eco" this 2.0-system are no real news in terms of adapting.

Well some people believe in weapons that have efficiency that is higher than their dpp, such as mayhem and fen edition weaponry.

 

[ermik]

Well some people believe in weapons that have efficiency that is higher than their dpp, such as mayhem and fen edition weaponry.

Well Eff% is different since we actually know that it affects 0-7% of tt returned in loot. We just dont know where the baseline is. Is 50% eff% equal to 4% on that scale or.... we dont know.