Info: F-106 Tier 10 FINALLY :)

LeelooM

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Here a pic of my F-106 Tier 10
Thanks to Auktuma
:)



For me this is the ultimate finder
that will give me findings between
depth 700 - 1500
so a huge range
 

LAZZ

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Nice achivment! Big Gratz :wtg::yay::eyecrazy:
 

Bones

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Thats a lovely machine .. gratz.
 

Summer

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Gratz :yay::yay::yay:
 

Vi Bitfury

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Congratz on the long time goal and enjoy the extra coverage :)
 
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Photon

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Surely this should be an achievement thread?!

Gratz on the tier upgrade and keep 'em dropping. :)
 

kingofaces

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Congrats! This reminds me about getting mining testing going again for effects of depth on hit rate, TT, etc. Maybe something to try this winter and maybe get the gang back together on.
 

LeelooM

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Congrats! This reminds me about getting mining testing going again for effects of depth on hit rate, TT, etc. Maybe something to try this winter and maybe get the gang back together on.
Thank you very much :)

Yes for sure, a lot is going on in the last month with mining. We already spoke about it in chat

My biggest mining bubble after a few days, as I call it, in 100 drops is depth between 694 - 1343 so this is really a big range (bigger range = higher HR) .

So far my average break rate for enh in dual is still 6 so not bad at all neither = around 3,5% costs (including decay's + depth enh @ 200%) on my runs.

Now that the tiering is done, time to test more.

I'll be concentrating on amp caps and blocked resources

EDIT : this reminds me of a double dual drop I tested (with amp 2 on both of them) With F-106 (9enh) + F-101 and using the F-101 first ... my HR with the F-106 was 6 x higher :)
 
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Robin

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gratz Leeloo..MY BF in rl has a f106 on his avatar. He can't log in because of a bad computer now. I am hoping MA lets him retain his stuff.
 

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Great toy, I was annoyed af when testing for enhancer break rate but still regret selling it :D
 

TheRock

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Very nice achievment :)

I wonder if someone uses say a Terramaster L tier 2 and say 115-120% MU on the finder and get same depth as the F106 t10 would be better or vica verse. Or Terramaster 8 L with 1 or no enhancer...

To me those Terramasters still does the job and should be "better". But then I have never tested a T10 F106 to compare to :D
 

kingofaces

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Very nice achievment :)

I wonder if someone uses say a Terramaster L tier 2 and say 115-120% MU on the finder and get same depth as the F106 t10 would be better or vica verse. Or Terramaster 8 L with 1 or no enhancer...

To me those Terramasters still does the job and should be "better". But then I have never tested a T10 F106 to compare to :D
Just based on finder decay and enhancer "decay" (@180% MU) vs limited finder decay and markup, assuming you're mixing it up between ore and enmatter, a Terra 8 will be comparable or even slightly cheaper than an F-106 at the same depth. It's one of the only instances where a limited finder can eek out past a 106 w/ enhancers for anything below 700m depth. MU has come down on those Terramasters too. If you're just single dropping enmatter though, the enhanced 106 pretty much always comes out ahead due to decreased enhancer breakage.

That said, the big question is if there's any legitimate reason to go that deep? For enmatter, my target of 750m is about as far as I go. Do you hit enough additional rare resources to make up for the extra cost at 1000m, or is the percentage similar enough compared to 800-900m average? There's some discussion on whether depth can indirectly affect hit rate in either direction too. I want to do a little testing this winter on the latter at least like we did last winter for claim respawn rates.
 

LeelooM

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What we have been testing or do see in soc is if you go that deep mining (dual or even tripple on Ark) all the time (as I do), you really need to use amp 2 (minimum) all the time.

Not using amp 2 makes the run cheaper but the same amount of enhancers will break as with amp 2.

This makes the run less/none profitable, or read lower TT return versus higher cost and you would loose meaning do not get 100+% TT return.

