Fix space logout exploit

Haruto Rat

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'twas 2014, when the sky was greener and grass stronger...

[C]hanges will be made in upcoming Version Updates to address currently existing issues and loopholes that allow for risk-free transport of goods and materials through space.
While many statements regarding "upcoming Version Updates" have never come true, I'm not aware of any statement that would have canceled this one.
 

Darth Revan

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There is nothing wrong with logging out on an MS and logging in again. Plenty of legitimate reasons to do it, or it would be a simple thing to fix. Using logout to avoid the risk intended for space transport is the exploit, and coordinated communications outside of EU to facilitate use of the exploit demonstrates a deliberate manipulation of game mechanics.

A pirate scum using proximity-detection or speed bug, etc., etc., is also doing deliberate manipulation of game mechanics - which also should be fixed. Instead of whining about how deliberately logging out to avoid risk not is not an exploit - it seems widely accepted as being ok for now - the good guys should go hassle the shit out them pirate scum in-game, where it belongs. Take the high road, no?


Peace, Miles
Agree that logging out in itself is not an exploit....however can be essentially used as one.
Unlikely that MA will change this feature, though...there would be more of a s**tstorm if they did that.

Maybe the pirates are going about this the wrong way. Instead of complaining out the logout, why not petition to have motherships not be able to enter safe zones? I mean they have the guns, and can build their SI up and hire crews (generally for free), why not use all of that to make it so they can be attacked by pirates at anytime? Then that means anyone with loot has to risk going from mothership to planet or to space station, or pay mothership owners to protect them with their guns as they make their run for safety? Then having a logout feature wouldn't really matter as yes they can make majority of the trip at no risk but still have some risk.

In saying that, they would then have to make the gun range fair, motherships should atleast be able to shoot at the same range as a quad, heck even further range so that pirates have to work to get their prey?

I would also increase the safety range to include all around the planet so that motherships owners cant just drop of passengers to the planet themselves as many to right now.

Just a thought anyway, carry on people.
 

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There is nothing wrong with logging out on an MS and logging in again. Plenty of legitimate reasons to do it, or it would be a simple thing to fix.
Absolutely - for space to be anything other than a pirate infested travel corridor between planets this is a necessary mechanic. The fact that MA has never developed on this promise means that it's wasy for a lot of people to forget/ignore this.

Using logout to avoid the risk intended for space transport is the exploit, and coordinated communications outside of EU to facilitate use of the exploit demonstrates a deliberate manipulation of game mechanics.
I could agree, for arguments sake, with a slightly reformulated version of this:

Using logout to avoid the risk intended for space transport while on a point-to-point journey for the purpose of moving stackables through space using coordinated communications outside of EU is exploiting this otherwise needed game mechanic.

Your presentation is a lot better than the usual stagger/micjack/mcco whatever "dey be stealing our loot" threads.

Since exploiting this particular mechanic involves people simply speaking to each other outside of the game, there is no way for MA to address this without taking some action that admittedly closes the door to any further, real development of space as an actual region for gameplay.

In other words, if you have to be in a space station or planet side to log out safely, MA can add whatever they want to space it will never ever be any busier than PVP4.

A pirate scum using proximity-detection or speed bug, etc., etc., is also doing deliberate manipulation of game mechanics - which also should be fixed. Instead of whining about how deliberately logging out to avoid risk not is not an exploit - it seems widely accepted as being ok for now - the good guys should go hassle the shit out them pirate scum in-game, where it belongs. Take the high road, no?

Peace, Miles
Agreed. I'm like a tiny fly but have spent hours and hours up in space basically being an annoyance to pirates over the last few years.

Since most of the items that the pirates are known to exploit are literally obviously broken code and thus confinedd 100% to in-game issues, it seems like these would have a little higher priority for a dev team in any case.


'twas 2014, when the sky was greener and grass stronger...



While many statements regarding "upcoming Version Updates" have never come true, I'm not aware of any statement that would have canceled this one.
Yeah that's there but it's also three years after this started being an issue. In the time they have addressed issues regarding logout in smaller ships (the actual original issue), vehicle inventory in space, difficulty looting avatars from destroyed ships, and probably some other minor issues I'm forgetting.

It IS funny how MA have fixed so many bugs that people used to defend themselves, while allowing those that aid the predator to languish in game for years untouched. It almost makes it easy to see why some people would feel entitled.
 

