FYI: How To Survive 2

San

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Seriously? We never go hunting without an A101.
How do you deal with its not using any ammo? Do you tt shrapnel or other loot to keep cycling? I keep trying to avoid that but every setup which includes the A101 consumes a larger portion in peds than can be recovered from non-shrapnel loot. It behaves like a melee weapon here and makes me want to get rid of the damn thing every time (I do use melee but then with a different mindset). Does A101 improve your results beyond the 1% loss of not converting shrapnel?
 

Sw4g MaSt3r

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How do you deal with its not using any ammo? Do you tt shrapnel or other loot to keep cycling? I keep trying to avoid that but every setup which includes the A101 consumes a larger portion in peds than can be recovered from non-shrapnel loot. It behaves like a melee weapon here and makes me want to get rid of the damn thing every time (I do use melee but then with a different mindset). Does A101 improve your results beyond the 1% loss of not converting shrapnel?
I hunt with Rufen a lot, I can confirm that I never tt shrap and it is very easy to hunt it away. Yes using chon and A101 does use a lot of decay rather than ammo thus building shrap but a simple chage to TT pistol and ZX amp the change in ratio is a lot and you are able to maintian a healthy balance of Universal Ammo.
 
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M Rufen Power

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Glad to see you pick up the project again and are doing well with it.

I'm still interested in the impact of the attachments. Even though they do increase efficiency on the guns you are using, they also lower the DPP (from around 2.97 to 2.63 on the Chon).

So on the one hand, the extra couple efficiency points is increasing your TT return [by who knows how much], but at the same time is decreasing the MU on your loot [by who knows how much] because you will be getting less higher-tier loots.

Would be interesting to see which threshold is greater.

Anyway, good luck!
Hey Det! Thanks for your comment. I would rather gain 100% TT return and no markup than have 95% return and 104% avg markup. I know which one I'd pick any day. I've taken time in how I should respond to your comment. To put it simply Efficiency is now the equivalent of quantity crafting and Damage Per Pec is now like condition crafting. At the moment I am not a huge fan of DPP, I use it to climb as high up the efficiency ladder, then try to go higher still. If DPP by the standard way we calculate it is thrown out the window, so be it, cause it can no longer beat the house. Now, who says that my play style is actually decreasing my markup? Have u seen the average markup I can obtain? Gross 107%. That doesn't seem to indicate I am getting less markup loots or more shrapnel loots. If anything my playstyle helps the markup loots to even show up. Who says my gun is still not at a high DPP of 2.974? I measure both DPP and EFF on two different scales, they are not one and the same, that's how I can live with 2.63 DPP. Like I said, if there was a way to increase my TT returns, I will do it, even if it gives less markup. There may be another factor I have not yet explored as to why I am profiting on TT, but it seems my 1-week old disciple has disproven that theory already, due to him not having any looter skills to speak off yet is at 100%. In conclusion, people need to stop treating DPP/EFF the same, they are not the same, they once shared a linear connection, but that connection has been severed loud and clear, so the new META is now Efficiency over DPP IMO. Take that as you will, I know there are a lot of players who don't agree with this statement cause they are losing a wad ton of peds, but there are other factors at play, such as sine waves (loot cycles), skills and multipliers etc. I hope my rant helps people realise something new to mull it over.
 
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M Rufen Power

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How do you deal with its not using any ammo? Do you tt shrapnel or other loot to keep cycling? I keep trying to avoid that but every setup which includes the A101 consumes a larger portion in peds than can be recovered from non-shrapnel loot. It behaves like a melee weapon here and makes me want to get rid of the damn thing every time (I do use melee but then with a different mindset). Does A101 improve your results beyond the 1% loss of not converting shrapnel?
I don't ever TT shrapnel. I actually convert it for the 1% markup it gives. Now I know A101 doesn't have any ammo burn, but that is okay the looted shrapnel is enough to manage. I usually keep about 800 peds in universal ammo, then 200 peds for repairs. If my repair float starts to drop a little due to, let's say negative returns. If I am unable to auction the item or flog it to another player through trade chats, that's when I would actually TT the loot, last resort. I hope that answers your questions San, to a satisfactory level. So don't worry about not having enough to repair it or not enough ammo to use it, the shrapnel looted is more than enough to cover the guns needs without having so much surplus, and that would only happen from getting a huge multiplier anyways. But for me A101 is invaluable, I've already made back its value in profitable hunting and I hope new players can see what is possible in this game.
 

