How Armor Works

Jimmy B

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At the moment, it seems like the mobs do simply XX.X damage, and there are certain protections types of your armor taken into account when calculating the remaining damage done! (i.e. Cut, Burn & Electric for SEGs)

Doesn't that mean we aren't even able determine the distribution of damage types?

There can't be any working method, if other protections will lower the share of a specific damage, the whole % of damage types seems to be an outdated theoretical model now!

Well, the % of damage types generally gives a pretty good indication as to what the damage mob is doing. No-one wants to have to memorise the exact damage every maturity does.

An Atrax Young does 10 Impact, 13 Cut and 14 Stab. Every time it hits you it will do between 50% to 100% of that (with the damage types in the same proportions). We haven't tested higher maturity Atrax yet but I'd be willing to bet they do damage in roughly the same proportions.

And like Witte says, the plates thing only occurs in certain situations. And you can never protect against a damage type you don't have protection for. You can simply sometimes protect for more damage than the mob actually does of a type you do have protection for. This can cancel out some of another damage type but the other damage type is never actually absorbed.

Thanks for the info Jimmy...

2 questions;

1) Is there a thread somewhere regarding the testing of mob damage types versus maturity?

2) If not, how do you accurately test the damage types on a mob?


~Red


I'm planning on doing a little guide for (2) at some point but in the meantime there's plenty of worked examples in the thread John linked to:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/hunting/93047-mob-damage-studies-circa-2008-a.html
 

TimUnleashed

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The hit was for 30 Impact, 12 Acid. After absorbing 42 impact, the hit is now for -12 Impact, 12 Acid. Which adds up to 0 so you get a 1.0 hit.

I know it makes absolutely no sense to have negative damage realistically, but I think its the least confusing way to look at it mathematically.

Absolutely. It should always be looked at like this (since for some strange reason, that's how it works!).

Sorry, I removed the Monkey and Giraffe as I thought it was confusing.

Damn! I wish I'd seen the Earth mob example before you changed it...

If the mob was also doing 30 Oregano damage

ROFLMAO you maniac!

That's a SERIOUS shake of the Oregano jar!
 

Jimmy B

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Just done a small guide on how to determine whether or not an L armor will be cheaper (in terms of decay with markup) than its UL counterpart.

Also updated the first post of this thread with some minor details (truncation of formula result, decay on a 1.0 hit).
 

Hally

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Having spend quite some time with hogg wearing solir im vwery confused since today i get more dam then im used to, before i got alot of 1 dam now most dam i get it 12-20 could they have fixed the overprotection ?
 

Jimmy B

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Having spend quite some time with hogg wearing solir im vwery confused since today i get more dam then im used to, before i got alot of 1 dam now most dam i get it 12-20 could they have fixed the overprotection ?

Errrr. :eek:

<i better go and check that>
 

Jimmy B

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Errrr. :eek:

<i better go and check that>

No Hally. I just went and stood in front of Feffoid Bandit with Goblin+5B.

Min damage was 4.6 and Max damage was 9.0 as expected. If they'd changed it so plates and armor act as one, it would have been min damage 10.5, max damage 21 (as I have no cold protection).

I don't think they could change this without making an announcement about it really. It'd have pretty significant impacts on too many people for them not to announce it.
 

Witte

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Having spend quite some time with hogg wearing solir im vwery confused since today i get more dam then im used to, before i got alot of 1 dam now most dam i get it 12-20 could they have fixed the overprotection ?

Maybe you didnt repair the plates? Unfortunatly, for (L) armor you still need to take them off when repairing.
 

Hally

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I did repair and got green text saying it was succesfull but guess ill have to test and rep again. also sometimes the system loose sync of itself so ill try again tomorrow

maybe they changed the hogg a bit ?
 

NevadaJake

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Unexpected decay

If used inappropriately, using plates can cause you more decay than you'd expect.

Imagine taking a 10 damage hit from a mob that only does Impact damage. You're wearing an armor that protects 10 Impact damage, and plates that protect 10 Impact damage. Both will absorb the 10 Impact damage and decay accordingly. Thus you'll get roughly double the decay you'd expect since both the armor and the plates will decay as if they had absorbed 10 damage. Even without the plates on you'd take a 1.0 hit, so the extra decay from the plates is a waste.

However, note that when used well plates improve your economy. (see discussion below)

Jimmy,

I hate to muddy up this great thread with this question:

I am not sure I bother with plates if they double my decay. When you say they improve economy when used well, do you mean that we should use plates that enhance areas our armor is deficient in, rather than increasing abilities it already has?

Thank you.
 

Jimmy B

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Jimmy,

I hate to muddy up this great thread with this question:

I am not sure I bother with plates if they double my decay. When you say they improve economy when used well, do you mean that we should use plates that enhance areas our armor is deficient in, rather than increasing abilities it already has?

Thank you.

