How would you feel ?

~ Cirrus ~

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About a month ago, I was told about a possible exploit/cheat.
About which I won't give any details here, for obvious reasons.

Yesterday, I decided to tell MA about it, so I made a support case.
Also giving them a screenshot of the chat, on which the date appears.


Here is the answer I got:

----------------------------------------

"Hi,

Thank you for contacting us.

We're glad you reported this to us, we will further investigate xxx.

May we ask why you waited since [2020-xx-xx 00:27:09] when you had this conversation with this player, to report this to us?

Thank you for your cooperation.

Kind regards,
xxx | Entropia Universe Support

----------------------------------------

And I'm talking about it here, because I felt offended by this question.
I don't know what you think about it, but this question they're asking me seems totally inappropriate to me.

Let summarize.

I pay for this game (a lot of money)
I could hope at worst a game without bugs, without cheating.. (and why not without lag)
I don't have any of that !

I spend time to report a possible exploit, in order to help them.
So in short, I'm doing MA's job. (It's not my job to discover exploit/cheat, it's their)

And what I get is a reproach that I took too much time.

And probably I'm even suspected, since I can't see any other reason for this question, than the fact they think I would have taken time trying to use this exploit myself.

That's about what I replied to them, then here's what they said:

----------------------------------------

Hi,

Thank you for replying.

"Dicovering cheating is not supposed to be my job."

As mentioned in our rules of conduct which you accept every time you start Entropia Universe:

8. Rules of Conduct for the Entropia Universe

"You must immediately report errors and bugs in the Entropia Universe to MindArk whenever You discover them. You may not “cheat” or otherwise neglect to report errors or bugs, use bugs, slow connection, Internet latency, or other 'exploits' for own benefits or for the benefit of others."

We hope this helped you understand why we asked you this and we hope you report bugs and/or exploits in a more timely manner next time.

Take care!

Kind regards,
xxx | Entropia Universe Support

----------------------------------------


So guys, if you know about an exploit, report it quickly (Soon™), cause we all know MA's legendary speed and reactivity, so you have to be as fast as them !.. right ?

Pay MA for a product, then do their job, and do it vey well and fast or you'll be blamed !
 

Sub-Zero

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About a month ago, I was told about a possible exploit/cheat.
About which I won't give any details here, for obvious reasons.

Yesterday, I decided to tell MA about it, so I made a support case.
Also giving them a screenshot of the chat, on which the date appears.


So guys, if you know about an exploit, report it quickly (Soon™), cause we all know MA's legendary speed and reactivity, so you have to be as fast as them !.. right ?

Pay MA for a product, then do their job, and do it vey well and fast or you'll be blamed !
You are at fault in this instance not MA and their question is completely justified. You waited a month to tell them when you found out about an exploit.
Who knows if you or the person/s who told you about the exploit told others and if they or you exploited. It's actually very suspicious, not just to me but from MA's perspective too.

You should be grateful you didn't get punished for breaking ToS - you knew about the exploit for 1 month and others, and you chose to not report it until yesterday even though ToS states you should report it immediately otherwise.
 

atomicstorm

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Think MA should be focused on the antedoctal aspect of the individual who told you of the exploit. If these exploits had a track history of actually getting fixed and support cases being fixed, there would be more interest in actually reporting them. There's no point in reporting anything if they are just going to be ignored anyway.

Throwing around TOS heavy-handedly serves no real purpose except to further strain a long-strained relationship between Mindark and the player base.
 

Hego Damask

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About a month ago, I was told about a possible exploit/cheat.
About which I won't give any details here, for obvious reasons.

Yesterday, I decided to tell MA about it, so I made a support case.
This is what can be wieved from what's new list section.

Dont get offended, my first question was also why the hell You not reporting it earlier if you know about it since a month.
 

~ Cirrus ~

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You are at fault in this instance not MA and their question is completely justified. You waited a month to tell them when you found out about an exploit.
Who knows if you or the person/s who told you about the exploit told others and if they or you exploited. It's actually very suspicious, not just to me but from MA's perspective too.

You should be grateful you didn't get punished for breaking ToS - you knew about the exploit for 1 month and others, and you chose to not report it until yesterday even though ToS states you should report it immediately otherwise.
Double uber yesterday, MA's pet today ?

You obviously need more time to think about it..

Cheaters are not worried at all.
But those who denounce cheating are...

With such a behavior, the choice of what to do when discovering an exploit will be easier and easier...
 

~ Cirrus ~

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This is what can be wieved from what's new list section.

