Help with Quantity vs. Condition

Detritus

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Detritus the Troll
I'm new to crafting but I read a post that explained why you should always do EP 1 on condition and I suppose any other BPs that could suffer from the same rounding problem. I'm mostly trying to craft actual items, but I do EP 1 sometimes to skill up. At any rate, I've noticed my returns on it doing full-condition seem to be fine/normal.

So it makes me curious... I'd always heard full-condition was just for gambling, but this hasn't been my experience. I haven't tried it on other BPs, but I wanted to ask if ultimately in the long run the results are the same either way? I realize it creates high short-term volatility, but given a large enough turnover will you eventually converge on the same rate of return? If so, given that you can afford to cycle that amount, wouldn't it always make sense to do full-condition? Are there any tips, like only do it if you max the BP?
 
Do u want a global or a product?
 
Why not both?



But no, I'm not chasing swirls, I want to actually craft things.

you want to craft things and you clicking EP? :eyecrazy:

You get 33% pure success and 95% TT return in long run, maxed print of course.

Out of 100 PED, 95 PED TT return, 31,6PED product. Long run.

So if you don't sell your product (let's say your product is crafted out of TT value items, 0 markup) for at least 115%+ markup, you are always loosing.

Explosive projectiles? Always loosing. Simple I conductors, springs etc etc, Always loosing. Basic filters? Always loosing.
 
Stay very far away from crafting. It can produce nightmares you didn't knew exist in Entropia. And the worst is, it will taint your game experience for a long time, it gets a serious effort to get away from it and get back to normal turnover.

Those being said, is the most complicated and beautiful thing which you can do in EU, comparable only with trading.

I don't know an answer for quantity vs. condition despite throwing in total alot of hours, money and nerves at it. To give a glimpse, worst day ever was depositing 1k$ at noon and at midnight I had left a few bps worth maybe 1k ped, if even. In another era I took a 10k oreamp-101(L) on quantity. Before explosives, these were the go-to for "gambling", just that it was less gambling if you gave it a bit of thought. Still risky though, even on quantity.

The biggest problem is the CoS which nowadays varies like crazy. Sure that on big turnover it averages qty vs cond, but that big turnover might be more than a decent human being could dedicate to it. A good rule of thumb is to never push it. Watch what big crafters do, you will never see any of them doing anything for too much time. By crafters I mean crafters of items, not EP clickers.

You need four things: skills, maxed bp, math and money. The money aspect is the easiest to clear. If you are selling an item say worth 40 ped and you have 30 slots in auction, that's 1200 ped off the bat. Then you need to count the MU for the residue, average cost of bp, apply a 32 or whatever CoS and that's it. Then, you need something for the skilling while you wait for items to sell and something for stacks of materials/items which you need. It can spiral out very fast if you don't control it and stay in a very limited number of blueprints.

For general feeling, I would rather recommend mining your way up to mineral sense and only then consider crafting. You will get to see some swings in economy, you will get to see a different market to hunting and you get to know people if you trade your stuff. And you'll get some nice engineering from mining.

Nomatter what way you go, you need to stalk the auction for hours. You need to see the speed of circulation for many items and materials even before taking a decision.

Looking back, I would recommend to rather buy the skills and a maximized blueprint and go from there. Preferably a component which is used in these ArMatrix blueprints. Even if is a losing proposition (very low level blueprint, high competition eager to undercut even their mothers etc), if is a few hundred ped turnover per day is a cheap thing to do while you gather experience.

At least for ArMatrix, clicking on condition is a no-go because of all MU involved in ingredients and because they're exclusively from (L) clicks and that can be extra MU. In general, the difference is that if a hof tends to pay residue mostly, you lose all the MU from uncrafted items, even if tt is the same. But Entropia always has small secrets and corners and sometimes it can be worthy to risk. But only sometimes. There is no such thing as crafting on full condition save for EP1 and who knows what item where all MU considered, would result to be worthy. Crafting stackables is itself a separate topic and you need to test for yourself what works and that costs so much money that nobody would give a clear answer if it would exist.

From all crafters I saw in 12 years, only a handful resisted until today. And considering those active, is actually only one, Auktuma. Is incredibly hard, I cannot stress this enough and is incredibly easy to overestimate your understanding and confuse luck with norm.