M Rufen Power

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I hunt with Rufen a lot, I can confirm that I never tt shrapnel and it is very easy to hunt it away. Yes using chon and A101 does use a lot of decay rather than ammo thus building shrapnel but a simple change to TT pistol and ZX amp the change in ratio is a lot and you are able to maintain a healthy balance of Universal Ammo.
Yeah, I normally switch between guns, to see which one actually performs better on the same mob. So I will try Chon, then move to M2100A1, or next run HK110, or even Bukin perhaps. So I mix it up just to see if any setup has a slight advantage over another for the same mob. But in most cases, Chon wins hands down, in a lot of areas. The biggest being the DPS and turnover speed due to the high hit rate. IMO this helps tremendously cycle speed.
 

San

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...I hope that answers your questions San, to a satisfactory level. ...
You must spread some...

Thank you! Yes it does, in every detail. I need to work on finding a rhythm with it, for all the years I've been avoiding it and got me one only recently. Maybe the mistake was that I only ever resorted to this level of hunting when funds were low. Haven't actually played low-level game with a healthy budget as you explained.
 

M Rufen Power

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You must spread some...

Thank you! Yes, it does, in every detail. I need to work on finding a rhythm with it, for all the years I've been avoiding it and got me one only recently. Maybe the mistake was that I only ever resorted to this level of hunting when funds were low. Haven't actually played the low-level game with a healthy budget as you explained.
Well, I am glad that my explanation helped you make that decision. Awesome. With anything, it takes time to build up a rhythm. The thing for me is, hunting low level is more sustainable than hunting above it IMO. I don't hunt mobs that have higher than 1 ped cost to kill. So 300 HP is my limit due to budget, gear and skills. I mean, I love playing the game, so anything that doesn't break the bank in 1 sitting is most favourable, as I can never go back to sweating :eyecrazy:.
 

M Rufen Power

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Downtrend

Hi guys,

Just a quick update, had recent runs back to back which were negative. Went from 102% to 98.56% TT returns. I intend to continue grinding markup, that should slow the decline until I get a decent kick back. But I am fully expectant at the worst case scenario for it to go as low as -300 ped, only time will tell how bad or how long this will last. The aim here is to put on your best poker face and don't leave the mob (table) when your ped (chips) are still left in the lootpool (poker table) for grabs or someone else will take them and that would be a loss.
 
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Detritus

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Hey Det! Thanks for your comment. I would rather gain 100% TT return and no markup than have 95% return and 104% avg markup. I know which one I'd pick any day.
Sure, everyone would prefer that. I was more curious about actual tested numbers rather than thought experiments.


Now, who says that my play style is actually decreasing my markup? Have u seen the average markup I can obtain? Gross 107%. That doesn't seem to indicate I am getting less markup loots or more shrapnel loots. If anything my playstyle helps the markup loots to even show up. Who says my gun is still not at a high DPP of 2.974?
"Who says" - MindArk says; EFF impacts TT return, DPP impacts loot profile.

Your results are great, no doubt, but my curiosity was simply what the measurable impact of those attachments is. From a purely technical perspective (based on actual statements from MA) by increasing your efficiency at a sacrifice of DPP, you should technically be increasing your TT return at the expensive of getting less optimum loot. The extent of that impact is what would be interesting to know. Maybe your average MU could be 1% higher with only a 0.5% lowered average TT return, or perhaps you cross a particular threshold and start to get UL drops or who knows what.

You are saying things like "that doesn't seem to indicate I am getting less MU", but it seems like you are kind of theorizing that your results are already optimal. I think might be a fallacy, though I certainly understand that when you are doing well the desire to change or test new things is very low.

It could very well be that such a small increase in efficiency and such a small decrease in DPP have almost immeasurable impact, and we would have to make much larger swings to notice any difference; but unless it's actually been tested it's just theorycrafting.

Anyway, glad you're back and do keep testing and questioning. :wise:
 

M Rufen Power

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Sure, everyone would prefer that. I was more curious about actual tested numbers rather than thought experiments.




"Who says" - MindArk says; EFF impacts TT return, DPP impacts loot profile.

Your results are great, no doubt, but my curiosity was simply what the measurable impact of those attachments is. From a purely technical perspective (based on actual statements from MA) by increasing your efficiency at a sacrifice of DPP, you should technically be increasing your TT return at the expensive of getting less optimum loot. The extent of that impact is what would be interesting to know. Maybe your average MU could be 1% higher with only a 0.5% lowered average TT return, or perhaps you cross a particular threshold and start to get UL drops or who knows what.

