Help: Give me a reason to go UL

bettlejus

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I am not saying that i know the truth and i didnt say you will profit, but there is higher chance to profit. i was just posting what mindark said. But maybe you have recent data on same mob, same amount of mobs killed, where less eco (no markup weapons) is giving out more loot than eco hunting. I doubt.

Not more loot, just bigger swings, more globals

Again, not more loot!
 

whiteknut

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"A second and very important part of efficient hunting is to consider the relative cost of using a particular weapon, often referred to as weapon economy, usually measured as damage per PEC. This measures how efficiently, in terms of weapon decay and ammo consumption, a weapon produces each point of damage. An avatar will enjoy much better overall hunting results over time when using weapons with higher damage per pec. Many community websites, such as www.entropiawiki.com, offer detailed statistics on the economy of nearly all the various weapons available in Entropia Universe. The MindArk development team is also considering including more detailed economy statistics on the item information panel in an upcoming release to improve the availability of such information."
(Developers notes 3, (after argo event as i thought) There was also some information posted by some MA or FPC employee, regarding same thing. Where he said that it is myth that uneco weapons will provide better loots(just cant find it yet)
 

whiteknut

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Not more loot, just bigger swings, more globals

Again, not more loot!
So you agree, using UL UNECO weapons is bad for your loot? (when some think the more you spend on single mob, the higher the loot)
 

bettlejus

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So you agree, using UL UNECO weapons is bad for your loot? (when some think the more you spend on single mob, the higher the loot)

With the new system ( if indeed is a new system) YES, bad for your short-time loot (swing)

and good meand more fun, less money:)

fun = globals
less money = bigger loot swings


If you have 1K peds and want them to last longer go for the biggest ECO you can find and don't hunt mobs above 1K HP
 

whiteknut

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With the new system ( if indeed is a new system) YES, bad for your short-time loot (swing)

and good meand more fun, less money:)

fun = globals
less money = bigger loot swings


If you have 1K peds and want them to last longer go for the biggest ECO you can find and don't hunt mobs above 1K HP
k sorry for not understanding in first posts, I agree eco hunting is not the fun hunting.
 

toad

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I know about that blog post but were does it say it got changed?
As far as i know it has always been like that.


"A second and very important part of efficient hunting is to consider the relative cost of using a particular weapon, often referred to as weapon economy, usually measured as damage per PEC. This measures how efficiently, in terms of weapon decay and ammo consumption, a weapon produces each point of damage. An avatar will enjoy much better overall hunting results over time when using weapons with higher damage per pec. Many community websites, such as www.entropiawiki.com, offer detailed statistics on the economy of nearly all the various weapons available in Entropia Universe. The MindArk development team is also considering including more detailed economy statistics on the item information panel in an upcoming release to improve the availability of such information."
(Developers notes 3, (after argo event as i thought) There was also some information posted by some MA or FPC employee, regarding same thing. Where he said that it is myth that uneco weapons will provide better loots(just cant find it yet)
 

cc.

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There's so many fun L options to play with all under 110% that I dont see the point in going ul again at the moment. So long as you have a good ul tagger that is, range is the one thing L doesnt have but if that doesnt bother you then stay as you are.
Saw a comment about someone preferring L armour now, thats one thing I couldnt switch to. Decent protection doesnt come cheap as its not skills based. Once the player base catches up and L weapon prices go up at higher lvls then its time to go ul again.

cc
 

Dollymaus

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There's so many fun L options to play with all under 110% that I dont see the point in going ul again at the moment.
Only true if you have level 80 or above. We nubz in the 40-50 Levels pay quite a bit money :)

If you have 1K peds and want them to last longer go for the biggest ECO you can find and don't hunt mobs above 1K HP
If you want them to last really long dont pay markup and collect the most markup you can get
 

Falagor

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I am not saying that i know the truth and i didnt say you will profit, but there is higher chance to profit. i was just posting what mindark said. But maybe you have recent data on same mob, same amount of mobs killed, where less eco (no markup weapons) is giving out more loot than eco hunting. I doubt.
From my logs i am getting better returns using E-amp 15 than using A104 amp (eco on Eamp15 is terrible). I mean i get same TT returns and better markup returns:
  • same TT returns - because if i use less eco weapon i get more loot both: in common looters and in minis
  • better markup returns - becasue i get more globals - those have higher chance for getting item (which usually have better markup than just smaller stacks of oils).