Dont get offended, my first question was also why the hell You not reporting it earlier if you know about it since a month.
I'll not say much about exploit.

But basically, I took time, first of all because this is not my fuckin job, and I have better thing to do while spending my time.
Also I know MA, and I guess 99% chance they'll not do anything about it.
And I've been told this exploit is around for years already anyway...
And also, I didn't know if what the guy said to me was true or wrong. (I know the exploit, but don't know how to do it myself)
 

Sub-Zero

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Cheaters are not worried at all.
But those who denounce cheating are...

With such a behavior, the choice of what to do when discovering an exploit will be easier and easier...
I'll not say much about exploit.

Also I know MA, and I guess 99% chance they'll not do anything about it.
And I've been told this exploit is around for years already anyway...
And also, I didn't know if what the guy said to me was true or wrong. (I know the exploit, but don't know how to do it myself)
That is MA's fault for not taking sufficient action against exploiters. Because of their lack of action these repeat exploiters think they are untouchable.
I can understand one may say "why bother" to report an exploit, but then you become part of the problem you allow more time for the exploiters to exploit.

One should always report an exploit as soon as you found out about it, at least then MA could potentially fix it sooner and hopefully they change their unofficial policy on punishment and actually start punishing these repeat offenders.

Edit:
Oh looks like we got "yog 2.0."
 

agalvayne

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I can understand why you might feel slighted by them asking you that question, but on the back of the Yog debacle, in which we find support was made aware of an exploit and did not escalate it properly I can absolutely see why Mindark will take it more seriously going forward - if they aren't, they certainly should be.

With that in mind, it is a natural question to ask why you chose not to report it after being made aware of it until such a large period of time had elapsed. People hate exploiters in the game, this is a RCE after all, so cheaters leave a sour taste in everyones mouth. By not reporting, you potentially help it spread to others, or be abused until it's too late to do anything about it. Obviously I don't know what the exploit you're talking about is, but it is conceivable that is the case - like being unable to differentiate truly between yog exploiters and legitimate players levelling pets, or maybe an item duplication exploit that gets bought up by real players, the longer such things go on, the more difficult it is to rectify.

Personally I disagree that is not "your job" or your problem, as participants we all have a duty to report such things if and when we find them, otherwise how else will they get fixed (even if you don't think MA will take action, it puts the ball in their court), the exploiters won't willingly come forward with that information themselves, and we all agree to that every time we accept ToS, which is really all support remind you of. Not accusatory, just them doing their job.
 

Raffaele Meiers

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It's very easy:

Report it to MA.
When you do not get a response or MA does not act in reasonable time, like one week, post it on PCF with instruction how to use it.

At this point, Exploit is in public domain, MA must act and will do it immediately.

MA only fixes two kind of bugs immediately. The first priority have bugs that cost MA money, leads to Game beeing shut down until it is corrected.

Second way is when Bug is in public domain they know they have to act fast as otherwise so many people will use it that they would shut down EU forever if they would ban all who abused that bug like f.x. when MA "introduced" skill gain from slashing NPC's while the item did not decay many many VU's ago. You could enter any service center and only saw avatars slashing NPC's like mad.
 

qnaqnapow

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Why would you feel offended if you didn't use the "cheating method" yourself?
MA is just trying to start their investigation about it (which you reported), STARTING from you.

When you report a crime to police (Let's say, you report a murder case, you found a dead body), the police will ask you at least simple question in terms of their initial investigation 1) who you are, 2) what were you doing at that place, 3) when did you first found the body, 4) and so on.

Do you get it?
You do not need to feel offended by any type of investigation if you are not involved in that crime.
Which means, you are just helping them.
 

warmdogg

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Well... why did you wait a month to report it?
 

~ Cirrus ~

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Posts
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ToS says you need to report stuff immediately, you didnt do so, MA reminded you that you agreed to the ToS. Thats it?
Can you maybe not try to make issues whenever you feel like it ?
How would you feel ?
This si the title.

If you'd feel good whith it, nice.

Now it's about what I felt.
You know, when you reach out to someone to help them and what you get is a kick in the ass.

And that's to be taken in context of course...

Cheaters who are not punished.
MA who arranges with his own rules when it suits them.

The ToU says that exploits must be immediately reported ?
OK.
It also says that cheaters will be punished.

What about the guys who not only didn't report Yog horror cheat, but also used it for years ?..

I would say, start by following your own rules very strictly, if you want others to do the same...

I'm just getting really tired of the way MA "works", and what they do to this game.
And this was like the straw that breaks the camel's back.
So maybe I "over-feel" it, but that's what I felt, nothing more.
 
