finder range affects HR and size of claim?

Magnus Mag

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we know that indoor mining gives lower radius, higher claim sizes and lower hit rate..



if we use for example Omegaton Detectonator MD-10 with 53m range do we get lower HR and higher claim size planetside also, compared to for example Finder F-105 with 55m range?

and do range enhancers lower size but make hit rate higher?
 
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trance

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i have an other question.

I saw we have some finder with 22 m range. Is the range of this finder 11 m at foma or 22 m?
 

Satans

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if we use for example Omegaton Detectonator MD-10 with 53m range do we get lower HR and higher claim size planetside also, compared to for example Finder F-105 with 55m range?

and do range enhancers lower size but make hit rate higher?
Yes, in theory you do get lower HR and bigger claims but on planet, the difference is hardly noticeable. Not sure if anyone has done tests regarding range. Would be nice to see data comparison when comparing two different finder ranges... For proper testing would have to do unamped runs on FOMA and note the claimsize.

Interesting question about the enhancers though. I've used some before and didn't pay enough attention to the claim size difference on FOMA. But my guess, is that they should only increase the range and the extra claim size from low range stays. Otherwise, there is no point in using the range enhancers unless you gamble with lv13 amp's on foma and you care about hitrate.


i have an other question.

I saw we have some finder with 22 m range. Is the range of this finder 11 m at foma or 22 m?

What finder is that? :eek: first time hearing about it
 

Magnus Mag

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ty for your opinion.

you speak about foma, you think its the same planetside?
 

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well it affects hit rate for sure, size of claim is a lot harder to be certain off.
 

Neil Stockton

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This is also a question I had a for a long time. I won't go into particulars on the data, but I can definitively say that finders with bigger range will get higher hit rates, but the average claim size is not affected. Before I saw the data myself I wouldn't have believed it, so I understand if you're skeptical.

This effect is separate from the indoor mining system in which reduced radius correlates with increased claim size. If you could (somehow) have a finder with only 22m range on planet, you would simply get a horrible return; average claim size would not be bigger than with a 55m finder. In other words, indoor mining claims are not bigger just because the finder radius has been reduced.

I won't explicitly state all the consequences of this phenomenon, except as it relates to range enhancers. They will increase your hit rate and TT return, but they will have no affect on your average claim size.

So, a high tier finder can produce killer TT returns... but do the calculations to make sure it's worthwhile to use the number of range enhancers you want to use for your particular application. Because they're expensive, range enhancers are best reserved for when you're using big amps.
 
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ty for your opinion.

you speak about foma, you think its the same planetside?

Hitrate is a tricky thing to discuss, because on planet you can increase your hit-rate by using 3 different finders and double-bombing at correct ranges with the correct depth finder (does not affect TT returns). That doesn't exactly work the same way on FOMA, at least not when I've done tests.

All I can say, is that someone brave enough needs to do some logs :)



This effect is separate from the indoor mining system in which reduced radius correlates with increased claim size. If you could (somehow) have a finder with only 22m range on planet, you would simply get a horrible return; average claim size would not be bigger than with a 55m
Horrible TT returns will increase your eventual claims (you get 90% TT return on the long run anyway). Sooner or later after a bad TT return cycle, you will global or HOF, thus increased claim size
 

Neil Stockton

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Hitrate is a tricky thing to discuss, because on planet you can increase your hit-rate by using 3 different finders and double-bombing at correct ranges with the correct depth finder (does not affect TT returns).
No you can't.

Horrible TT returns will increase your eventual claims (you get 90% TT return on the long run anyway). Sooner or later after a bad TT return cycle, you will global or HOF, thus increased claim size
No, you wouldn't. For my hypothetical example of using a finder that had a 22m radius on planet, you would probably get around 13% returns. That's long term.
 
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Satans

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No you can't.


No, for my hypothetical example, you would probably get around 20% returns. That's long term.

Yes you can but I wont argue.