Lastly, given that they did announced a revamp for both mining and crafting, I would suggest to not do any kind of commitment larger than some 1-2k in a few low maxed bps and skills to top them off. It's anyway a thing to do for years if you get at it, no need to rush anywhere.

Apologies for the unsolicited wall of text :laugh:
 
Never do exp bp I on quality. You will lose 10-20% on rounding issues. (apart from that, it works the same as everything else)


Rgds

Ace
 
Never do exp bp I on quality. You will lose 10-20% on rounding issues. (apart from that, it works the same as everything else)


Rgds

Ace

Im curious about this as i have another bp that works suspiciously. Cost is 10 pec but sometime the result (total success) is only 9 pecs. Can tell me how it works?
 
Im curious about this as i have another bp that works suspiciously. Cost is 10 pec but sometime the result (total success) is only 9 pecs. Can tell me how it works?


When you get loot (near success) under 1 pec the system regards that as a failure. So you lose a LOT of near successes, and hence their tt value.


Rgds

Ace
 
you want to craft things and you clicking EP? :eyecrazy:

(trimmed)

Explosive projectiles? Always loosing. Simple I conductors, springs etc etc, Always loosing. Basic filters? Always loosing.

I only craft them rarely, just for the skill. I realize they are a loss. More typically when I want to skill I am just cycling the crap I normally would TT from hunting, mostly plastic springs at this stage.

Thinking about my question more I guess it pertained more to stackables. I wouldn't craft tools or weapons on condition, but for these interim skilling sessions I was just curious if condition would provide the same returns but possibly more skills or the occasional hof.


Stay very far away from crafting. It can produce nightmares you didn't knew exist in Entropia. And the worst is, it will taint your game experience for a long time, it gets a serious effort to get away from it and get back to normal turnover.

This attitude has never made sense to me. I've read so many people say "omg stay away from crafting" or "skill on a mothership for 6 years before you touch any bp". In my stubborn nature, I couldn't believe that MA would set up the game this way, so I just started crafting by doing it, like any of the other professions. So far I'm 108% profitable just from doing noob stuff. Small turnover, so I'm sure it will drop, but nevertheless it isn't the horrible terrifying money pit that everyone claims it to be.


Never do exp bp I on quality. You will lose 10-20% on rounding issues. (apart from that, it works the same as everything else)

Yes I think it was your thread I learned that from, actually.
 
Of course on the low levels is not. Just like hunting puny mobs or daikiba young cannot possibly cost you an arm and a leg. Sorry for my overdramatic style of writing :laugh:
 
I haven't been researching much of crafting on condition but it's really enough to model things theoretically what will be result. When you push slider towards condition you rise your odds to have global/HOF/ATH. That's compensatory for your turning some of your "Success" and "Near success" into "Failure" - on condition you will have less of first two and more of "Failure". "Success" and "Near success" will be higher TT than on quantity.
On condition you will have:
1) higher TT on each succeeded to craft item (but it will be lower overall TT on items in compare to clicking on quantity)
2) higher TT of residue
3) more of precious stones
4) less in TT of returned initial materials (on near success; due to it is capped; 5x it is?)

When you burn TT materials (nanocubes etc) there probably could be some extra win to craft on condition due to looted precious stones what got probably higher markup on the list above (better markup than on nanocubes, explosive projectiles or metal residue).

See what will be if you will click higher markup initial materials. On condition you will turn higher amount of initial materials into TT of item, residue and precious stones.
If you need TT on item - it's better to use residue filler and craft on quantity. 102% residue goes into xxx% item TT.
I could guess just explosive projectiles is good to craft on condition.

One more thing to mention - there are two types of blueprints - ones what bring to 90% and to 95% return on TT on very long run (when clicking it at maxed).

There are also some other modifiers - skilling rate, quality of looted blueprints, timing, style of your crafting (homogenous, heterogenous), length of your crafting sessions...
 
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I haven't been researching much of crafting on condition but it's really enough to model things theoretically what will be result. When you push slider towards condition you rise your odds to have global/HOF/ATH. That's compensatory for your turning some of your "Success" and "Near success" into "Failure" - on condition you will have less of first two and more of "Failure". "Success" and "Near success" will be higher TT than on quantity.
On condition you will have:
1) higher TT on each succeeded to craft item (but it will be lower overall TT on items in compare to clicking on quantity)
2) higher TT of residue
3) more of precious stones
4) less in TT of returned initial materials (on near success; due to it is capped; 5x it is?)

