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Get involved: Help test hunting

Mikeemooo said:
After some crazy experiments last night with some friends, decided I'm not going to go and generate any more stats for this thread.

I'll happy compile the data and update the stats if anyone sends me some, though. Just do it in the same format I mentioned in post #1.

I expect anyone who knows what I'm like can guess what kind of experiment I did last night (a spin off from this thread), and, well - it's thrown me a bit. Maybe taken a bit (lot?) of enjoyment out of the game for me because of the way I personally enjoy playing this game.

But hey, I'm sure I'll find other things that I enjoy doing ;)
Click to expand...

Care to elaborate a bit? :ahh:
 
And now I am not sure if I want to test anything or not.
 
Noodles said:
...
The data you have collected seem to show that poor economy is partially compensated in the short term, in line with Poppy Fuzzy's comments in the other thread.

So overkill and poor economy may be apples and oranges as far as the loot system is concerned.
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I had the same thoughts. The data contradicts what we have seen so far. Loot seemed to be purely hp dmg related.
 
falkao said:
I had the same thoughts. The data contradicts what we have seen so far. Loot seemed to be purely hp dmg related.
Click to expand...

Can confirm that low eco is compensated. Doesn't seem to be capped either.

Eco weapons still seem to be eco, just not as much of a difference as one might expect.

I'd take a guess that it's a bit like this:


click to enlarge
 
Mikeemooo said:
Can confirm that low eco is compensated. Doesn't seem to be capped either.
Click to expand...

This means there's no point in using finishers or it's just about the cost to inflict HP? :scratch2:
 
subscribing, this is awesome :)
might do some runs :)

+rep
 
The test last night was fun i think for the few mobs i was in the team on :)
 
Mikeemooo said:
Code: 
			[B]Average Weapon Cost[/B]	[B]Average Loot[/B]
[B]A101[/B]			0.778			0.3723
[B]E-Amp 15[/B]		2.225			0.8561
Click to expand...

I've checked the data and it looks plausible.

Loot on E-AMP 15 is indeed scaled up. When comparing the survivor curves (A101 n = 13 vs E-Amp 15 n= 24) a statistically significantly difference becomes evident (p < .001, Log-Rank). As cost is recorded per kill the payout loot/cost can be calculated and the difference isn't statistically significantly different anymore (p = .316, Log-Rank). However, sample size is very low and I won't conclude from that, that there is no difference. Nevertheless, the data shows that there might have been some changes on loot.

Fig 1: Survival analysis of loot distribution: upper panel comparison of observed loot, lower panel comparison of loot/cost
molisk_443500.jpg
 
The ridiculous thing is, a tiny fraction of the eamp 15 decay is used for dealing damage. The rest is just waste :(
 
Cum survival :lolup::lolup::lolup::lolup:
 
sitram said:
This means there's no point in using finishers or it's just about the cost to inflict HP? :scratch2:
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I never did any data to prove it, but I have always felt that my loots were lower if I used a finisher. BTW I still usually use one. :scratch2:
 
Tec said:
I never did any data to prove it, but I have always felt that my loots were lower if I used a finisher. BTW I still usually use one. :scratch2:
Click to expand...

On the regen mobs that have around 1-1.5k base HP I noticed that there is a lot of overkill on the last shot even with a weapon like hl12 which doesn't have a high damage interval. With rifles, which have higher damage intervals, the overkill is even higher.

However, even if mob has only 10 HP left and I deal 100 damage with my gun, I still get the message in chat window that I did 100 dmg not 10. This could mean that the entire damage be taken into account when loot is calculated and there's no such thing as overkill.

On faps the message in chat window shows only the amount of HP left, even if the heal interval is higher. This is where money is lost when you use a bigger fap to heal only 2-3 HP points.

Maybe there's no difference between hunting a very low HP mob with small weapon(minimal overkill) and a big weapon(a lot of overkill). If a hunter does 100 damage in one shot to a 10 HP mob, the system consider the extra HP as regen and the loot is calculated accordingly.

However I see eco and damage as two different things. You get loot based on damage inflicted. The cost at which you deal that damage(buy your loot) is something else.

An interesting test would be:
- mob with opalo+eamp13(overamping)
- same mob with a gun similar in dps(no overamping) as the above combo
- compare results.
This way we would test if indeed a loss in eco(first case) will return more, less or same average loot as a gun with higher eco but same dps.
 
