Fix space logout exploit

xxPriestxx

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I fully realize writing this that many people will immediately disagree and probably even flame this post, mainly since it is coming from a pirate's point of view. However, I ask that you think about it objectively.

In my opinion... the single most crucial thing for MA to do to both "fix" some of the significant problems with this game today, and simultaneously stimulate the economy is one single action: fix the logout exploit in space.

Why do I call this an exploit? Because MA has called it an exploit themselves, and has stated approximately 8 months ago that they planned to solve this in an upcoming VU. For those that don't know, essentially you get on a big ship warp, log out your avatar, and therefore all of your stackables are for the most part safe. Most of the "professional" transport services operating today will instruct all of their passengers to do this, even going so far as running external webchats etc. to tell their passengers when they can log back on. So, plain and simple this is an unintended exploit, and I'm sorry if that statement offends you but it's true. With that out of the way....

It's no secret that MU (markup) is in a complete and total dismal state of failure right now. Most things do not have any markup to speak of, and it wasn't always that way. In fact, MU is one of the ONLY ways average players can hope to at least sometimes turn a profit or at least do better. It's also one of the only elements in the game that cannot be controlled by the algorithms and programming, read: an edge for human players. And, this is why people are selling off crafting skills, etc etc etc. MU is a vital part of the game, and right now it's dying off into obscurity.

Think about also, the premise of the game. Planet partners... different environments with different resources. Think about the past visions (promises actually) of space missions, transport missions, hangars, etc. all of which never took place. I think part of the reason for that, is there is almost no point right now to do that.

So what am I talking about? I'm strongly suggesting that "correcting" the logout exploit will stimulate the economy, auto-correct markup issues in several domains, and add more depth to the game than is currently available. Why?

If this happens, all of a sudden all of the fleets and space transport services (and their passengers) will have to think differently about things. Realistically, they would have to hire protection. Meaning, they will have to charge more (and already should be actually... but that's another point). Meaning, moving things becomes more expensive for everyone and exponentially riskier. Meaning, when I go to sell my goods on another planet, I have to charge more than I do currently. I can also sweeten the deal and almost set the price if I'm one of the few moving alternative ingots to caly for example. Also, not everyone who is moving stuff today will continue to do it.

This means traders can charge and pay more, and it also means your average joe hunting or mining can sell their small stacks for more MU because of the few who are moving it in space in large quantities.

This opens up "jobs" in space, even more than today and adds the possibility of an actual universe where different activities on different planets actually matter and become possible.

So I realize a lot of people will immediately go - no that would suck, you stupid pirates just want more chance at loot. And while that is true... I can assure you that this thought/point existed long before I started pirating and in fact the failure of MA to fix this is the main reason I chose to do this instead of something else like moving passengers around.

Personally, I won't hold my breath. I believe if MA had any intention of actually doing this we would have seen it already.

More than likely we'll all keep doing the same thing we are now, which is playing a fragmented game with fragmented storylines, only moving planets when we feel like doing something different and looking at different pixels and getting there through broken space with virtually no point other than a longggggggggg hallway we have to walk down to get somewhere else. Then we can TT all our stuff, or try and sell it for 101%:wtg::wtg::wtg:

Cheers.
 

RobBuona

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If you think fixing this "exploit" would make things better (and not worse), you need a serious reality check.

I wonder if that fact that you're a pirate has anything to do with the fact that you think this ridiculous suggestion is a good idea? :)
 

GoNi

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Transport stackables safe:

Offer a stack at auction Planet A
Fly to planet B (nothing to lose, no stackables in inventory) f.u. pirate, nothing to gain from me
Arrive at Planet B, take buyout of your offer at Planet A, pay 3 PED transport fee, thats it (all safe!)

No need to logout exploit xD

Who still didn´t learn that and still use MS service to be safe (what in fact isn´t safe at all), just fail !