You are saying things like "that doesn't seem to indicate I am getting less MU", but it seems like you are kind of theorizing that your results are already optimal. I think might be a fallacy, though I certainly understand that when you are doing well the desire to change or test new things is very low.

It could very well be that such a small increase in efficiency and such a small decrease in DPP have almost immeasurable impact, and we would have to make much larger swings to notice any difference; but unless it's actually been tested it's just theorycrafting.

Anyway, glad you're back and do keep testing and questioning. :wise:
Absolutely. More testing and more shooting. Last night I looted a Shogun Shin Guard (F) piece sold that for a pretty penny :). I doubt I could of looted that solely with DPP. Because loot is returned back to you from what you put in first.
 

Detritus

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Absolutely. More testing and more shooting. Last night I looted a Shogun Shin Guard (F) piece sold that for a pretty penny :). I doubt I could of looted that solely with DPP. Because loot is returned back to you from what you put in first.

I think it would loot with a slightly lower TT value due to the lower input, but you may in fact loot it more frequently with higher DPP. Who knows.
 

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I think it would loot with a slightly lower TT value due to the lower input, but you may in fact loot it more frequently with higher DPP. Who knows.
I don't keep very careful track but it sure feels like both factors (dpp & cycle scale) influence the probability there
 

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How to survive ?

Get a weapon! When things get out of control, and a chaotic lawlessness starts to spread everywhere, you will have to fight for every bit of food and a drop of water, protecting yourself, your dear family and friends...
 

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stil survive or bankrupt atm?
 

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But they become more efficient
The efficiency stat is the weighed average of gun and all attachments so you should really think about each piece individually.
would you swing a 100% decay melee weapon with 120%markup while only being paid back in shrapnel?
thats pretty much what the extender does when you use it on ULs
While yes it increases efficiency ever so slightly if the extender is higher eff than your gun it comes at a cost which is far far higher than the benefit from efficiency
Extender is only for saving markup on weapons with higher markup than the extender or preserving high tier L guns.
 

M Rufen Power

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I don't keep very good track, but it sure feels like both factors (DPP & cycle scale) influence the probability there
Well, that indeed does make sense. DPP increases the chances of better loot, and the cycle speed can help trigger those events.

So, any update to this?
Not really, I mean the guide is pretty solid for anyone to read over and take notes, implement and measure their results. The only thing about this thread is whether or not I have updates to share which at the moment I am on a long break, letting my in-game investments accrue interest, trying to figure out this game can take a toll on your head lol.

How to survive? Get a weapon! When things get out of control, and chaotic lawlessness starts to spread everywhere, you will have to fight for every bit of food and a drop of water, protecting yourself, your dear family and friends.
Thanks for this satirical post mate.

Are you still surviving or bankrupt atm?
I am still surviving, made an extra 740.40 PED through my investment, so will keep it flowing for a while longer until I am ready to come back and tackle the loot algorithm.

I am living extremely well off event deposits precipitation.
That's awesome mate, keep it up!

Why do you use the P10 Extender instead of a P20 and should i use it on weapons that are not Limited?
P10 is cheaper with lower markup, I think max I paid was 102%, but usually about 101%. It just increases the EFF rating, which should boost TT returns, but after using it for a while, it is up to the individual if they feel they should use it. For me, I could not see the benefit from the EFF translating to returns, if anything my returns were on a decline, but that can be unrelated.

No, using an extender on unlimited items is just wasteful
If you can get the Extender super cheap, its fun to play around with the EFF rating on your setup :), but it just isn't a good option tying up peds into the item.

But they become more efficient
Yes, more efficiency means higher loot returns, but for me, I could not see that correlation when testing.

The efficiency stat is the medium average of the gun and all attachments so you should think about each piece individually. Would you swing a 100% decay melee weapon with 120%markup while only being paid back in shrapnel? That's pretty much what the Extender does when you use it on ULs. While yes it increases efficiency ever so slightly if the Extender is higher eff than the gun, it comes at a cost which is far far higher than the benefit from efficiency. The Extender is only for saving markup on weapons with higher markup than the Extender or preserving high tier L guns.
Yes, I agree with this statement. Extenders are mainly advisable on L items with a higher markup than the Extender itself to be saving pecs on the dollar.
 

M Rufen Power

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Has anyone figured out the loot pool yet or still the same, cycle as much peds as possible?
 
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The ignaritz laser sight is something to look into. it is just as good as the bullseye you listed as far as efficiency but gives more skill gain increase, and has a higher decay rate so, more loot in the pool. It does cost a bit more, but not a huge amount, so after you have upgraded the main things such as rings and other necessities, it is something you might want to look into.
 