Last edited:

qnaqnapow

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Well... why did you wait a month to report it?
Hey man, let's not make an assumption that he used the exploit.
There are so many rumors about "this works or that works" and there are people who just ignore it assuming its just another rumor/theory.

Maybe he heard about it a month ago, and he just ignored it for a month.
And after a month, he realized it may be really happening as he was told by looking at other people using it. Then reported it..
 

~ Cirrus ~

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It's a constructive post, and it's welcome.

But just about this:

Personally I disagree that is not "your job" or your problem
I said it's not my job, but I didn't say it's not my problem.
It's not the same thing at all.

Of course it's my problem, but it's primarily MA's job to make sure the game is bug-free, cheating-free, etc...

And probably people would be happy to help them if they felt that MA is doing this job seriously regarding bugs exploit and cheating.

If I feel that MA is not doing anything against cheaters, and that they are not actively working to find them, and that they don't punish them.
Then by reporting the cheats, I am doing their job for them.

So when I do this, and I get blamed for not doing it fast enough, I find it offensive to say the least...

I actually feel like they're blaming me for poorly doing the work that they don't do at all.
 

agalvayne

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Just to be clear, i'm not blaming you, nor accusing you of anything, just responding to the question posed and looking at it from another perspective.
<...>
I said it's not my job, but I didn't say it's not my problem.
It's not the same thing at all.

Of course it's my problem, but it's primarily MA's job to make sure the game is bug-free, cheating-free, etc...
<...>
It is of course Mindark's job to fix bugs, they are the developers of the system, you get no disagreement from me there. Although in a system this large and complicated, finding all the possible bugs is an exercise in itself. Truly the only way to find them all is through player discovery. In this sense, if it is Mindark's job to fix the bugs, it is as much our duty in reporting them so they know what to fix.

I also feel there should be a distinction between a bug and an exploit, both may negatively affect the game in some way, while in my opinon, the latter is something that can be abused for personal gain. I don't know if this is a correct definition, but it is the one I'm working with while reading threads like these. Maybe both should be reported, but there is definitely a difference in priority between someone being able to fall through the roof of a service centre, instead of using the door. and someone being able to list auction items without a fee, for instance.
You yourself chose the word exploit, implying there is an advantage that could be gained from using this particular bug. That makes it upmost important to report without delay, anything else is a value judgement as to whether the behaviour is acceptable (maybe some trader sees this hypothetical auction bug as acceptable, where they would not bother reporting, but would not hesitate to report the ability to loot a dead creature twice and double every kill). I do not make such judgements, I would report everything and allow mindark to make the decision of priority of fix, and judge that instead.

I am sorry you feel offended by their response, i'm not convinced they are actually trying to suggest any wrongdoing though, just clarifying your reponsibilities as accepted in ToS, and basic questions to begin investigations as you raised it to them (someone else compared to police asking you Who you are/How you discovered body, etc. in a real life investigation)
 

Liu

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About a month ago, I was told about a possible exploit/cheat.
About which I won't give any details here, for obvious reasons.

Yesterday, I decided to tell MA about it, so I made a support case.
Also giving them a screenshot of the chat, on which the date appears.


Here is the answer I got:

----------------------------------------

"Hi,

Thank you for contacting us.

We're glad you reported this to us, we will further investigate xxx.

May we ask why you waited since [2020-xx-xx 00:27:09] when you had this conversation with this player, to report this to us?

Thank you for your cooperation.

Kind regards,
xxx | Entropia Universe Support

----------------------------------------

And I'm talking about it here, because I felt offended by this question.
I don't know what you think about it, but this question they're asking me seems totally inappropriate to me.

Let summarize.

I pay for this game (a lot of money)
I could hope at worst a game without bugs, without cheating.. (and why not without lag)
I don't have any of that !

I spend time to report a possible exploit, in order to help them.
So in short, I'm doing MA's job. (It's not my job to discover exploit/cheat, it's their)

And what I get is a reproach that I took too much time.

And probably I'm even suspected, since I can't see any other reason for this question, than the fact they think I would have taken time trying to use this exploit myself.

That's about what I replied to them, then here's what they said:

----------------------------------------

Hi,

Thank you for replying.

"Dicovering cheating is not supposed to be my job."

As mentioned in our rules of conduct which you accept every time you start Entropia Universe:

8. Rules of Conduct for the Entropia Universe

"You must immediately report errors and bugs in the Entropia Universe to MindArk whenever You discover them. You may not “cheat” or otherwise neglect to report errors or bugs, use bugs, slow connection, Internet latency, or other 'exploits' for own benefits or for the benefit of others."