When you burn TT materials (nanocubes etc) there probably could be some extra win to craft on condition due to looted precious stones what got probably higher markup on the list above (better markup than on nanocubes, explosive projectiles or metal residue).

See what will be if you will click higher markup initial materials. On condition you will turn higher amount of initial materials into TT of item, residue and precious stones.
If you need TT on item - it's better to use residue filler and craft on quantity. 102% residue goes into xxx% item TT.
I could guess just explosive projectiles is good to craft on condition.

One more thing to mention - there are two types of blueprints - ones what bring to 90% and to 95% return on TT on very long run (when clicking it at maxed).

There are also some other modifiers - skilling rate, quality of looted blueprints, timing, style of your crafting (homogenous, heterogenous), length of your crafting sessions...


when this person talks about crafting we should listen carefully :wise:
 
when this person talks about crafting we should listen carefully :wise:

thanks for amp :) I had some warning though - I have mentioned it will be just theoretical considerations.

But let me bring you some homework:

Metal Mounting crafting. Initial materials are at 104% and ~135% and product is at ~160%+. You need more of product. I think it could be interesting with this craft to play with slider a bit. Do your research. And maybe post your considerations, results.
Metal mountings are needed for ArMatrix weapons - I would like you to learn how to craft it. Have fun!
 
thanks for amp :) I had some warning though - I have mentioned it will be just theoretical considerations.

But let me bring you some homework:

Metal Mounting crafting. Initial materials are at 104% and ~135% and product is at ~160%+. You need more of product. I think it could be interesting with this craft to play with slider a bit. Do your research. And maybe post your considerations, results.
Metal mountings are needed for ArMatrix weapons - I would like you to learn how to craft it. Have fun!


Thank you for your feedback; as Billy Jean said, any crafter should pay attention when you have something to say.

Metal Mountings are beyond my skill level, but I will work towards them.

I think though, based on all of the responses that probably condition is best left alone, with the exception of the BPs that suffer the rounding error.
 
Thank you for your feedback; as Billy Jean said, any crafter should pay attention when you have something to say.

Metal Mountings are beyond my skill level, but I will work towards them.

I think though, based on all of the responses that probably condition is best left alone, with the exception of the BPs that suffer the rounding error.

metal mountings is a non sib blueprint. im still not sure if skills matter on them, or at least to what degree. for example as long as i can remember, on the basic filters bp and similar old non sib ones with level 1 1 got 90% success rate. always. no matter what QR it got and im not sure if it ever mattered how much skill i got.
can a high level crafter maybe tell some of his shown success rates (crafting mashine when chosing the bp and not the real one after crafting) for some of the old school blueprints of different levels?
would be nice to see if skills / QR matter at all at these non sib bps.
 
metal mountings is a non sib blueprint. im still not sure if skills matter on them, or at least to what degree. for example as long as i can remember, on the basic filters bp and similar old non sib ones with level 1 1 got 90% success rate. always. no matter what QR it got and im not sure if it ever mattered how much skill i got.
can a high level crafter maybe tell some of his shown success rates (crafting mashine when chosing the bp and not the real one after crafting) for some of the old school blueprints of different levels?
would be nice to see if skills / QR matter at all at these non sib bps.

Metal Mountings is Vol. II, hence SIB. Non-SIB blueprints are in Vol. I.

For a qr 1.0 non-SIB blueprint, the displayed success rate reaches 90% at prof_level of (bp_level+1)*5 - e.g. lvl 10 for a lvl I blueprint, lvl 15 for a lvl II blueprint, lvl 20 for a lvl III blueprint etc. - or, in other words, double the prof_level it would take to max a sib blueprint of the same bp_level.

A qr 100.0 non-SIB blueprint, on the other hand, is maxed sooner than a SIB blueprint of the same level.

Or, to rephrase - non-SIB blueprints can be maxed either by skill or qr, SIB blueprints take both skill and qr to max. SIB blueprints go to 95% though.
 
On condition you will have:
1) higher TT on each succeeded to craft item (but it will be lower overall TT on items in compare to clicking on quantity)
2) higher TT of residue
3) more of precious stones
4) less in TT of returned initial materials (on near success; due to it is capped; 5x it is?)