The only reason to use MS service - warp is faster!
 

xxPriestxx

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If you think fixing this "exploit" would make things better (and not worse), you need a serious reality check.
It's a very simple fix. The avatar stays in space where they logged out, just like in any other ship if you logout. How would this make things worse? You offered a very compelling argument but can you expand a bit?
 

xxPriestxx

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Transport stackables safe:

Offer a stack at auction Planet A
Fly to planet B (nothing to lose, no stackables in inventory) f.u. pirate, nothing to gain from me
Arrive at Planet B, take buyout of your offer at Planet A, pay 3 PED transport fee, thats it (all safe!)

No need to logout exploit xD

Who still didn´t learn that and still use MS service to be safe (what in fact isn´t safe at all), just fail !

The only reason to use MS service - warp is faster!
I think this is fairly well known as well, and certainly another option ... though with several limitations. (i.e. - if you're wanting to transport many different types of goods, it could take you hours to set all that up.) But presumably they would fix this exploit also. :)
 

GoNi

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It's a very simple fix. The avatar stays in space where they logged out
Indeed a very simple fix, and actually I can´t care less if it comes or not for 3 reasons:

Never have lootables on me in space, so can´t care less about pirates
Never used logout bug myself, so it doesn´t hurt me anywhere not to be able to do it.
If CTD in space, still nothing to loot from me even if pirate is close to kill my avatar befor dying from void.

From my point of view nothing against a fix :)
 

xxPriestxx

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Indeed a very simple fix, and actually I can´t care less if it comes or not for 3 reasons:

Never have lootables on me in space, so can´t care less about pirates
Never used logout bug myself, so it doesn´t hurt me anywhere not to be able to do it.
If CTD in space, still nothing to loot from me even if pirate is close to kill my avatar befor dying from void.

From my point of view nothing against a fix :)
And this is true for the vast majority of people that play this game. What I'm really talking about is the universal economy... one of the main reasons MU is low is because there are no incentives, or risk, to move goods from planet to planet (for the smugglers it's too easy currently).

If this were to happen though, you... as the person that never moves loot in space will be able to sell at least certain things for a much better MU planetside because of those in space moving them.
 

GoNi

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But presumably they would fix this exploit also. :)
This is not an exploit it is an option you pay for (transport fee).

Looking at Developers Notes when this got implemented, there should be transport missions where space pilots can make back the money paid for transport fees.

Fact: Transport Missions still not available, so this sucks.

Claiming use of auction and pay fee twice (set up auction fee) and transport fee later, is an exploit ????
Nobrainer!

And you already mentioned it, if someone wants to transport many different stacks, it can become fairly expencive transport compared to MS service.
10 stacks = 5 PED auction fee to create + 30 PED transport fee
MS service 10 PED

So people paying 3.5x the MS service cost just to be safe from pirats is exploiters.

For that statement you really deserve a - REP !
 

xxPriestxx

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I'm just saying the interplanetary auction is not working as MA designed it, with the lack of transport missions (which involves ships flying through space) etc. etc.. I'm not saying people who choose to auction off their own goods and pay for it etc. are using an exploit.
 
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id go a step further: how about fixing all space exploits? but i guess the pirates will come crying again after

for example: a pirate c an stay safe in the SS safe zone and can shoot at players who are outside of it. this means that when both players have the same skill and hit every shot the one staying in the safe zone (the pirate) will always win the fight. clearly an exploit. should change it so that both players have to be outside of the safe zone for example like 30 seconds, so the same as when entering the safe zone. why make one instant and one not? so either have a delay on leaving it or make it instant when entering it.

or how about all starting at the SS in space despite leaving planet at tons of different locations. doesnt make any sense. let them spawn somewhere outside of the SS close to the planet enter zone depending on where they left the planet, or just randomly somewhere there. makes a lot more sense but then the pirate has to be flying the line up and down to find someone. not a good change either, right?

both of these should be implemented, as they make sense
 

xxPriestxx

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id go a step further: how about fixing all space exploits? but i guess the pirates will come crying again after

for example: a pirate c an stay safe in the SS safe zone and can shoot at players who are outside of it. this means that when both players have the same skill and hit every shot the one staying in the safe zone (the pirate) will always win the fight. clearly an exploit. should change it so that both players have to be outside of the safe zone for example like 30 seconds, so the same as when entering the safe zone. why make one instant and one not? so either have a delay on leaving it or make it instant when entering it.