We hope this helped you understand why we asked you this and we hope you report bugs and/or exploits in a more timely manner next time.

Take care!

Kind regards,
xxx | Entropia Universe Support

----------------------------------------


So guys, if you know about an exploit, report it quickly (Soon™), cause we all know MA's legendary speed and reactivity, so you have to be as fast as them !.. right ?

Pay MA for a product, then do their job, and do it vey well and fast or you'll be blamed !
Moral of the story ?

Next time, dont say anything and keep exploiting.
 

mspatterson

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i think theyre treating it just like the law would if you knew someone that just robbed a bank and didnt report it... youd be considered an accomplice!
 

Thorns Rose

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I would actually post the exploit right here, that's just me.
( I have never been very good at patience.)

If you do post it , one of three things may happen:

* Players start using it and MA loses money

* Players start using it and MA takes note of which players and hopefully bans them

* Mindark actually fixes it

If not mentioned before, Thank you for reporting it.
 

Jhereg

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Perfectly fair question on MA's side in my view...

Perhaps they are learning something from the Yog exploit debacle...
 

Jhereg

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But the real question is, why did you wait a month? :D We all want to know
 

qnaqnapow

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But the real question is, why did you wait a month? :D We all want to know
1) He waited bcuz he didn't test it himself or did not believe it will work (which is totally fine)

2) He waited bcuz he tested himself whether it really works or not for A MONTH!!! (which is BAD)

But I think, in the replies above, he mentioned he didn't try himself
 

Jhereg

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1) He waited bcuz he didn't test it himself or did not believe it will work (which is totally fine)

2) He waited bcuz he tested himself whether it really works or not for A MONTH!!! (which is BAD)

But I think, in the replies above, he mentioned he didn't try himself
Sure but then why did he wait a whole month? I'll conjecture he knew people who were using the exploit, and did not come forward immediately not want friends who were using the exploit to get caught. Obviously, MA will want to know where he learned of this exploit for if he has not tested it himself...

Anyways, just a conjecture, not fact, but there's a lot of this story that's not clear from what the OP has said. If the OP wants sympathy from the forum, I don't think he will get it here.

Honesty is the best policy.
 

~ Cirrus ~

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Moral of the story ?

Next time, dont say anything and keep exploiting.
If I take this personally, I would say that in order to keep cheating, I would have to already started.
Which is not the case.

And I think I've made enough posts (too many?) on this forum, saying that MA should actively work against cheating, and severely punish cheaters.
 

mastermesh

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Why didn't you wait a full year? Seriously though, stuff like that yog exploit did get reported early on and support didn't do didly about it for a couple of years... so... suspect they are trying to do their job better by asking questions like this even though really you are right, they should word the questions better.
 

NoBion

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Im split here, because i also think that report should be sent asap after discovered, but words are a dead language without emotes, which left the question from support capable of being viewed at different. Some will see it just as a simple questions, while others will read a lot between the lines, including thread starter who find the question very negatively meant.
 

qnaqnapow

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Sure but then why did he wait a whole month? I'll conjecture he knew people who were using the exploit, and did not come forward immediately not want friends who were using the exploit to get caught. Obviously, MA will want to know where he learned of this exploit for if he has not tested it himself...

Anyways, just a conjecture, not fact, but there's a lot of this story that's not clear from what the OP has said.
Read the very first thing this guy wrote and the answer from MA. I think MA already know the chat log he had conversation with someone.

If we are not going to ask every one of people who used this thing "why didn't you report this for XXX amount of period",
I don't think this is an issue right now ;)

I just wanna know what the exploit is!!! So that I can be either angry or whatever lol

If it is similar to YOG, I will be really pissed and start asking questions just as same as you " why did u wait", "did u really not use it", "did you want to protect your friends, why?" and so on.
 

~ Cirrus ~

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Sure but then why did he wait a whole month? I'll conjecture he knew people who were using the exploit, and did not come forward immediately not want friends who were using the exploit to get caught. Obviously, MA will want to know where he learned of this exploit for if he has not tested it himself...

Anyways, just a conjecture, not fact, but there's a lot of this story that's not clear from what the OP has said. If the OP wants sympathy from the forum, I don't think he will get it here.

Honesty is the best policy.
I don't want for your sympathy.
I think I've already explained why I write it here.

Just seeing even here now I'm suspected is amazing to me..

And I guess people seeing this will think twice before they report any exploit in the future..

Welcome to upside down world..
 
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