Grave Digger got bored

[Mikass]

Um, what were the loot rules for your team?

Stack share

 

[falkao]

I have to revise part of my comment on class weights, but this would lead to far in this thread. Here is something else you can think about.

If loot scales up linearly by HP dmg done then you should observe something like this

Base loot with mob at 1000 HP-> mean 15 PED
Base loot with mob regained to 2000 HP -> mean 30 PED

In Jimmy's thread I've stated that this seems not to be the case. I still have no sufficient answer to this. Here is a further assumption I have about it.

We know that loot is split up in distinct classes. Therefore, its very probable that there exists an upper limit per class and hence loot get's truncated if this limit is reached.

Let's assume a truncation that does not depend on hp dmg done but only on the mobs native HP. This would lead to the following.

Lets assume a constant upper limit of 60 PED for the first loot class

Base loot with mob at natural 1000 HP -> effective mean 13.6 PED
Base loot with mob regained to 2000 HP -> effective mean 17.8 PED
Base loot with mob regained to 3000 HP -> effective mean 17.32 PED

Do you notice what happened? Due to the truncation mean loot per class becomes lower. The truncation point of 60 PED was chosen to show you what's behind and does not reflect any real data. Here is a fig. about it.

[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

If my assumption is true, then letting regain the mob leads to loss. The next higher class will not recover the truncated loot. I have produced a similar fig. with Jimmy's data so may assumption might be quite true. However, we have only limited data about it and hence this is no prove yet.

 

[Denis]

So dmg/sec isn't that important as everybody thought when they first introduced super regen mobs? It was suggested in JimmyB's thread, this seems to be yet another test supporting it.

btw +rep to Grave

 

[Grave Digger]

The dmg/pec question



This thread was never a subject of eco as i started it ,it was more a subject of the question how is it possible to get more loot.
Answer: u have to shoot much more Ammo on it

and therefor eco doesnt matter

BUT

if u shoot 20k ammo with mann MPH insteat of 10k with MM on same mob and the loot increase campared what u invested,how to hell is it possible to calculate if eco is important or not?!?

 

[jdegre]

The dmg/pec question

This thread was never a subject of eco as i started it ,it was more a subject of the question how is it possible to get more loot.
Answer: u have to shoot much more Ammo on it

and therefor eco doesnt matter

i think that your test results do not imply that eco does not matter.

your test shows that you loot more if you kill more HP.

now, killing all that HP can be done using more or less peds, depending on your weapon/skills. that's where eco does matter.

 

[Frey]

Try killing mobs with roman ram or unique axe next to someone killing with MM+204. Similar killspeed, almost 4x better economy with MM.

If you get 4x more loot with axe/knife, economy doesn't matter (too much), if you get similar loot, then its only damage inflicted that raises loot, and dmg/pec is still king...

 

[mastermesh]

hmm...

You always get back what you spent? Seems not so for me...

Maybe your lack of fingerprints has some uses other than playing EU... Just Kidding...

 

[Snabble]

This thread was never a subject of eco as i started it

The minute you say one thing on these forums related to a profession, you invite attacks from every angle possible, that's an understood given . Just try to survive as long as you can


We can all agree, mobs payouts, have to do with mobs health, and damage mob inflicts... But if regen does not factor into loots, How on earth can fast regen mobs be justified.. and if fast regen mobs,can not be justified, then fast regen mobs are just one huge trap...


Are you sure, you are not just making this post, to get entropia forum dollars?

Im not 100% satisfied, you didnt start this thread, as a ploy to get EFD's...

LMAO

EDIt: I am just kidding grave digger, that was just an inside joke.

 

[Etopia]

This thread was never a subject of eco as i started it ,it was more a subject of the question how is it possible to get more loot.
Answer: u have to shoot much more Ammo on it

and therefor eco doesnt matter

Your thread is total about eco.

if u shoot 20k ammo with mann MPH insteat of 10k with MM on same mob and the loot increase campared what u invested,how to hell is it possible to calculate if eco is important or not?!?

I dont think the question is "does loot are related to hp killed" , we know , the loot are related to it.
But in what mesure.
How look the courb that link HP and Loot.
I dont think its straight line.there is probably som "optimised" time to kill.

The minute you say one thing on these forums related to a profession, you invite attacks from every angle possible, that's an understood given . Just try to survive as long as you can

Its not atack its discution from people with diferent vieuw on subject.
If evryone was agree on evrything , forum would be total useless, and life would be boring as hell .also , no way to improve anything , as noone discust of an other way or an other view.
We all are diferent , we all see things diferent way , and thats what make our world interessing.