For me now using the 10 depth enh slots + amp 2 is 100+% TT return also if I do not get rares (so far with 9 depth enh my average TT return is 112,85%). The bubble is becoming very big, had a run between 694-1343 depth so a higher HR is getting very normal.

Costs / run are around 3,5 %. This is for repairs and 9 enh counted at 200%


I never go mining for the rare, if I get them its ok, if I do not get them it's ok also, my runs do not depend on those.


Let me know when we can start testing again King :)

1 - Depth/HR testing
2 - Capped amps
3 - Blocked resources

are on my program also ^^

EDIT : I really think its fun how MA is shifting all up again now, makes you more eager to know where all is. Also returns have been shaked because of that and the same for some resources MU's, can't say it enough : keep stocking :laugh:
 
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kingofaces

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Not using amp 2 makes the run cheaper but the same amount of enhancers will break as with amp 2.

That's something I thought about at one point too, but never did more testing on. Basically, the enhancers are a fixed cost in a way, so assuming no amp caps, you're getting more TT per enhancer MU the bigger amp you go with.

"Conventional" wisdom on the forums (i.e., completely untested AFAIK) from my recollection, is that depth doesn't affect hit rate, just the types of resources available. I used to subscribe to that idea, but before that, I thought of a finder as having a search cylinder (Pi*search radius^2 * depth range). With the latter, you would get more hits the more you increase depth or radius. Not sure what I think now, but it should be testable once I think of how it should formally be done.

The other idea you bring up is that the depth range (i.e., min and max depth on a decent sized run) or the standard deviation, increases as you increase average depth. This is actually really common for real-world data as you move between orders of magnitude. It wouldn't surprise me if that's happening here, and could be a good thing if depth did affect hit rate.
 

LeelooM

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That's something I thought about at one point too, but never did more testing on. Basically, the enhancers are a fixed cost in a way, so assuming no amp caps, you're getting more TT per enhancer MU the bigger amp you go with.

"Conventional" wisdom on the forums (i.e., completely untested AFAIK) from my recollection, is that depth doesn't affect hit rate, just the types of resources available. I used to subscribe to that idea, but before that, I thought of a finder as having a search cylinder (Pi*search radius^2 * depth range). With the latter, you would get more hits the more you increase depth or radius. Not sure what I think now, but it should be testable once I think of how it should formally be done.

The other idea you bring up is that the depth range (i.e., min and max depth on a decent sized run) or the standard deviation, increases as you increase average depth. This is actually really common for real-world data as you move between orders of magnitude. It wouldn't surprise me if that's happening here, and could be a good thing if depth did affect hit rate.
Yes yes yes indeed :) I already tested this with amp 5 also and it worked BUT only if conditions are optimal, meaning in a well known zone I use often when mining conditions are extremely good only (HR 40+% for ores and 30+% for enm).
If mining conditions are bad, I would loose to much /drop on a NRF. So here again is the risk factor because of using higher than amp 2.

I was thinking the same about that "cylinder" so that's the reason I did double dual drops with amps on both finders, using F-101 and F-106 with 9 enh at the same time and my HR with the F-106 was 6 times higher. That's where I did get the idea of the higher HR. I did this where there is (was) a lot of belk in that zone, so that can be found at any depth range.
Question here is, is the depth making the difference or the finders?
In soc we have the F-101 up to F-106 that members can use, so I might start upgrading those also to test this out :)

What you get deeper or not is really dependable of what people stock or is on auction I think, except the rares need 800+ depth.
As some call it a resource loot pool.
This is my kind of mining = lots on auction = lots available = better TT return.
If you go mining for angelic now ... I'm sure you'll have a terrible run since almost nothing on auction ^^
The fact that some resources are "blocked" might only be because there is not enough available for that moment so really hard to prove that and only long term testing will get us there imo + the fact that MA might interfear :ahh:
With interfearing I mean like changing things in mining resources since some people are camping resources so if they change that ... or shifting things ... I love it :) it's like solving a puzzle
 
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Kerham

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On L enhanced vs ul enhanced I honestly don't know. The first time I tried (3 years ago), enhancers on L were breaking at least 2x faster than on ul. Then in 2017 or 2018 something deffinitely changed, I *think* nowadays the break rate on L and ul is equal. But I only *think* so, never had the budget or the will to extensively test it.