or how about all starting at the SS in space despite leaving planet at tons of different locations. doesnt make any sense. let them spawn somewhere outside of the SS close to the planet enter zone depending on where they left the planet, or just randomly somewhere there. makes a lot more sense but then the pirate has to be flying the line up and down to find someone. not a good change either, right?

both of these should be implemented, as they make sense
You can't shoot someone from the safe zone, the shots do not count. You can however shoot them for a period of time if you were both in PVP and the combat began in PVP... which might be what you're referring to. I believe this is to prevent people from simply going back into safe zone repeatedly. With that said, I don't actually disagree with you.. if you look at other games, there is often a policed safe zone where any act of hostility means certain death to the attacker. I think that would be an interesting element. I might not personally like it, but I can see it making sense.
 

Darth Revan

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This will not fix the economy considering majority of transactions are done on Caly.
They should just implement planet to planet teleporters already, get rid of the damn pirates.

Or better yet, implement the function where pirates cannot go back into safe space for an hour after shooting someone down.....make it fair to everyone!
 

xxPriestxx

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This will not fix the economy considering majority of transactions are done on Caly.
They should just implement planet to planet teleporters already, get rid of the damn pirates.

Or better yet, implement the function where pirates cannot go back into safe space for an hour after shooting someone down.....make it fair to everyone!
I am all for - if they make it "harder" on those trying to transport, implementing things to make it "harder" for pirates also. Risk/reward. Take Elite dangerous as an example, hostile acts earn you a wanted level which places a bounty on your head that other people can collect, and means the bots sitting at stations will also shoot you down for a period of time. That would be interesting actually... would give Morgoth a chance to make a profit! :).

The reason most of the transactions are done on Caly is because it has the most traffic... this is one of the reasons planet to planet transport spiking MU will be good for Caly, and it will also open up the market on other planets. If it's harder to get stuff to Caly, Ark auction will become more lively, etc..

Planet to planet teleporters are a very bad idea in my opinion for many reasons... but a different subject.
 

GoNi

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I am all for - if they make it "harder" on those trying to transport, implementing things to make it "harder" for pirates also. Risk/reward. Take Elite dangerous as an example, hostile acts earn you a wanted level which places a bounty on your head that other people can collect, and means the bots sitting at stations will also shoot you down for a period of time. That would be interesting actually... would give Morgoth a chance to make a profit! :).

Planet to planet teleporters are a very bad idea in my opinion for many reasons... but a different subject.
LOL

Headhunt bounty paid out of my own pockets onto a pirate, will just lead to pirate A kills pirate B, both share the bounty and me who placed the bounty lost only.

This happens in other games aswell! But who cares, no RCE in those other games!
 

mastermesh

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They should just implement planet to planet teleporters already, get rid of the damn pirates.


AHHHHMEN... Lootius be praised!

(Bring back the hangar owners
t.p. fee for interplanetary hops that once existed and allow all t.p. chips, including level I to do the hops. Lots of missions on lots of planets we all need to do and hour long slow boats keep em from happening quickly... also makes having estates on different planets a pain in the a$$)...
 
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Sionkiewicz

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There are many Space issues that would need to be rectified before they could rework Logout. let me list a few below..

1 - Fix the range on all Spacecraft guns to meet with Reality. The range of Quad guns should not be longer than any Warp vehicle. They can generate more power and should have a longer range. Mothership guns should be double what a Quad can do, not be less.

2. Fix the vehicle speed abilities. A Starfinder/Pathfinder should not be as slow as a Mothership.

2. Enable entry into space in such a way that some one could not just camp the Space Station and wait for his/her victims. Space is suppose to be vast yet MA funnels everyone up to the pirate's laps to be shot down or camped. Let's make it more random and over a larger area so that someone would need to patrol and search for victims.​

I'm sure that many others would chime in with items for this list but suffice it to say that before we resolve this "issue" as you may call it, MA would need to level the playing field ensure the scales are not tilted too much towards the pirates.
 

xxPriestxx

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There are many Space issues that would need to be rectified before they could rework Logout. let me list a few below..