We can all agree, mobs payouts, have to do with mobs health, and damage mob inflicts... But if regen does not factor into loots, How on earth can fast regen mobs be justified.. and if fast regen mobs,can not be justified, then fast regen mobs are just one huge trap...

The health factor on loot , it has been show by som people that ath are related to mobs HP
Also , if mobs regen faster , they stand longuer in front of hunter , so hit more => more decay.

 

[Grave Digger]

New Idea !!!

We know that u get more ped back from a mob if u need more money to kill it.

But do MA give back a fixed ammount per invested ammo or per dmg u did?!?

Lets see it like this example (only as example )...........

MA gives back 1 pec to the lootpool per 1 pec ammo so 1:1
It means simple a MM would have no advantage because if u waste 1 ammo with MM or mann mph doesnt matter anymore.

There must be anther way how we calculate the advantage of highend weapons!!! (i think )


Now look this example.....

MA gives 1.0 pec per done 4.0 dmg for the lootpool.
Now u have a MM with a eco of 4,38/pec
would mean MA filled the lootpool for that done 4,38 dmg with 1.095 pec but u still have a investment of only 1 pec....

Wouldnt that be the one and only way to explain the advantage of a MM?

If i Delay my killspeed with MM down to the killspeed with Mann Mph ,should i get more loot as with Mann Mph?!?

I am really weird

Pls correct me if i am wrong

 

[nvcK]

New Idea !!!

If i Delay my killspeed with MM down to the killspeed with Mann Mph ,should i get more loot as with Mann Mph?!?

You should totally try that one.

 

[Denis]

If i Delay my killspeed with MM down to the killspeed with Mann Mph ,should i get more loot as with Mann Mph?!?

If the dmg/sec on both would be same, MM would still have better eco. You would get same loot, but the killing costs would be lower with MM, thus your profit with MM would be larger (and with imk2 even larger). That's how I understand it.

 

[Grave Digger]

If the dmg/sec on both would be same, MM would still have better eco. You would get same loot, but the killing costs would be lower with MM, thus your profit with MM would be larger (and with imk2 even larger). That's how I understand it.

U didnt read the whole post or didnt understand my point

Sry the calculation is hard to explain for me

 

[Snabble]

I dont think the question is "does loot are related to hp killed" , we know , the loot are related to it.
But in what mesure.
How look the courb that link HP and Loot.
I dont think its straight line.there is probably som "optimised" time to kill.

Considering your a Master crafter, you sure have become awful interested in hunting, all the sudden

 

[TommyDaGreat]

Next up: Daspletor Stalker.

Either way... if this theory is true, you should go and waste 100 ped ammo on a bery young (regen included) and then loot it. It would in that case global. Or in worst case no loot. hahaha. xD

 

[Snabble]

If the dmg/sec on both would be same, MM would still have better eco. You would get same loot, but the killing costs would be lower with MM, thus your profit with MM would be larger (and with imk2 even larger). That's how I understand it.

I agree with this logic, but since loots vary, that eco factor isnt very important.

If your using MM but your skills are not good enough to use it, its eco doesnt matter.

Its nice to hunt as eco as possible, but when it comes down to it, from my experience, if your 100% total eco, that still doesnt mean that mob is gonna give you loots...Let alone good loots, let alone a global, let alone a hof...

So eco is nice, but not very important compared to other things...

 

[Perseverance]

I agree with this logic, but since loots vary, that eco factor isnt very important.

If your using MM but your skills are not good enough to use it, its eco doesnt matter.

Its nice to hunt as eco as possible, but when it comes down to it, from my experience, if your 100% total eco, that still doesnt mean that mob is gonna give you loots...Let alone good loots, let alone a global, let alone a hof...

So eco is nice, but not very important compared to other things...

You don't seem to get what the whole eco thing is all about...
While it is true what you say, you forget that with better eco you can kill more creatures for the same cost as you would kill with a less eco equipment.

 

[Snabble]

with better eco you can kill more creatures for the same cost as you would kill with a less eco equipment.

I agree this comment 100%

I only suggested, on my personal, importance scale, That above statement is not #1

 

[falkao]

to complete my previous post here the same fig. with Jimmy's Ambu data

[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

As stated before, this behavior can be explained by truncation. If this is the case, then regain leads definitely to loss. This would lead to the following conclusion: One that is not able to kill a mob within a certain time span will have a lower return rate.