20% TT returns on the long run? I'll disregard that statement until someone shows me a good detailed 20k TT cycle spreadsheet.
 

Neil Stockton

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20% TT returns on the long run? I'll disregard that statement until someone shows me a good detailed 20k TT cycle spreadsheet.
Go back and read what I wrote. You obviously aren't getting that it was a hypothetical and impossible situation.

TT returns to do automatically adjust higher just because you did badly before... no personal loot pool, remember?
 

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Go back and read what I wrote. You obviously aren't getting that it was a hypothetical and impossible situation.

TT returns to do automatically adjust higher just because you did badly before... no personal loot pool, remember?

Then why hypothesise about things that are nearly impossible in-game?


Yes, according to MA there are no loot-pools and thus the 90% is a coincidence and a lie at the same time ;)
 

forgo

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The smaller range will boost the claims, and perhaps is tied to economy of the actual TT decay, I should emphasize slightly. If you look at the description on the md-x0 series, it backs this up. I assume the hit rate would be slightly lower as a result as well, and the tradeoff.

I believe it boosts them approximately .009% per .5 Meters. Given a range of 53-55. with .036% max on a 53 range finder.


Larger radius, such as boosted with range enhancers will boost the hit rate, at a slightly lower average claim size. (talking pecs /fractions of claim differences, which of course add up over time) Probably similar .009% per .5 meters though the ranges can be alot larger at this point so its hard to say how much. Like everything this probably decays, like a stacking penalty and a skill curve.

Trance - if you are on FOMA or HELL or anywhere that is indoor mining boosted, the finder I believe will reflect the smaller range when there. Not the normal range, which will be reflected on Caly.

That is my understanding anyhow.
 

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Just curious...

By how much does "indoor mining logic" reduce the range of a finder anyway?

We all know that it does reduce the range of the finder...but there never was any official statement that states how much it got reduced, was there? (Like say 50% of finder range? Or 33.333%? Or something like that...)
 

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Just curious...

By how much does "indoor mining logic" reduce the range of a finder anyway?

We all know that it does reduce the range of the finder...but there never was any official statement that states how much it got reduced, was there? (Like say 50% of finder range? Or 33.333%? Or something like that...)
New feature (I think, at least I don't recall seeing it before a recent VU). When you're in the indoor area, get info on a finder and you'll see the reduced range. A normal 55.0m finder will be 22.0m, so it's 40% of the above-ground radius, or 16% of the above-ground circle in area.
 
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GradenFoss

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Basic math would suggest that with half the search radius you cover a fourth of the search area... :dunno:
 

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Just curious...

By how much does "indoor mining logic" reduce the range of a finder anyway?

We all know that it does reduce the range of the finder...but there never was any official statement that states how much it got reduced, was there? (Like say 50% of finder range? Or 33.333%? Or something like that...)
There used to be (in 2006 when I started) a tutorial message received the first time you equipped a finder on CND (now FOMA), which at the time was the only 'indoor' mining area, that the range (ie the radius of the search area) was reduced to 40% of normal range.

I don't know if this tutorial message is still issued.
 

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I want to ask if i have a finder with 22 m range and have it on tier 10 with enhancers so it becomes "lets say" 55 m range will the claims become smaller because my finder now has 55 m range and not 22m.

:scratch2::scratch2::scratch2:

( The logic would be that the size of the findings should not be less just because I have a better chance because I cover a larger area and thats is because i dont use a 55 m range finder i have one 22 m finder with enhancers ).
 
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Neil Stockton

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I want to ask if i have a finder with 22 m range and have it on tier 10 with enhancers so it becomes "lets say" 55 m range will the claims become smaller because my finder now has 55 m range and not 22m.

:scratch2::scratch2::scratch2:

( The logic would be that the size of the findings should not be less just because I have a better chance because I cover a larger area and thats is because i dont use a 55 m range finder i have one 22 m finder with enhancers ).
The claims would not change size as you add range enhancers. Adding enhancers will increase your hit rate and result in a higher TT return.
 

trance

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What finder is that? :eek: first time hearing about it
Terra Master 4 shows Range = 22m at hell shop

wondering is that then 11m at foma or hell?