1 - Fix the range on all Spacecraft guns to meet with Reality. The range of Quad guns should not be longer than any Warp vehicle. They can generate more power and should have a longer range. Mothership guns should be double what a Quad can do, not be less.

2. Fix the vehicle speed abilities. A Starfinder/Pathfinder should not be as slow as a Mothership.

2. Enable entry into space in such a way that some one could not just camp the Space Station and wait for his/her victims. Space is suppose to be vast yet MA funnels everyone up to the pirate's laps to be shot down or camped. Let's make it more random and over a larger area so that someone would need to patrol and search for victims.​

I'm sure that many others would chime in with items for this list but suffice it to say that before we resolve this "issue" as you may call it, MA would need to level the playing field ensure the scales are not tilted too much towards the pirates.
I agree... with all of those things.
 

LangeTobias

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How hard can it be,

If you are on a ship with warp, and you log out.. if you are logged out as the ship warps... your avatar gets teleported to the planets space station.


Why not leave him in the space floating?

imagine some one actually trying to smuggle and game CTD... it is way better for every one if that avatar gets teleported to his space station instead of risking being fcked by a major annoying feature.
 

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I'm the opposite of pirate, and I agree. I have been crossing EU space in quads for years - sometimes traveling safe, sometimes hunting, sometimes smuggling, occasionally engaging a pirate. When I did travel via MS a few times, I never logged out, (wouldn't want to miss the ride) but it was the norm.

Finished products are safe to transport, but when the mats are safe to transport too, production moves with them. For the vision of EU - independent planets connected and separated by space, it is antithetical to let all resources flow freely to a single market.

The logout exploit destroys all transport risk and flattens the economy into a single market. This has been a factor in the difficulty new planets have in establishing working local economies. Why try to sell resources locally, when you can take a risk free-trip to the largest market? It has also been a factor in curtailing Space gameplay. I suspect it was easiest to let it slide while Space has so many other issues, but I have always played as if it is inevitable - when Space gets its due, logout goes away.


So when the big Space update finally comes, I hope this comes with it.


Peace, Miles
 

aia

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It's no secret that MU (markup) is in a complete and total dismal state of failure right now. Most things do not have any markup to speak of, and it wasn't always that way. In fact, MU is one of the ONLY ways average players can hope to at least sometimes turn a profit or at least do better.
I don't Think Adding COSTs to travel in space is an easy way to increase the markup that is paid to the hunter or miner - rather the buyer of the finished Product. I want to remind about something: When I begun, the markup of animal hides was 190%. It stable so for a fairly long time. Then, someone at MA balancing department thought it would be great to increase markups for wools also, so wool drops was drastically reduced. Guess what happened? Practically everyone who did low-end tailoring stopped (because they weren't able to get decent amounts of wool), so they didn't buy animal hides either. And in a couple of months, animal hides Went down from 190% to say 105%.

It's also one of the only elements in the game that cannot be controlled by the algorithms and programming, read: an edge for human players. And, this is why people are selling off crafting skills, etc etc etc. MU is a vital part of the game, and right now it's dying off into obscurity.
I Think there are fairly easy algorithms for items like CLD and AUD that auction droids can use... (Those who visited New Oxford some year ago know what I mean.) One pretty obvious thing is that crafters are on the other side of the trading chain; if markup of materials goes up, then crafted items will also go up in price, and it will be harder to sell them.

Sure there are materials that logially would go upp with tougher conditions in space such as generic fuse, the materials for welding wire and such. But if you Think economy would be better if you introduced higher COSTs between buyer and seller, well it would be good for those middle-hands, but it would be harder for a normall player to sell at same price, and cost would go up for the crafter.

Another fairly obvious thing is that making it harder to move stackables through space won't have much impact on calypso, or possibly Arkadia. Smaller planets such as Toulan and Next Island on the other hand would probably have less activity in areas like crafting (if it gets more expensive to get materials from Calypso). Well, unless a good miner starts to mine. But then we have th eproblem of Selling it as it's practically auction that's availible to sell on for normal players and auction offers expire after a week.