As you can see - there is no point of using A104 at all. It costs more, has lower extra dmg and i get worse returns with it, so whats the point?

Sample was 13k peds on A104 and 14k peds on E-amp 15 hunting neconus. I know its small but its already visible that TT returns are same or better for E-amp 15 and i got much more items with E-amp.

"A second and very important part of efficient hunting is to consider the relative cost of using a particular weapon, often referred to as weapon economy, usually measured as damage per PEC. This measures how efficiently, in terms of weapon decay and ammo consumption, a weapon produces each point of damage. An avatar will enjoy much better overall hunting results over time when using weapons with higher damage per pec. Many community websites, such as www.entropiawiki.com, offer detailed statistics on the economy of nearly all the various weapons available in Entropia Universe. The MindArk development team is also considering including more detailed economy statistics on the item information panel in an upcoming release to improve the availability of such information."
(Developers notes 3, (after argo event as i thought) There was also some information posted by some MA or FPC employee, regarding same thing. Where he said that it is myth that uneco weapons will provide better loots(just cant find it yet)
This is clear that MA do not want to give us proper information. Providing link to entropiawiki.com as valid source of information is clear sign of this. Many information there is out of date or simply has been put wrong (check mining finders decay info or whole mindforce section after implant % absorbtion - many decay information there are wrong).
Me seeing that MA does not want to give good informaion (and i actually understand that - revealing "how loot works" would kill the game) i do test things my way and make observations.

Basicly rule is: use only UL SIB maxed equipement and you are guaranteed +90% TT returns. You pay zero extra % markup. Try looting things with +111% average markup and you are making profit constantly.
Thats why its so easy to get profit in mining. Effective markup on equipement is 100-101% (even when using (L) finders which find better resorucs imho) as long you stay away from (L) amps. Getting average markup under 110% in ore mining is really hard to do (you need to make an effort to try and achieve that actually) because random ore mining ends usually with around 110-113% average markup. Good area focus mining gives 120-130% easily constant avg markup = profit all the time. With enmatters its possible to make profit too but its little harder (less good areas).
In hunting - it is really hard to get +111% avg markup (its doable but very hard and often changes) so most hunters are constantly loosing (espetally if using (L) gear with markup or non-SIB not maxed weapons).

I have done few other tests that confirm that beeing eco (TT wise) is not that important as long you are maxed on SIB. Tests inclduing various weapons with different eco on different mobs. Also regen is payed back too (i am 100% sure its payed back in common looters and 80% sure it also increases minis too). I am not yet sure abou tax on LAs but it seems that it does not disturb TT returns at all too (at least if the tax is around 4%) - i am still getting 90-95% TT returns hunting or mining on taxed areas.

And yes if everyone will be using UL gear soon everything will be 101-109% ;).

Falagor
:bandit:
 

Falagor

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Why do you use E-amp 15 and a Finisher? You think shooting uneco is compensated but not overkill?
I am 100% sure that shooting uneco is payed back in common looters and in minis.

I am torn (50%/50%) if overkill is ever payed back. I am 100% sure its not payed back righ away (not in common looters). But it seems it is payed back in random extra gobals/hofs. Hard to test properly if overkill is waste or not.

Falagor
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Falagor

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It quite easy to test with big guns on tiny mobs :)
That i tested - it is not payed back in common looters. But qustion is - is it payd back in random globals/hofs? Do you want to try it and waste lots of peds to see its not? :)

Falagor
:bandit:
 

Dollymaus

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Do you want to try it and waste lots of peds to see its not? :)
Actually I had a test not to far away from that. I hunted small electro dance machines with Mina+beast so they usally died within 3-4 shots. But after turning over like 2 K ped I was so tired from them that I stoped with 85-86% return.
 

xaph

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Hey Mate :)
UL-Hi :)
 

minim

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From my logs i am getting better returns using E-amp 15 than using A104 amp (eco on Eamp15 is terrible). I mean i get same TT returns and better markup returns:
  • same TT returns - because if i use less eco weapon i get more loot both: in common looters and in minis
  • better markup returns - becasue i get more globals - those have higher chance for getting item (which usually have better markup than just smaller stacks of oils).