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Is it Higher or Lower DPP that equals better loot composition?
 

M Rufen Power

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The ignaritz laser sight is something to look into. it is just as good as the bullseye you listed as far as efficiency but gives more skill gain increase, and has a higher decay rate so, more loot in the pool. It does cost a bit more, but not a huge amount, so after you have upgraded the main things such as rings and other necessities, it is something you might want to look into.
Hmm, thanks for the tip, if they are reasonable then I might look for one. But the extra skills gained is connected to their decay no doubt.

Is it Higher or Lower DPP that equals better loot composition?
Higher DPP = Better Composition. Higher Efficiency = Better Returns. So what I like to do is, obtain highest DPP setup, then kit it out with all attachments which actually reduces the setups overall DPP :scratch2:, however, this gives you best TT returns, and because of the added decay from the attachments can help trigger bigger loot drops or drops with items that have more markup :scratch: .
 
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It is like loot composition and tt returns are at odds with each other. To get better returns you add attachments to increase your efficiency, But this lowers your dpp and thus loot composition. On the other end higher dpp increases loot composition but for optimal dpp you have to forsake the efficiency boosts of attachments and thus lower the loot in the pool and the returns.... I guess there really is no right answer except for the crit scopes/sights which give you efficiency AND dpp...
 

M Rufen Power

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It is like loot composition and tt returns are at odds with each other. To get better returns you add attachments to increase your efficiency, But this lowers your DPP and thus loot composition. On the other end, higher DPP increases loot composition but for optimal DPP you have to forsake the efficiency boosts of attachments and thus lower the loot in the pool and the returns. I guess there really is no right answer except for the crit scopes/sights which give you efficiency and DPP...
That is a great way of describing this fiasco, at odds with each other lol. For me, I would rather go for the highest efficiency with some possible optimal loots from time to time. Rather than going full DPP and lesser efficiency rating because there just is not enough mark up to cover the TT losses overall.
 

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Adding attachment just to increase efficiency that affects dpp is the foolish thing one can do.
Its like lets you main weaponwith 65% cost 1 ped per shot
And attachment 82% efficiency cost 5 pec per shot
Total efficiency will be like 65.8%

Cost of 100 shots will be 105 ped

Simplifying the loot
Loot you will get like
100ped cost on 65% effi
And 5 ped cost on 82% effi

So you are getting more loot but its hurting the dpp and adding extra cost to your hunt.
 

M Rufen Power

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Snipped... So you are getting more loot but it's hurting the DPP and adding extra cost to your hunt.
Is this theoretical or you actually have proof that it is a waste from a DPP perspective? Proof, please!
You are saying that the DPP will be negatively affected by altering the cost per shot with attachments.
I get why you would think that and I'd have agreed if this was still Loot 1.0, but in Loot 2.0 changed it.

For the most part, all costs now are returned even if it negatively affects DPP, cost per kill is irrelevant.
Scenario 1 - A Normal Economic Setup
HIGH DPP = Less Shrapnel Looted / More Varied Loot (With Potential Markup)
LOW EFF = Less Loot Returned Back / Fewer Chances To Loot Markup (Per Drop)
Conclusion = 2 Pros VS 2 Negatives

However, if you were to increase turnover at a higher EFF at the expense of DPP, you loot more MU!
Scenario 2 - A Supposedly Inferior Setup
LOW DPP = Less Shrapnel Looted / More Varied Loot (With Potential Markup)
HIGH EFF = More Loot Per Cost To Kill / More Chances To Loot Markup (Per Drop)
Conclusion = 3 Pros VS 1 Negative

I've experimented a lot with attachments vs a friend of mine who hunted without any sight/scopes.
He had the same objections as yourself, higher costs per shot, decreased DPP, so therefore rejected.

We would hunt the same mobs, but with attachments, I'd always gain more loot and higher returns.
An easy example would be, Economic Setup 300 Blazar drops Vs my Inferior Setup 400 Blazar drops.
This happened all the time on various mobs, we would both record our drop rates for items with mu.

So using sight and scopes gives you better returns, markup and skills up your looter profs much faster!
This is the piece of text I have been trying to avoid writing for quite some time cause nobody tests now!
 
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My post is totally theorotical.
And i do beleive you cannot compare loot between 2 player there will always be too many variables . Even you will find it hard to compare you own run next day :)

Well its hard to explain what i was trying to say and my english is not good which even makes it harder :D
 
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