Another thing (thinking a bit selfishly here) is that it's going to be tougher to find shareable warp space travel, if smaller services goes out of business (if their customers either start to use a better service).

It's only me, but somethings I just feel a bit mad or something, when I look at items in auction, and most of the interesting are re-posted with a higher start bid than current market value. Well, sometimes I get mad and most often I just sigh. It's like, a old normal player (let's say a hunter) posts his apartment in auction, and it gets sold for 800 ped. Then buyer re-posts it at 2000 ped start bid. In this case, it will be the middle-hand who gets most of the Money, nor the original seller (who migh "deserve" the Money more).

I should add, I generally don't log out on warp trips. Well unless it's a ride that would take several hours or I log out to releive lag. I Think, if the "Log out protection" is removed, it would be good if it doesn't mean that the passengers who were aboard would be marooned at space station (where shop got shot down).
 

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In my opinion... the single most crucial thing for MA to do to both "fix" some of the significant problems with this game today, and simultaneously stimulate the economy is one single action: fix the logout exploit in space.
Simply put, MA will not fix this issue due to you. Space is a big mess and MA knows it. One of the main issues they had with people leaving the game was due to you. So to fix this issue they opened up planet to planet trading through the AH. If anything I would have thought you be crying your little head off about this since this is the only reason you are 'loosing' so much money these days with only a bit here and there from the noobs who have no idea what space is and how it works.

Yes, MU is bad, very bad, these days but your idea wouldn't help but only kill the game faster.
 

xxPriestxx

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Simply put, MA will not fix this issue due to you. Space is a big mess and MA knows it. One of the main issues they had with people leaving the game was due to you. So to fix this issue they opened up planet to planet trading through the AH. If anything I would have thought you be crying your little head off about this since this is the only reason you are 'loosing' so much money these days with only a bit here and there from the noobs who have no idea what space is and how it works.

Yes, MU is bad, very bad, these days but your idea wouldn't help but only kill the game faster.
It's a pretty big assumption to say that I'm losing PED. In fact, I don't know any pirates who are in the negative. But that's sort of beside the point. MA has designed the game for space to be a PVP area, intentionally. Everyone gets the warning pop up as they enter space. With that known, I'm discussing an exploit in that system. Besides, MA has already said they plan to fix it (because it's not by design), and it's not due to me or any other pirate. We, as much as you may hate it, are part of the game.... just like people roaming around in pvp areas planetside are a part of the game.
 

Alukat123

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It's no secret that MU (markup) is in a complete and total dismal state of failure right now. Most things do not have any markup to speak of, and it wasn't always that way.
that is players fault.

Situation 1 - What i've seen this week (and observe quite often):

demand for an item: 400 units in a week
current stock in auction: 12 units
next guy places his 60 units: below the weekly MU

The supply being way less than the demand and people still droping MU, that's something MA can't fix.

Situation 2 - what i observe sometimes too:

demand for the item: 300 units in a week
current stock in auction: 40 units
next guy puts up 15 stacks with various stack sizes, total about 1000 units or even more, min-bid set to the lowest possible

people overstocking, setting too low min-bid and by this crashing MU, not MA's fault either.

Situation 3 - obeserved several times too:

demand for the item: 0,25 units a week
when it sells it does sell for good MU, so re-enlisting it for good MU.
other guy comes along, doesn't know the market, sets min-bid to 1 PED and BO to good MU, but it sells for 1 PED because he gave the buyer the option to get it that cheap.
MU eventually droped by up 85% (relative)

people setting too low min-bid, not doing proper market research, that's not MA's fault.

There's nothing MA can do about MU, especially when players just keep doing quite stupid stuff like listed above...
 
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xxPriestxx

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that is players fault.

Situation 1 - What i've seen this week (and observe quite often):

demand for an item: 400 units in a week
current stock in auction: 12 units
next guy places his 60 units: below the weekly MU

The supply being way less than the demand and people still droping MU, that's something MA can't fix.