Another thing which I would look into is wether enhancer break rate is higher with amps, which was my initial impression and if so, if there is a relation between amp decay and break rate increase. The enunciation of the hypothesis itself implies a sample size which I can't handle (and is also above my math skills).

Pretty much because of these two I gave up tiered up 106, also because I heavily focused on 500-700ish depth, where enhancers were seriously not making any difference, given the wide range of tools available.

However if I ever go back to mining rares, which must have been my favourite style of mining, I would totally go with enhancers.
 

LeelooM

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On L enhanced vs ul enhanced I honestly don't know. The first time I tried (3 years ago), enhancers on L were breaking at least 2x faster than on ul. Then in 2017 or 2018 something deffinitely changed, I *think* nowadays the break rate on L and ul is equal. But I only *think* so, never had the budget or the will to extensively test it.

Another thing which I would look into is wether enhancer break rate is higher with amps, which was my initial impression and if so, if there is a relation between amp decay and break rate increase. The enunciation of the hypothesis itself implies a sample size which I can't handle (and is also above my math skills).

Pretty much because of these two I gave up tiered up 106, also because I heavily focused on 500-700ish depth, where enhancers were seriously not making any difference, given the wide range of tools available.

However if I ever go back to mining rares, which must have been my favourite style of mining, I would totally go with enhancers.
Been testing without and with amps (mostly amp 2) and average break rate on enh where the same.

This is because drops make enh break, not the return and drops stay the same with or without amps.

EDIT : but this is the reason I need to use amp 2 all the time cause costs would be to high to cover the TT return without amps
 
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TheRock

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Just based on finder decay and enhancer "decay" (@180% MU) vs limited finder decay and markup, assuming you're mixing it up between ore and enmatter, a Terra 8 will be comparable or even slightly cheaper than an F-106 at the same depth. It's one of the only instances where a limited finder can eek out past a 106 w/ enhancers for anything below 700m depth. MU has come down on those Terramasters too. If you're just single dropping enmatter though, the enhanced 106 pretty much always comes out ahead due to decreased enhancer breakage.

That said, the big question is if there's any legitimate reason to go that deep? For enmatter, my target of 750m is about as far as I go. Do you hit enough additional rare resources to make up for the extra cost at 1000m, or is the percentage similar enough compared to 800-900m average? There's some discussion on whether depth can indirectly affect hit rate in either direction too. I want to do a little testing this winter on the latter at least like we did last winter for claim respawn rates.
Yea but if the finder got higher decay, i think that decay will return to you back with slithly higher multiplier vs a super eco finder. This statement is very hard to prove or disprove, but im trying my best to know this.

I would like to give such a finder a long run to compare :)
 

kingofaces

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Yea but if the finder got higher decay, i think that decay will return to you back with slithly higher multiplier vs a super eco finder. This statement is very hard to prove or disprove, but im trying my best to know this.

I would like to give such a finder a long run to compare :)
Not to highjack Leeloo's post with mining mechanics again, but I'll bite. I still need to do another round for replication since it's been a few years now, but I actually tested this with two finders where the only difference between them was decay. Essentially, there was no statistically significant difference in TT between the two. It does look like decay isn't returned, unlike how hunting used to work before loot 2.0. It looks like it's only probes and amp decay that contribute to TT.
 