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You do exactly do that every time you hit a high HoF that makes you profit vs TT input!

Do you really think a big ATH comes out of thin air?
NO, it is money lost by other players, you hit ATH you take other peoples money!

So where is the differnce, shooting someone in space/PvP4 to loot the few PED he is carrying directly, or gamble big and take 100k PED in your ATH from many others losing this 100k PED?

Thats what we all try to do in EU, take money from other players, one or the other way.
That is how the game is designed.

Sure there is different ways to do that:
Straight forward - lootable PvP
Gamble for ATH - get what others lost
Accept 90% return, but get MU for your good loots to make profit from those paying the MU
Simple trade, buy low sell for more.

NO matter how you turn it, the moment you manage to break even and start making profit, you take money from other players.
You can´t win from MA, you can only win from other players.

So where is any of this ethical better than the other thing?

Its a competition, win or lose easy as that.
Thank you for this.. :bowdown:

This is exactly what I said in my very first post of this thread.
And this is the part of the game that some people refuse to understand.

You are better than me whith Diplomacy.. :ahh:
 

~ Cirrus ~

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'twas 2014, when the sky was greener and grass stronger...

[C]hanges will be made in upcoming Version Updates to address currently existing issues and loopholes that allow for risk-free transport of goods and materials through space.

While many statements regarding "upcoming Version Updates" have never come true, I'm not aware of any statement that would have canceled this one.
Thanks, so it's just a matter of... time.
Let's hope it will be fixed before 2027. :rolleyes:
 

Alukat123

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And then there is another important question:
Stackables are used in crafting, so why you don´t craft at other planet and only transport the non lootable items?
Why must all crafting happen at Caly ?
because on other planets you will have BPs of their planet-specific stuff in the loot-pool. That planet-specific stuff is basically worthless thanks to armatrix weapons/amps....

So why would you want to craft on other planet, when all it does is crippling your income?

and since there's no point in farming planet-specific materials, because planet-specific guns/amps are too bad, why would you go hunting there?

MA did a very good job at collapsing other planets economy with their armatrix stuff...
 
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Atrax

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Hmm Ok then

Let's say I take $100 out of the bank, and head to the casino.

In one scenario, I go in, lose it on a slot machine, and the guy next to me wins $200. I'm ok with this. I've won before, good for him it's not my day.

In the other scenario, some asshole mugs me in the parking lot and takes my $100. He also damages my car and gets $20 off my buddy who was just hanging out (wasn't planning to gamble) and accidentally had money in his own wallet (what a moron right?).

Are you with me here, or does it seem like these two outcomes are the same to you? Does it look like I got the same value for my money either way?

What about my car? I've got to fix it now it's devalued. Gonna be on carfax lol.

What about my buddy? I know the EU answer is that people are known to get mugged in parking lots so it's his fault for leaving home with money. But really?

You guys crack me up. Keep on crying about all the good you're doing.

As for the thread topic, here's why I posted in the first place. To laugh at these miserable muggers and thieves trying to not only justify their hobby of molesting passers by using every exploit in the book and probably a few that haven't got published yet cry that someone else might take advantage of a useful game mechanic.

I answer to you guys saying the topic of this thread was supposed to be something else?

The economics of what would actually happen to most of the planet partners together with the future it would paint for space expansion pretty much guarantees these guys will still be crying about this in another 7 years, if we make it that far.
 

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The casino tells you ahead of time that they allow muggings in the parking lot.

Why would you ever go there and spend money there after that?
 

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Whatever MA do to 'fix space' will piss a lot of people off.


Probably why its been mostly left untouched.


:cool:
 

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Land Lootable: Small areas with high MU, everyone has to risk something (toxic shot) to even go in. You risk only what you want to bring out.

Space Lootable: Risk anything you want to bring in. Pkers risk zero. MA, "Oh noe how terrible better stay on caly and/or use one of the ships we sold for $$$$$"


So I'm just going to assume all you supporters are naive nubs that don't remember NVE's heyday or are in fact NVE alts (because most of them are already banned from the forums for using alts to make threads such as these.)

I say again:

"FUCK OFF PIRATE SCUM"


The current setup is costing the game players so some of the lowest forms of humans can steal a few bucks from the game. If you think this isn't a problem, go look up the history of NVE and the players you are defending. I'll wait.
 