Situation 2 - what i observe sometimes too:

demand for the item: 300 units in a week
current stock in auction: 40 units
next guy puts up 15 stacks with various stack sizes, total about 1000 units or even more, min-bid set to the lowest possible

people overstocking, setting too low min-bid and by this crashing MU, not MA's fault either.

Situation 3 - obeserved several times too:

demand for the item: 0,25 units a week
when it sells it does sell for good MU, so re-enlisting it for good MU.
other guy comes along, doesn't know the market, sets min-bid to 1 PED and BO to good MU, but it sells for 1 PED because he gave the buyer the option to get it that cheap.
MU eventually droped by up 85% (relative)

people setting too low min-bid, not doing proper market research, that's not MA's fault.

There's nothing MA can do about MU, especially when players just keep doing quite stupid stuff like listed above...
Agreed.... in fact I think I made a post in the past bitching about this exact thing. But, as Miles points out above right now it is a flat/single market with no risk or reward in transporting anything. If you change that, and it becomes a more dynamic market... it forces smarter decisions with MU. The simplest example is - those transporting large amounts of anything only found on one planet, to another planet (probably Caly) can dictate the flow in that market for that item. If it becomes riskier to do this, they will have to charge more MU.. which in turn helps the passive players or the ones only doing planetside activities to be able to charge more MU. And it honestly puts the competition where it should be, at the end user of the item those materials are used to make. Those prices will probably go up as well... so really you have to wonder why MA DOESNT fix this. It's good for them too...
 

Alukat123

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But, as Miles points out above right now it is a flat/single market with no risk or reward in transporting anything. If you change that, and it becomes a more dynamic market... it forces smarter decisions with MU. The simplest example is - those transporting large amounts of anything only found on one planet, to another planet (probably Caly) can dictate the flow in that market for that item. If it becomes riskier to do this, they will have to charge more MU.. which in turn helps the passive players or the ones only doing planetside activities to be able to charge more MU. And it honestly puts the competition where it should be, at the end user of the item those materials are used to make. Those prices will probably go up as well... so really you have to wonder why MA DOESNT fix this. It's good for them too...
Or they may have to charge less MU, because instead of cheaply warping huge quantities and then sell for "high" MU, they do need to discount the x PED for auction transportation to remain competetive. So this may reduce the MU of universe-wide stuff even further.

Then there's still the option that the whole economy entirely shifts and crafters, who craft with planet-specific materials, just go to that planet, do their crafting there and then fly with the non-lootable crafted items to the planet they want to sell on.
 

thoreau

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Open the auction up to free transport.

This will allow players on every planet to buy and sell freely. Increased access will improve markups.

Then deal with space by allowing societies to battle for the right to control space stations. Think landgrab in space) Societies would be able to charge and collect taxes for shops, docking fees, etc.
 

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I have said it before, it's the lack of decay that is the big problem. Items need to have a shorter life time to increase the demand on crafting and the demand in general.
 

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Janko SuperKanjo vd Haak
It's a pretty big assumption to say that I'm losing PED. In fact, I don't know any pirates who are in the negative. But that's sort of beside the point. MA has designed the game for space to be a PVP area, intentionally. Everyone gets the warning pop up as they enter space. With that known, I'm discussing an exploit in that system. Besides, MA has already said they plan to fix it (because it's not by design), and it's not due to me or any other pirate. We, as much as you may hate it, are part of the game.... just like people roaming around in pvp areas planetside are a part of the game.
I like the idea of piracy, but the suggestion of not making use of the "log-out bug" again will only kill economy on planets even more.

That being said, it's my opinion that pirates already have the best position. They shoot, loot and move out to empty pockets again. Same as with normal lootable pvp zones. Why not even the risk? A pirate can only loot the amount he has on him as lootable?

But that isn't a suggestion for what this thread is about. To fix the economy would take a long long time. UL stuff should become rare and all should rely on crafters, that on their turn rely on miners and hunters for materials. All 3 parties could hunt for markup....

And just remove the damn EP, but probably already to late for that. If people want to gamble fine, but it could help the economy if it wasn't with a tt material.
 
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