Oh, i just saw now, that my 106 show the same! so everything ok :)
 
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sawachika

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Terra Master 4 shows Range = 22m at hell shop

wondering is that then 11m at foma or hell?

Oh, i just saw now, that my 106 show the same! so everything ok :)
That's probably because hell shop is a part of hell...and hence the reduced range applies...(indoor mining logic).
 

Magnus Mag

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I want to ask if i have a finder with 22 m range and have it on tier 10 with enhancers so it becomes "lets say" 55 m range will the claims become smaller because my finder now has 55 m range and not 22m.

:scratch2::scratch2::scratch2:

( The logic would be that the size of the findings should not be less just because I have a better chance because I cover a larger area and thats is because i dont use a 55 m range finder i have one 22 m finder with enhancers ).
the question is are the claims already in earth or only appear on probe dropped...if they already in earth higher range means higher covered area.

if they created on probe dropped i thought range is like quant-conditiion slider in crafting.

but neil stated that claim size doesn't change (only indoor-planetside)...

if you tested this Neil, how did you do it? compared claim sizes (like II,V etc) or ped extracted each claim?
 

Neil Stockton

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the question is are the claims already in earth or only appear on probe dropped...if they already in earth higher range means higher covered area.

if they created on probe dropped i thought range is like quant-conditiion slider in crafting.

but neil stated that claim size doesn't change (only indoor-planetside)...

if you tested this Neil, how did you do it? compared claim sizes (like II,V etc) or ped extracted each claim?
Yes claims are already in the ground before you probe. All they have is X,Y coordinates, no depth and no mineral identity until discovered. If you want to do the test, take out a gang of friends, stand in the same spot and drop your probes one after the other. Only the first person to drop will find the claim. If another person finds a claim, it will always be the very next person to drop, and the claim will always be farther out from the drop point (except in very rare cases where a claim spawns during your test). This shows that claims are actually in the ground, shared between all miners, not generated on drop.

You can test if claims have depth while "in the ground" by doing the same test as above, except use finders of different depths. The results will be the same... miners, no matter their depth, share the same "claims". The depth, and therefore mineral identity, are only generated when you discover the claim.

If you load up a finder full of range enhancers and compare claim sizes, you'll see that the average hit rate rises, and the TT return correspondingly rises. My own tests on range vs claim size were done a little differently, in a way that's not easily repeatable.

But a good way to test range vs claim size would be like this:

Mine as normal, but use a random choice generator like this one to choose which finder to use for that drop. Use the Z1 (55m, 1.5 decay), island Z1 (55m, .75 decay), and the MD-10 (53m, 1 decay). 53m vs 55m means a 7% difference in area, so that should be noticeable in claim size, if claim size is effected and if you do enough drops. Record the exact ped sizes of every claim you get. Record enm and ore data separately, of course. Treat all the finders the same, so make sure you get to your location first, before choosing the finder, and dig up claims the same way after each drop. After you've got enough drops (I'm guessing 1000 drops for each finder would be enough). Look at the median claim size and the distributions. The Z1 vs Island Z1 controls for finder decay. I'd do the test in the island area where it's all lyst and oil. This will make any potential size effects easier to spot.
 
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JammEEr23

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Your post reminded me of my first experience if to speak about hunting, I was trying to buy a rangefinder but I didn't know where I should buy it, so I used Google in order to find a suitable site but unfortunately I didn't find anything, I even asked my family about it, but they couldn't help me. One day, I met my friend who likes hunting too, and he advised me to use this site: https://www.atncorp.com/range-finder , he said that here he bought some rangefinders and I might find something there. I bought laserballistics 1000 and I'm pleased with it, I've never had any issues with it.
 
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