LeelooM

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Not to highjack Leeloo's post with mining mechanics again, but I'll bite. I still need to do another round for replication since it's been a few years now, but I actually tested this with two finders where the only difference between them was decay. Essentially, there was no statistically significant difference in TT between the two. It does look like decay isn't returned, unlike how hunting used to work before loot 2.0. It looks like it's only probes and amp decay that contribute to TT.
It's ok King, I love those discussions :p

I never believed in TT returned decay ....

I also never believed that if you only keep dropping, with or without amps, you will get it back ... and hit a biggy....

MA is not a charity. If mining is terrible (like now for instance) and you keep trowing and waisting your peds + use high level amps, do you really think you will get awarded for that some day?
Compare it with EP crafting .... 99,99% you are loosing (big time)

You can only beat this game by using decent gear, brains, lots of patience and for miners some good spots imo
 
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LeelooM

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Yea but if the finder got higher decay, i think that decay will return to you back with slithly higher multiplier vs a super eco finder. This statement is very hard to prove or disprove, but im trying my best to know this.

I would like to give such a finder a long run to compare :)
You just want to borrow my finder :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

No serious :)

I'm using the most eco finder with lots of enhancers agree.
My returns are mostly over 100+% TT returns even without multipliers cause I started to see them as extra's if mining is very good in my dual 100 drop runs.

I cannot help it seeing my returns as mining in very good zones, at the right time, at the right resources and decay has nothing to do with it. Like some hunters try to find the right mob that gives a nice return at a certain time.

With 100 dual drops my decay = 6,599 ped (decay finder 1,799 ped + average 6 enhancers breaking @ TT 4,8 ped) = 0,06599 ped / drop (+ the amp I use)

If burning TT would be the case I would use a finder with very high decay or use the F-105 since that 1 has higher decay :) would be much easier to get multi's then.

EDIT : remember the Where What When :)
 
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Geronimo

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ho nice ! 1014 average depth!

Big Gratz!

do you calculate average break for 100 drop unamped single search?

hum the answer is just above my post. forget it :D
 
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LeelooM

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Just based on finder decay and enhancer "decay" (@180% MU) vs limited finder decay and markup, assuming you're mixing it up between ore and enmatter, a Terra 8 will be comparable or even slightly cheaper than an F-106 at the same depth. It's one of the only instances where a limited finder can eek out past a 106 w/ enhancers for anything below 700m depth. MU has come down on those Terramasters too. If you're just single dropping enmatter though, the enhanced 106 pretty much always comes out ahead due to decreased enhancer breakage.

That said, the big question is if there's any legitimate reason to go that deep? For enmatter, my target of 750m is about as far as I go. Do you hit enough additional rare resources to make up for the extra cost at 1000m, or is the percentage similar enough compared to 800-900m average? There's some discussion on whether depth can indirectly affect hit rate in either direction too. I want to do a little testing this winter on the latter at least like we did last winter for claim respawn rates.
Agree for enmatter there is no need to go that deep, I use the F-106 even without depth enhancers

For ores, depending where I mine and if there are rares like ruga, redu, vesp I use depth enhancers. When mining for redu, in some case I get even 15% of that run in redu when using 10 depth enh + amp 2 so here its easy profit.
Can't say if HR is better then, a lot changed (in belkar territory :p) so need to do a few more runs to see the changes.

What does affect the outcome on every run for ores... is mostly the amp, when buying/crafting at a maximum of 104-105%. Even using amp 2 already gives me an average -5% (mainly on the NRF) on the end result ... so in most cases that goes of the profit and for now I'm back to mining without amps again to compare.
 
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Storm Souza

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Gratz Leeloo !!!

I think MA should create more UL Finders. Curious to see the costs of these Enhancers in long run.
 

LeelooM

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Gratz Leeloo !!!

I think MA should create more UL Finders. Curious to see the costs of these Enhancers in long run.
ty ty ty :)

Average brake when using 10 all the time in 100 drops :

For enm = 2 breaks
For ores = 4 breaks
For ores and enm = 6 breaks
For enm/ores/trea = 8 breaks
 
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