As you can see - there is no point of using A104 at all. It costs more, has lower extra dmg and i get worse returns with it, so whats the point?

Sample was 13k peds on A104 and 14k peds on E-amp 15 hunting neconus. I know its small but its already visible that TT returns are same or better for E-amp 15 and i got much more items with E-amp.



This is clear that MA do not want to give us proper information. Providing link to entropiawiki.com as valid source of information is clear sign of this. Many information there is out of date or simply has been put wrong (check mining finders decay info or whole mindforce section after implant % absorbtion - many decay information there are wrong).
Me seeing that MA does not want to give good informaion (and i actually understand that - revealing "how loot works" would kill the game) i do test things my way and make observations.

Basicly rule is: use only UL SIB maxed equipement and you are guaranteed +90% TT returns. You pay zero extra % markup. Try looting things with +111% average markup and you are making profit constantly.
Thats why its so easy to get profit in mining. Effective markup on equipement is 100-101% (even when using (L) finders which find better resorucs imho) as long you stay away from (L) amps. Getting average markup under 110% in ore mining is really hard to do (you need to make an effort to try and achieve that actually) because random ore mining ends usually with around 110-113% average markup. Good area focus mining gives 120-130% easily constant avg markup = profit all the time. With enmatters its possible to make profit too but its little harder (less good areas).
In hunting - it is really hard to get +111% avg markup (its doable but very hard and often changes) so most hunters are constantly loosing (espetally if using (L) gear with markup or non-SIB not maxed weapons).

I have done few other tests that confirm that beeing eco (TT wise) is not that important as long you are maxed on SIB. Tests inclduing various weapons with different eco on different mobs. Also regen is payed back too (i am 100% sure its payed back in common looters and 80% sure it also increases minis too). I am not yet sure abou tax on LAs but it seems that it does not disturb TT returns at all too (at least if the tax is around 4%) - i am still getting 90-95% TT returns hunting or mining on taxed areas.

And yes if everyone will be using UL gear soon everything will be 101-109% ;).

Falagor
:bandit:
I know you do a lot of good work with statistics but I'm afraid that 13-14k will not tell you anything. Recently when I grinded trough the Araneatrox missions I Could turnover 20-22k from saturday-sunday and in half of it the loot could be slow and no items and in the other half It could rain items even if I used the same setup. Also on a 13-14k cycle even a global (or no global) would affect the test result very much so you really need to do more than that imho.

I have my own data set that I won't share the details in but I can say that I've tested many SIB weapons and now done the way from doa rj, doa rjme, imk2, modmk2 and now at modmerc and there is a 8%(!) difference in TT return on the ul-non-sib (not maxed) guns in TT return and all the tests where done with 100k+ cycled. However my tests still show that I do lack about 2.5% from the best ul-non-sib to the best SIB. It does not seem to have anything to do with the levels needed to use them as some of the worst results are with guns that I had 12-13lvls higher on.

A little disclamer to the comparison is that I don't like to compare it on the forum as I've not maxed the weapons and it's apples and oranges comparison but atleast it give me some more understanding of it.
 

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Sample was 13k peds on A104 and 14k peds on E-amp 15 hunting neconus. I know its small but its already visible that TT returns are same or better for E-amp 15 and i got much more items with E-amp.

I also used E-amp 14 a lot when LR41 L was almost TT food and I still have one, still fun to use with my lc-100 unL. And when I do I also expect to get more tt return that hunt, afterall I m spending 2x more in amp decay than if I used the A105.

If game didn't take in account your tt spend we all will be doomed!


But then how efficiency plays is part? A acurated test would be to kill the same amonth of mobs with one and then with other amp. Yes because even in the case of the E-amp 14 x A105, the E-amp 14 decay much faster but also do 4 more damage each shot.
 

Vedder

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give me little time i will find it :) was one of those q&a threads. Maybe someone can help me find it? It was clearly stated that using UL uneco weapons was not affecting loot in any way, and best thing would be to use eco weapons. (it was posted shortly after the first(if there was more) argo event (CLDs for top loots on argo scouts)
We're waiting :zzz:

;)
 

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With regard to UL SIB, if you can do it (read afford it) then do it. The initial outlay will typically vary very little during your ownership. What that means, obviously, is you will get most,all or even more back on the item provided you pay a reasonable amount. In that regard make sure you purchase wisely.