As you see loot goes first more or less linearly up. This is because the upper truncation has some space left. But with higher cost factors >=3 loot is decreased and hence return rate becomes lower.

 

[Snabble]

Even by my strict judgment of measure, I used to think that even with 7 ammo burn gun at 35 shots a minute, killing an allo stalker was very slow.

But now after this thread, I am having trouble, fighting these thoughts, that maybe , it was actually, still to fast...

Thanks Grave Digger

 

[mike jones]

Even by my strict judgment of measure, I used to think that even with 7 ammo burn gun at 35 shots a minute, killing an allo stalker was very slow.

But now after this thread, I am having trouble, fighting these thoughts, that maybe , it was actually, still to fast...

Thanks Grave Digger

lol 7 ammo burn guns 35 shots a minute lol killing a allo stalker lol

 

[Etopia]

Considering your a Master crafter, you sure have become awful interested in hunting, all the sudden

I am not crafter , i am tailor.
I dont became interested in hunting , i always was interessed in hunting and have always hunt.Stop assuming i have never hunt i did not got my HP in auction.And last summer (2 month ago) my team with my GF was top 12 in number of global and amount of ped on top 100 hunter in entropia traker.

As you see loot goes first more or less linearly up. This is because the upper truncation has some space left. But with higher cost factors >=3 loot is decreased and hence return rate becomes lower.

What is that cost factor ? number of hp regenerate killed ?

 

[falkao]

...

What is that cost factor ? number of hp regenerate killed ?

Jimmy expressed regain using the respective cost to kill a mob. So basically it's a relation to hp dmg done. Cost factor 1 is a mob killed in the normal way. Cost factor 2 is when he let regain the mob ones and so on.

 

[joewish]

MA gives back 1 pec to the lootpool per 1 pec ammo so 1:1
It means simple a MM would have no advantage because if u waste 1 ammo with MM or mann mph doesnt matter anymore.

I doubt it is as simple as this since all guns differ in decay and eco is based on total cost for firering it...

ex.
your MM cost 15.3 pec every time U fire it and 0.3 pec out of this is decay making ammo cost 98% out of total coast.

My (precious) Maddox IV cost 10.5 pec and 3.5 is decay making ammo cost 67% out of total.

This would suggest it is more likely "DMG delt = loot amount" wich would make a eco gun more eco cost/loot vice
or it would be the "ped used = loot amount" wich would take the eco factor of the gun out of the equation wich I also seriously doubt.

My 2 pec...

 

[mjukis]

This does not fit. It should be close to 170 HP per min.

GD used 5641 ammo. Mann does 4 dmg and 75 shots per min. To do 5641 shots he needs at least 5641/75 min = 75min. That's the time he states and so this fits.

In 75 min he does a total of 20759 HP dmg. So the mob regained about 13k HP, which corresponds to 172 HP per min. You state 135 min for full regain, which leads to 57.8 HP per min. So what's correct?

Saw this just now and figured I should comment.

When I did the regen test on dasp young I let it kill me and then went back to look at it regen. A while after that I realized mobs regen faster when they're attacking someone than they do when they're just walking around minding their own business.
average dps with maxed mann mph factoring in misses and crits should be ~3.6, he's pretty skilled but he doesn't do max damage every single shot
If it took 75 minutes to kill he did ~16200dmg meaning a regen of about 112hp/minute, assuming he fired 100% of the time and didn't get a big crit and died, went to get a cup of coffee etc which means the regen could be a bit lower still.

 

[falkao]

...
.
average dps with maxed mann mph factoring in misses and crits should be ~3.6, he's pretty skilled but he doesn't do max damage every single shot
If it took 75 minutes to kill he did ~16200dmg meaning a regen of about 112hp/minute, assuming he fired 100% of the time and didn't get a big crit and died, went to get a cup of coffee etc which means the regen could be a bit lower still.

yep, that's the right way to do it. I used erroneously full dmg instead of of *.75 one. The for sure regain quite less as others.

 

[Exanion_Xero]

ahahaha nice experiment............must have been long to kill that thing O_O

 

[J. Mandrake]

Or maybe loot stays the same for people with enough invested to be able to kill a daspy young...

 

[XeroX2]

well done, I`ve been thinking about the regen/loot stuff for a while now...

+rep

 

[Thesam]

+rep very nice test and intresting discussion.