Feel free to muddy :D

An example of using them badly would be wearing Ghost+5B for Cornundacauda Matures. The 19 protection from Ghost will absorb almost all the damage (and is excessive on its own). The plates will then absorb another 12 damage providing next to no extra actual protection.

An example of using them well would be using Goblin+5B against mid-maturity Equus. Around 24 protection is about right for them, and its cheaper to use 12 protection from armor + 12 protection from plates than it would be to use an armour with 24 protection and no plates.
 

Hidrojanis

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really nice info :), but it would be beater if in the chars was pixie and Goblin Armour! :yay:
 

NevadaJake

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n00b question here:
  • If I have two sets of armor with the same total HP protections but different TT values, is the one with a lower TT value considered more ECO? (because it decays fewer PED/PEC per hit?

Take Chronicle vs. Sentinel (yeah, they have different TT and HP values) but is Sentinel considered more eco because it has a lower TT value yet higher overall HP protection?

If this observation is correct, which armor hits the sweet spot and offers the most protection for the lowest TT value?
 

TimUnleashed

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n00b question here:
  • If I have two sets of armor with the same total HP protections but different TT values, is the one with a lower TT value considered more ECO? (because it decays fewer PED/PEC per hit?

Take Chronicle vs. Sentinel (yeah, they have different TT and HP values) but is Sentinel considered more eco because it has a lower TT value yet higher overall HP protection?

If this observation is correct, which armor hits the sweet spot and offers the most protection for the lowest TT value?

If I'm not mistaken:

The higher the TT, the greater the MINIMUM decay. Ideally, however, if you're using an armour efficiently, you shouldn't be receiving minimum decay hits.

So, if you're using an armour efficiently, there is nothing about the TT value of the armour that relates to how quickly it decays.

The other thing to consider is that in the case of UL armour only, the amount of protection offered by the armour is relative to its "% repaired" status. So, the higher the TT value of the armour, the slower the drop in how much it protects you (and therefore the less often you need to repair it).

L armour however, protects you 100% all the time, so the TT value becomes irrelevant in decay (again assuming no minimum decay hits).
 

Oleg

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If I'm not mistaken:

The higher the TT, the greater the MINIMUM decay. Ideally, however, if you're using an armour efficiently, you shouldn't be receiving minimum decay hits.

So, if you're using an armour efficiently, there is nothing about the TT value of the armour that relates to how quickly it decays.

The other thing to consider is that in the case of UL armour only, the amount of protection offered by the armour is relative to its "% repaired" status. So, the higher the TT value of the armour, the slower the drop in how much it protects you (and therefore the less often you need to repair it).

L armour however, protects you 100% all the time, so the TT value becomes irrelevant in decay (again assuming no minimum decay hits).

The TT doesn't affect the minimum decay - only the total protection does. The important thing about TT is the bit about having reduced protection when it's less repaired.
 

NevadaJake

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So, if I have armor with 100 HP protection and a total TT value of 500 PED vs. another armor with 90 HP protection and a total TT value of 250 PED.

Does the one with half the TT value, but 90% of the HP protection offer more economical protection because in the end it would cost less to fully repair? :scratch2:
 

Jimmy B

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tt value is irrelevant to economy really, it has no direct impact on decay.

The only effect tt has, is that a UL armor protects less as it decays. For most armors this is a fairly small effect if you repair it after each hunt, but basically higher tt armors will perform a bit better than lower tt armors over a long hunt.
 

TimUnleashed

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The TT doesn't affect the minimum decay - only the total protection does. The important thing about TT is the bit about having reduced protection when it's less repaired.

Whoops, my bad! It's been so long since I checked the formula, I had assumed it was *TT, not *protection. Thanks Oleg.

tt value is irrelevant to economy really, it has no direct impact on decay.

The only effect tt has, is that a UL armor protects less as it decays. For most armors this is a fairly small effect if you repair it after each hunt, but basically higher tt armors will perform a bit better than lower tt armors over a long hunt.

Yep, what he said. I should have just not jumped the gun, and waited for one of you lads to respond. Lesson learnt.
 

frankleeceo

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I have a few questions about armors...

what about the effects of mixing different armor types?
And does different pieces work differently?
What if you go naked with some parts and use plates on the ones that you wear? will that be more eco?

I hope I make sense ;p.
 

GeorgeSkywalker

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+rep to Jimmy!

it's never too late to +rep a great post ... just noticed this thread today from a refeence made to it from another thread ...


Anyway if i become president I'll make everyone +rep jimmy for this post :)
 

Jimmy B

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what about the effects of mixing different armor types?
And does different pieces work differently?
What if you go naked with some parts and use plates on the ones that you wear? will that be more eco?

I personally don't like to mix armor types. The only real reason to do it is if a piece of the armor set you use is more expensive than the rest or you just can't get hold of it.

But everything in this thread works for mixed armor too. When a mob hits you it hits an individual part of your body (ie. one of feet, shins, thighs, arms, body, hands, head). All the pieces work the same (but some get hit more than others, hence decay faster over time, etc).