Atrax

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The casino tells you ahead of time that they allow muggings in the parking lot.

Why would you ever go there and spend money there after that?
This! So Much This!!

No wonder it's longer and longer between logins, for so many of us.

At least they finally fixed the part where you could buy a nice gun and a few pills and start milking the TT for peds.

And even THAT caused less crying than 7 years worth of various (and the same) pirates complaining about people not having to pay them for buying a quad and a laser.

:lolup:

Edit: Especially Stagger's "guaranteed loot-generating" quad!! Poor guy.
 
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xxPriestxx

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In my opinion, the risk should be optional. Yes, you can say, you don't need to travel, well it's Entropia Universe.... And i think the risk should be equal, the pirates don't take the same risk. They wait in safety watching nearby and when they spot a target they go after them with nothing in their pockets... And after that they flee right back into safety....

So if you are saying the risk makes the fun, why don't pirates want this fun?
I think this is a common misconception. Yes, you'll see a number of us at a SS at any given time. There are many times we are not at a SS. We are at different places, at different times, for different reasons. I missed the part where because we shoot first, we have no risk. Anyone is free to fight back (and they do, and sometimes they win) at any time.
 

xxPriestxx

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Land Lootable: Small areas with high MU, everyone has to risk something (toxic shot) to even go in. You risk only what you want to bring out.

Space Lootable: Risk anything you want to bring in. Pkers risk zero. MA, "Oh noe how terrible better stay on caly and/or use one of the ships we sold for $$$$$"


So I'm just going to assume all you supporters are naive nubs that don't remember NVE's heyday or are in fact NVE alts (because most of them are already banned from the forums for using alts to make threads such as these.)

I say again:

"FUCK OFF PIRATE SCUM"


The current setup is costing the game players so some of the lowest forms of humans can steal a few bucks from the game. If you think this isn't a problem, go look up the history of NVE and the players you are defending. I'll wait.
I'm sorry... I am really, really having a hard time understanding what you're trying to get across. Can you say it a little more clearly?
 

Suza

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I think this is a common misconception. Yes, you'll see a number of us at a SS at any given time. There are many times we are not at a SS. We are at different places, at different times, for different reasons. I missed the part where because we shoot first, we have no risk. Anyone is free to fight back (and they do, and sometimes they win) at any time.
Some just outrun your sorry tails...
 

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Anyone is free to fight back
... or leave it because it's money they didn't plan on spending. It's like going out on a weekend and drinking exactly the amount of beer you intended to have, not giving in to peer pressure to binge. It's called self-control. Makes one boring in the eyes of the provocateurs and nobody cares but the pub owners and tax collectors.
 

bard119

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I missed the part where because we shoot first, we have no risk. Anyone is free to fight back (and they do, and sometimes they win) at any time.
Other players can fight back, yes - but what are you risking? Most pirates don't carry loot in space. Winning the battle would not result in an outcome other than Yippee! I can keep my own loot!
 

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Other players can fight back, yes - but what are you risking? Most pirates don't carry loot in space. Winning the battle would not result in an outcome other than Yippee! I can keep my own loot!
Neither do most non-pirates. The pirate who shoots you down is wasting peds most of the time...hmmm, hey, you know what, they might just be having fun playing the game - battling it out in space, the thrill of combat, the uncertainties of PVP - all while looking for enough loot to cover their costs, maybe get ahead. Sounds like another challenging way to play EU.

Plus, when they fight they get skills, and karma for their ship. Join in the fun and you will too. Or learn to be a better smuggler, it's a jungle out there. ;)

---

The first rule of risk-management: Never place a bet you can't afford to lose. That includes the value of items you are carrying that could be looted when you enter space.

---

Another little bit of advice; the only person enjoying your whine is the one stomping on your grapes.


Peace, Miles
 

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Neither do most non-pirates. The pirate who shoots you down is wasting peds most of the time...hmmm, hey, you know what, they might just be having fun playing the game - battling it out in space, the thrill of combat, the uncertainties of PVP - all while looking for enough loot to cover their costs, maybe get ahead. Sounds like another challenging way to play EU.

Plus, when they fight they get skills, and karma for their ship. Join in the fun and you will too. Or learn to be a better smuggler, it's a jungle out there. ;)

---

The first rule of risk-management: Never place a bet you can't afford to lose. That includes the value of items you are carrying that could be looted when you enter space.