In doing so, you will have the same ability and same TT costs you were having before (provided the item isnt on the point of breaking) but the benefits you get are:

No having to re-source the item
No markup on the decay
More transparent profit and loss figures (easier)

When you've progressed beyond it, you will/should be able to redeem its value and upgrade.

One thing to bear in mind though, do not overpay for the item. An UL SIB will be nice to use but is no Imp/Mod item. They are definitely special and command the price they have to a point.

I'm writing this without knowledge of which particular weapon youre going for. If its an UL X5... too much markup in my opinion. The lower ones I'm unaware of the pricing for right now as since I chipped, I'm 100% laser :-D
 

AkiranBlade

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We're waiting :zzz:

;)
I distinctly remember Jimmy B performing a test against ambus where the conclusion was the more peds pumped in the more loot was given on average.
 

minim

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I distinctly remember Jimmy B performing a test against ambus where the conclusion was the more peds pumped in the more loot was given on average.
It was like that until recently..
 

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For melee short+longblades there really is no reason to go L
the longblades and shortblades are affordable and have good eco, there is not much tt on them, but after this vu it's a whole different world

If you want insane dps then yes, you pay a lot more, but Songkra and Shagadi have nice dps, especially when tiered.
 

Vedder

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I distinctly remember Jimmy B performing a test against ambus where the conclusion was the more peds pumped in the more loot was given on average.
Yes, I do too.

whiteknut posted that he read in a MA Q&A thread, that they changed that.
He promised a link. Hence my impatient waiting. ;)
 

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Give me a reason to go UL

ermik
Because I still have one available for sale, and the last time we discussed you purchasing it, we weren't all that far apart in making an agreement on price. :yup:
 

RickEngland

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I like limited had some awesome loots using it, especially when LR53 (L) was about. Skilled tons using L, both guns and chips.

Nano attack chips are fantastic as limited, generally low MU.

However I think sometimes there is a strong desire to own something unlimited in game, especially when you reach certain pro levels as long as the price is reasonable. Also you are not stuck tiering to level 1 on brand new limited which I find frustrating.

Than as others have said you always have a weapon at hand, no matter what the availability at auction.

Other than that limited does a great job, and perfect for general budgets. Limited enabled players to use bigger weapons that would have been unaffordable in most cases if they were unlimited.

Both have their good and bad points. The good news is generally there is something available for all budgets.

Rick
 

Jimmy B

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I distinctly remember Jimmy B performing a test against ambus where the conclusion was the more peds pumped in the more loot was given on average.
Yeah, the thread was called 'Some utterly insane tests' or something like that. It was a fairly short test but falkao did some stats on the results that seemed pretty conclusive. I might do a retest some time if it looks like something has changed.
 

Ned Flanders

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As a newbie I should probably avoid taking part of discussions regarding game mechanics...but I thought I'd give my two pecs anyway from a newbie perspective.

When I try to decide what weapon to use on a mob, I usually compare the dps of the weapon with the mobs health. The general rule of thumb for me is that the dps should be 10-15% of the mobs total health so you can take it down in around 10 shots (to not overkill and at the same time not have too high armor decay).

From this point of view, L weapons are more flexible (even if you have an UL with tiers unlocked so you can adjust dps with dmg enhancers).

To be on topic, I never get a weapon that has below 2.9dpp (with amp attached), so when I buy a L weapon I use the entropedia weapon compare tool, and adjust the "weapon decay" to match the markup of the L weapon I decide on.

I don't know how reliable the tool is and if the calculations are accurate, but as I see it, the dpp is the key no matter if you use L or UL weapons (and as some already stated, biggest issue with using L weapons is that the demand is higher than the supply, so either you have to be "flexible" or you have to pay a high MU and lose eco).

I also share the same view as some of you already mentioned, that it is the damage that decides the return (same as loot share in teams). In other words, the dpp only adjusts the costs for your damage, not the return, though trying to be eco you have to balance dpp and armor decay.

EDIT: I guess the question should be, what's your goal, lower costs or increase skillgain? (I borrow my brother's imk.II whenever I can. With my low skill it isn't eco, but the skillgain due to higher ped-cycling is great and it is a very eco weapon with higher skills, so I consider it a worthy investment)
 
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