5) fewer blueprint drops

Some people however believe that blueprints dropping on quantity are different/better but I have doubts about that.

In pre-EP era, when residue had higher MU, 2) could often outweigh 5) but that's less likely to happen now.
 
can a high level crafter maybe tell some of his shown success rates (crafting mashine when chosing the bp and not the real one after crafting) for some of the old school blueprints of different levels?
would be nice to see if skills / QR matter at all at these non sib bps.

"must spread more rep"

Agreed, this would be interesting to see; I didn't even know this was a thing.




All good info, thanks everyone.
 
5) fewer blueprint drops

Some people however believe that blueprints dropping on quantity are different/better but I have doubts about that.

Blueprints drops on full condition tend to have more number of clicks/drop. But this was an important distinction in the past when the drops were more varied. Also it mattered for "overcharged" bps, which watching the globals I think don't really drop anymore, save for attachaments crafting.

Now I would suppose it could work to fish for ArMatrix bps, but having so many ingredients with MU, it's a difficult balance. Besides, selling ArMatrix bps isn't really a thing, the MU is very low.
 
Metal Mountings is Vol. II, hence SIB. Non-SIB blueprints are in Vol. I.

For a qr 1.0 non-SIB blueprint, the displayed success rate reaches 90% at prof_level of (bp_level+1)*5 - e.g. lvl 10 for a lvl I blueprint, lvl 15 for a lvl II blueprint, lvl 20 for a lvl III blueprint etc. - or, in other words, double the prof_level it would take to max a sib blueprint of the same bp_level.

A qr 100.0 non-SIB blueprint, on the other hand, is maxed sooner than a SIB blueprint of the same level.

Or, to rephrase - non-SIB blueprints can be maxed either by skill or qr, SIB blueprints take both skill and qr to max. SIB blueprints go to 95% though.

thanks for that information. i didnt craft enough to know this i guess ^^
 
Besides, selling ArMatrix bps isn't really a thing, the MU is very low.

6000% is low MU to you?

6 full pages of available auctions is "not really a thing"?
 
5) fewer blueprint drops

Some people however believe that blueprints dropping on quantity are different/better but I have doubts about that.

In pre-EP era, when residue had higher MU, 2) could often outweigh 5) but that's less likely to happen now.

I just did 10K clicks on Breer P1a Quantity and 10K Condition.

Amount of blueprints was about same, but Condition blueprints were better quality. Quantity is dropping mostly trash blueprints - Monria Boxing Gloves, Geotrek etc, mostly equal or +2 level blueprints while Condition was dropping higher levels + higher quality prints, Kismet and others.

The difference was small though, very small. Since it was the biggest loss I ever took in EU, I will never test something like that again :p 80% TT return on ~60K circulated is fucking robbery...
 
I just did 10K clicks on Breer P1a Quantity and 10K Condition.

Amount of blueprints was about same, but Condition blueprints were better quality. Quantity is dropping mostly trash blueprints - Monria Boxing Gloves, Geotrek etc, mostly equal or +2 level blueprints while Condition was dropping higher levels + higher quality prints, Kismet and others.

The difference was small though, very small. Since it was the biggest loss I ever took in EU, I will never test something like that again :p 80% TT return on ~60K circulated is fucking robbery...

I have so many questions

how many guns in 20k clicks, variance?

did you have time to observer grouping of drops or cycles were they comparable?

Were they in the same or nearly the same hours of the day or consecutive?

Noticeable advancement in skills?

also welcome to crafting returns you're supposed to make it back in markup.

I have some space thrusters I crafted in 2012 or so if you want to buy any :)
 
how many guns in 20k clicks, variance? - usual ~33%

did you have time to observer grouping of drops or cycles were they comparable? - yes, don't craft offhours. any clicking outside of 2 am to 2 pm Mindark time is waste of money. your returns are worse and they can go eat a dick saying something else

Were they in the same or nearly the same hours of the day or consecutive? - I think I actually did something like 30 hours straight on one of the runs, but usualy did them at my working hours, background as usual

Noticeable advancement in skills? - of course, higher tt you put in a click, more/faster skills you get

also welcome to crafting returns you're supposed to make it back in markup. - not that new

I have some space thrusters I crafted in 2012 or so if you want to buy any :) - I have 200+ thrusters in bank at any time, don't need extra :laugh:
 
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