---

Another little bit of advice; the only person enjoying your whine is the one stomping on your grapes.


Peace, Miles
Never heard a pirate giving back the items who stole....
You trolling and you challenge our nerves to push that red rep button!so far I didn't pushed that, because I had a friend who donate all of hes storage to me when he left to go back to EVE online...and was pirate!!! sigh! But this doesn't change my opinion of pirates activity in EU and is clearly a robbery (for fun as you claim).
...and don't "peace" with me :)

edit: still I'm not one of those who will support lootable space to be removed! I think it's adding thrilling in game and makes space more intriguing and interesting. (read this Thaddeus!)
 
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Miles

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Never heard a pirate giving back the items who stole....
You trolling and you challenge our nerves to push that red rep button!so far I didn't pushed that, because I had a friend who donate all of hes storage to me when he left to go back to EVE online...and was pirate!!! sigh! But this doesn't change my opinion of pirates activity in EU and is clearly a robbery (for fun as you claim).
...and don't "peace" with me :)

edit: still I'm not one of those who will support lootable space to be removed! I think it's adding thrilling in game and makes space more intriguing and interesting. (read this Venture!)

I'm not a pirate - I am an anti-pirate. I am smuggler, fair and square - in my quad, at risk right now - but both a risk I deem acceptable, and loss that would set me back, but not ruin me, if something goes wrong. One thing is for sure, I will not whine if some pirate finds me (unlikely) and loots me (much more likely). That's the rules of Space.

Please don't take offense, this is not about individuals, it's about viewpoints. I am of the pro-pvp-space-because-that's-the-whole-point-and-plus-can-be-fun side, which I am fairly certain is MA's side too.

I strongly disagree with the EU-is-reality-and-game-play-equals-crime crowd (feel free to choose a more charitable name for it) which I think suffers from faulty thinking and crowd makes us right attitude, which is why I push back.

Neg rep me if you want, but read all my posts - snarky and opinionated for sure, but usually reasoned and clear, offering ideas and help. Do I get exasperated and post when I shouldn't, sure (Oleg, you were right about that post) but that's something we all do from time to time.

I mean the peace thing - RL is all fucked up.

Miles
 

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I'm not a pirate - I am an anti-pirate. I am smuggler, fair and square - in my quad, at risk right now - but both a risk I deem acceptable, and loss that would set me back, but not ruin me, if something goes wrong. One thing is for sure, I will not whine if some pirate finds me (unlikely) and loots me (much more likely). That's the rules of Space.
This is the position of the strikebreaker who is responsible for keeping the pirates' hopes up. Of course there is more than one way to look at it and it's a choice. Your bold addendum however is like the people who quote scripture when they want to push a man-made design as a fact of nature.

Please don't take offense, this is not about individuals, it's about viewpoints. I am of the pro-pvp-space-because-that's-the-whole-point-and-plus-can-be-fun side, which I am fairly certain is MA's side too.
It is not the game us pre-space-age people signed up for and it has not ceased to upset ever since inception. Yes, we do take offense. If vitriol is directed at pirates then because they are the tools of this flawed idea.

I strongly disagree with the EU-is-reality-and-game-play-equals-crime crowd (feel free to choose a more charitable name for it) which I think suffers from faulty thinking and crowd makes us right attitude, which is why I push back.
This part is correct and not even a matter of opinion. This game and many others are full of elements that would be illegal or unacceptable to play out in the real world and it is a strong motivation why people play games at all. Good old Chess or Chequers are games of war, so not limited to modern video games. Claiming RL laws apply within is as pointless as unintelligent.
 

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"We have PvP zones, but you have to purposefully go into them. I think space will be mostly PvP, but there may be some safe shipping lanes. It's all speculation at this point."

I am interested, if anyone knows, with what arguments the all-pvp fraction won.
You have to enter space on purpose aswell, you don´t stumble into it by accident!

As this interview was pre space, you should read propperly -- all speculation as he said at that point.

All space is/was PvP from day 1 as intended!

Reasoning:
Different planets should all grow their own economy, therefor transportion of goods between, has to be dangerous, difficult, costly. Space = PvP lootable. MS decrease danger of transportation, never intended to nullify it, or why do have MS guns?
Well in actual state MS don´t need gunners, as it is not needed to defend the passengers, they logged out anyways.