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sitram said:
However, if loot is based on damage, even if mob has only 10 HP left and I deal 100 damage with my gun, I still get the message in chat window that I did 100 dmg not 10. This could mean that the entire damage is be taken into account when loot is calculated.
Click to expand...

Good call!

sitram said:
I got a crazy idea:
Maybe there's no difference between hunting a very low HP mob with small weapon(minimal overkill) and a big weapon(a lot of overkill). If a hunter does 100 damage in one shot to a 10 HP mob, the system consider the extra HP as regen and the loot is calculated accordingly.
Click to expand...

That should be easy enough to verify! Somebody need to hunt small mobs like Sabakumas with a weapon that does huge damage. The difference in loot should be striking compared to doing the same with a appropriate weapon. If the weapon does 100 damage on average Sabakuma young should produce about 5 times the loot than when shot with a, say, M2100.

Edit: Imagine nearly everybody using a finsher weapon for so many years after it became totally useless.
 
Spoke to someone who hunted tiny mobs with huge rockets and had insane loss.

No data for it though.
 
I think they key here is overamping a small weapon.
The system notice that you overamp and cut the dmg at 50% just like it should but the loot formula does not consider that you only does 50% extra dmg from the amp and calculate the loot on the full decay from the amp instead of only the part that acctually do damage, this is the only way all this fits together i think.
 
Mikeemooo said:
Cum survival :lolup::lolup::lolup::lolup:
Click to expand...

well that’s the term but fits good to EU as well ;)

Basically I do guess that the capped dmg with E-amp is considered as a factor. Opalo+E-Amp15 does 12 dmg although 31 would be possible if not capped. Hence dmg reduction is 12/31 = .3871. If I apply this factor on hp dmg done, i.e. hp_dmg corrected = hp_dmg/.3871 and reanalyze loot then I’ll get a p = .758. This means that the difference has become less evident as also seen in the following fig.

molisk2.jpg


Mean dmg with opalo e-amp 15 was 215.68 which basically corresponds to 557.17 when applying the above mentioned factor. So due to the cap one has the possibility to turn the 160 HP Molisk into a 413 HP one.

So I don’t' think that with this dataset we have any hints about finishers or other things like ECO. What has been tested is what happens when a weapon is artificially limited by MA.
 
Hey Mikee
I added you to my contacts by the way

But.. Good Thread man... awhile back maybe 4 or 5 months ago.. i Bought Eamps 11,12,15, i still have the 15.. and i would put it on my gun and hunt exa's out by Segna.. i always got decent loot.. i would ask people if the amp was the reason, due to maybe spending more per pull(on the trigger)... No one could give me an anser or people would just be completely against the Idea.. but i would hunt with no amp, and not get as much back, but when i put the EAmp 15 on i would have pixie armor and Faps drop like crazy( I mean its not like ur goin to get it all the time but the Amp Did make a difference) Not sure if i can have a partner with me or not Because my RL is Busy So i multitask but i will Put this to the test and share my Results...
 
toad said:
I think they key here is overamping a small weapon.
The system notice that you overamp and cut the dmg at 50% just like it should but the loot formula does not consider that you only does 50% extra dmg from the amp and calculate the loot on the full decay from the amp instead of only the part that acctually do damage, this is the only way all this fits together i think.
Click to expand...

You might be on to something here.

This behavior could be only in case of overamping a weapon. Maybe all MA did when they introduced the overamping fix a long time ago was to modify the damage interval displayed on the weapon stats. Or this could be an issue which appeared when they migrated to Cryengine.

:scratch2:
 
I think this is a bug and therefor i advice people not to do this anymore, i have reported it as a bug today but no answer yet.
 
toad said:
I think this is a bug and therefor i advice people not to do this anymore, i have reported it as a bug today but no answer yet.
Click to expand...

Why? it offers no obvious advantage.
 
toad said:
I think this is a bug and therefor i advice people not to do this anymore, i have reported it as a bug today but no answer yet.
Click to expand...

This will be interesting. It could force them to change their loot model.
 
High regen mobs definitely loot differently than normal regen mobs. Toad could actually be correct that there is something bugged with the combination of overamping and high regen mobs. That would also explain the difference between this test and extreme overkill on small non regen mobs. We know that loot acts in several different ways for different mobs (mob classes?) I'd be careful drawing too broad a conclusion from an extreme test like this. Frankly, I avoid high regen mobs for the most part, I only hunt feffs in that class and they trend quite a bit lower in loot than the average mob I hunt. Unscientifically I also see the most "loot sucks" complaint posts from people using low damage weapons on high regen mobs (Atrox).
 
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