Personally no, I don't think going part-naked will be more eco. You'll just take occasional big hits that you'll have to fap out. You're better off wearing a complete but lower protection armor instead of part-naked plus partial but higher protection armor.
 

golddude

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okie .... lol :rofl: good job Jimmy...

ps. i just found it on the top of page...
 

Taare

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Sorry for being a complete moron but what i don't understand is this

an armor with 10 imp prot (+2a) mob 100 imp dmg
mob 10 dmg armor absorbs 10 dmg and you receive a 1.0hit pays full decay?
mob 5 dmg armor absporbs 5 dmg and you receive a 5.0 hit, still full decay`?

with 2a

mob 10 dmg armor, full decay on armor, also decay on plate?

does it work like this : The damage is first done to armor then plate, if there is no "residue"(armor absorbed all dmg) dmg plates do not decay?

Also, if an armor has no prot against a given dmg type, it does not decay?
 

Tricity

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Sorry for being a complete moron but what i don't understand is this

an armor with 10 imp prot (+2a) mob 100 imp dmg
mob 10 dmg armor absorbs 10 dmg and you receive a 1.0hit pays full decay?
mob 5 dmg armor absporbs 5 dmg and you receive a 5.0 hit, still full decay`?

with 2a

mob 10 dmg armor, full decay on armor, also decay on plate?

does it work like this : The damage is first done to armor then plate, if there is no "residue"(armor absorbed all dmg) dmg plates do not decay?

Also, if an armor has no prot against a given dmg type, it does not decay?

lets say armor has got 5 imp protection and plates got 5 imp protection so it is 10 total right?
now you get hit 10 imp so your armor gets full 5 and your plates get full 5 so total protection was 10 and you got hit for 10 so you receive 1 dmg and everything seems fine
BUT
now you get hit for 5 imp so your armor gets full 5 imp and (surprise, surprise) your plates get 5 imp (because the damage is calculated separately for your plates and separately for your armor (as if you were receiving 2 separate hits - separate for armor and separate for plates). so you got hit for 5 dmg points but both your plates and your armor decayed for 5 points making it (2x5) 10 in total.
What is absorbed by your armor and your plates (and 1 hit is always calculated separately for armor and for plates) is added up and then deduced from the total damage inflicted by a mob. this leads to a strange phenomenon. lets say a mob hits you 8 imp and 2 acid and you got that armor of yours wementioned earlier (5 imp protection from armor and 5 imp protection from plates). So all your armor and your plates could take was 2x5 imp right? however this value is deduced from the total damage the mob inflicted (8 imp + 2 acid) so (8+2)-(2x5)=0 (or 1 in fact cos u get hit) yey! :yay:
you had no acid protection but somehow got fully protected from it. cool ain't it? .......nah.
i know common sense would indicate that when you get hit for 8 imp and 2 acid, and you are protected for 10 imp total, you should receive 0 imp dmg and 2 acid dmg cos you are not protected against acid but thats not the case. and its not also the case that your armor absorbs hit first and then plates. it is both your armor absorbs full hit and your plates absorb full hit then what they absorbed is magically added up and deduced from a total damage the mob hit u for, irrespectively of the damage types.

PS
I LOVE THE WAY MA DOES THE MATH (8+2)-(2x5)=1
 

Jimmy B

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does it work like this : The damage is first done to armor then plate, if there is no "residue"(armor absorbed all dmg) dmg plates do not decay?

No, it works like Tricity has explained above.

If a mob hits for 20 Impact, and you have 20 Impact in your armour and 20 Impact in your plates then both the armour and the plates absorb 20 Impact and decay, and you receive a 1.0 hit.

Likewise if the mob hit for 20 Impact and 20 Acid, and you have just 20 Impact in your armour and 20 Impact in your plates, then both the plates and armour will absorb 20 Impact. So you protect against 40 damage and receive a 1.0 hit (even though you have no Acid protection).

I didn't understand the numbers you put forward though, sorry. Feel free to clarify if your question hasn't been fully answered yet.

Also, if an armor has no prot against a given dmg type, it does not decay?

If you get hit by 40 Acid damage, and have no protection against Acid then, correct, the armour does not decay.
 

Sub-Zero

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If you get hit by 40 Acid damage, and have no protection against Acid then, correct, the armour does not decay.

Thats why its so eco to hunt RipperSnapper with goblin :laugh:

it doesnt protect against the fish so you put plates and it only decays the plates. :D
 

Bombay

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Sorry Mods

Sorry to revive and old thread but is this stuff still valid and if not can we get it closed?
 

Oleg

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Sorry to revive and old thread but is this stuff still valid and if not can we get it closed?

Yes it is, still the best thread on the forum :)
 

Rayne Jade

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Sorry to revive and old thread but is this stuff still valid and if not can we get it closed?

It is very valid... and since it is Sticky it kinda operates outside the normal parameters of "necro". Unless the entire armor system is changed, this thread will be alive and well.
 
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