The problem why other planets can´t grow a economy is simply, all materials for crafting go to Caly instead being used at the other planets. As long it is risk free and cheap (logout at MS), nothing will change.

If you read through support replys about the issue, you should know that actual practice in space does not work as it was intended by MA. A fix is overdue.
 

San

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You have to enter space on purpose aswell, you don´t stumble into it by accident!
This discussion was had ad nauseam and is not the question here.

As this interview was pre space, you should read propperly -- all speculation as he said at that point.

All space is/was PvP from day 1 as intended!
You didn't get my drift, exactly why I asked if anyone knows the history of what went into this decision because before day 1 it was not settled at all as he said.

Reasoning:
Everyone can surmise as much oneself or draw from countless forum threads. I'd like to know if it's really what they thought at the time or what the hoped-for effect would be. To answer the question requires inside knowledge, hence it is directed at those who were at the right time at the right place, if any such person is still around here. Or if anyone knows of an official statement from the time. If your summary can be linked back to such a statement, then this would be a shortcut of course.
 

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If you read through support replys about the issue, you should know that actual practice in space does not work as it was intended by MA. A fix is overdue.
There are many fixes due in space. This MAY be one of them but there are many more that need to be fixed first. Ship speeds, gun ranges, and how people enter space need to be re-examined and adjusted long before they look at logout and come up with a solution for it. MA needs to prioritize them properly.

Cause lets be honest, if they were to "fix" this.. the Auction House would get a lot more traffic and space itself would pretty much die out.
 

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Entropia Universe 15.17.0 Release Notes
05 Jun 2018

Fixed an issue causing higher than intended vehicle speeds when using certain movement action combinations (i.e. forward and strafe).

:clap:
 

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Wanted to add my 2 cents here. With regard to the "log out bug or exploit" I don't think that it can be handled in isolation, which is most likely why MA hasn't addressed it. However, I really wanted to respond to anyone that has made the argument that creating additional risk (e.g. removing the log out bug) would actually be good for the economy. Any action that increase the "friction" within an economy, be that cost, distance, time, risks, imperfect information, etc. is bad for an economy. Any addition of friction moves the economic model away from the ideal state. Anyway, hope this is helpful for some.
 

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However, I really wanted to respond to anyone that has made the argument that creating additional risk (e.g. removing the log out bug) would actually be good for the economy.
Any action that increase the "friction" within an economy, be that cost, distance, time, risks, imperfect information, etc. is bad for an economy. Any addition of friction moves the economic model away from the ideal state. Anyway, hope this is helpful for some.
Thats right for 1 economy, but we have different planets so we have different economys.
We have that in RL aswell.
What is bad for one economy can be good for another one, f.e. what is good for europe may be bad for china or US, and the other way around.
Same should be in EU! Ark/Toulan/RT/Cyrene economy suffering because all materials go directly to big market Caly.
If the risk of transports would be increase (which is actaully 0%, due to logout), more materials would stay at other planets and maybe used by crafters there. This could have an positive impact on this other planets economy, while it may hurt Caly economy.

Its all speculation, we can´t know its exact impact, but without a try we never will see anything change.

If it would increase average MU just by 1% it would already be a huge positive impact for those who want to sell their loots, bad for those who have to pay 1% more for their crafting materials.

There is always two sides on a medal.
 

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Thats right for 1 economy
With auction transport, we do have one economy. Even if MA some how fixed log out, we would still have one economy.


If the risk of transports would be increase (which is actaully 0%, due to logout), more materials would stay at other planets and maybe used by crafters there.
Spoken by someone who has never tried to craft anything off caly. You do realize that MA purposefully put in "universal" materials into planet partner bps and then did not put those "universal" materials in the planet partners loot pools right?

The only planet where you can find all the materials to craft all the items is caly. Fixing log off will just mean that planet partner specific resources are even more worthless since auction transport fees for materials is insane but for crafted items its very cheap.
 

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...
If the risk of transports would be increase (which is actaully 0%, due to logout)
...
The risk of transport is currently user-adjustable and ranges from over 90% to nearly 0% chance of losing all lootables.

Just like so many things in life, the closer you want to get to that 0% the more you have to spend.

But if you left a planet, there's always the chance you get looted.
 
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