Info: Huge investor promises to revamp the dynamics of Entropia Universe loot returns.

[Jimmy B]

Number crunching after 3 years of precise accurate logs for the Australian government agency I working for taught me one thing .... Don't do it in EU, your wasting your time. For the most part anyway.

You pay to play, simple as that, you invest HEAVILY to make a very small ROI. Tiny even.

Not really true. You pay MA to play, and if you play the MU game well you can cover that cost and more. It's not easy, but it doesn't require heavy investment. There are always niches you can find where you can turn a small profit with markup. Yes, you can earn more working in your local Burger King, but that's work and this is entertainment. I like entertainment where, if I play wisely, I can turn a small profit.

 

[Viperstrike]

Not really true. You pay MA to play, and if you play the MU game well you can cover that cost and more. It's not easy, but it doesn't require heavy investment. There are always niches you can find where you can turn a small profit with markup. Yes, you can earn more working in your local Burger King, but that's work and this is entertainment. I like entertainment where, if I play wisely, I can turn a small profit.

This is true and you have the right attitude Jimmy,
Many however don't have this attitude, 3k a week wages, this game could never compare.

A dollar here and a dollar there, for entertainment, sure that is having fun.

But to think you will be handed a golden spoon, like an opportunity on a dozen or so LAs for 30k usd to 100k usd. Those days are gone and dead. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity that will NEVER exist again on any planet in Entropia Universe.

This statement I say as fact, you can mark my words. It was only for the lucky 2 people in EU - Jon & David who saw a nice opportunity with a huge risk that paid off. I didn;t include Qetesh in this equation as he has paid a lot for his LAs in comparison and made very little back in comparsion to the prior mentioned.

It is all about attitude and having some fun (entertainment) doing it.

In which case, you have it down pat!

Have fun and turn that tiny profit here and there on the portions of PED spent that you can.

 

[aridash]

It is still dynamic in that weapons offer a 2.8 - 3.2 dmg/pec and that you use different healing equipment and armor (and plates) for mobs. You also have the skill dependency of economy using the current item wether it be 10.0/10.0 or still getting to that stage.

well now here are the problems with the idea of a guaranteed 80%. it makes eco pointless, because i'll get the same return - or is the 80% the base line for those using the best dmg/pec? so those on the low are actually going to be on around 70%. the same goes for skills, do skills not matter or is the 80% a baseline for those on 10/10? (and do we end up with 60% for low eco/no skills... maybe not so different )

there probably is a market for such a game, but thats just it, its a different game not an adjustment of this one.

 

[Konve]

the OP is suggesting outright 80% return on each loot event. not an average.

I understood it as 80 % from every mob plus 4 % to some form of "global pool", which would give an average of 84 % returned in the end.

(...)
So here is the basics:

All we are doing is placing in one variable quantifier offering a standard baseline 80% return along with additional factors which all impact that return such as economy/effeciency/equipment used and the counter loots as mentioned in the OP.

(...)

Anyhoooooooo, I think this concept flew over a lot of peoples heads, some of you get it, some of you are just blind fanboys and gals and some just lack the willingness to use the potential between your ears. No offense meant but it is just so true!

(...)

The problem is not that people don't understand it, but rather that your concept is not very attractive to them. The biggest issue is probably the 4 % to globals-thingy.

If you're killing mobs that take 3 PED to kill; in order to get a 200 PED global with a 200 PED tt (L) weapon in it, you would have to kill on average 1667 mobs (417 to even get a global at all). This while losing 800 PED TT directly and getting 4000 PED oils etc. Doesn't sound much fun to me.

 

[Viperstrike]

well now here are the problems with the idea of a guaranteed 80%. it makes eco pointless, because i'll get the same return - or is the 80% the base line for those using the best dmg/pec? so those on the low are actually going to be on around 70%. the same goes for skills, do skills not matter or is the 80% a baseline for those on 10/10? (and do we end up with 60% for low eco/no skills... maybe not so different )

there probably is a market for such a game, but thats just it, its a different game not an adjustment of this one.

And this I should have been more specific about.

80% is a baseline average.

Meaning at 3 Dmg per PEC you will see a return of 80% flat.

Remember most weapons are 2.8 to 3.2

Then you have your effeciency of that weapon 10.0/10.0 or are you only at 6.4/10.0 on hit and damage.

Would have it been wiser to keep to the level of weapon lower at 10.0/10.0 until the next weapon is maxed out at 10.0/10.0 or do you want to move up to the 6.4/10.0 next sibs weapon and trade it off for faster skilling (Sibs skill increase bonus) whereby your loot will suffer, but only marginally.

I didn;t want to go into too much detail there because the devs can work out such things on their own.

See you either play to skill to be more uber quicker, to have fun, to play to profit through economy or effeciency depending on your items and or levels. This is what will also restore market value to items, people knowing such things and not having to work it all out on their own - A beginners guide to styles of play and their potential outcomes would come in useful too.

Anyway before I go offtrack, yes multiple things impact the 80% baseline, but only margainally to make it a slight negative or positive to the average 3 DMG economy/PEC spec used as a foundation to calculate the outcome.

Ultimately meaning, you don't have to be 10.0/10.0 to get the guaranteed 80% return, an economy of let us say 8.5/10.0 will see you a nice guaranteed return of 80% (if using the right armor and accessories for the job with similar economy per hit or in the case of FAP use)


If it is the case you are using a weapon at 8.0/10.0 doing 3.2 dmg/pec weapon then ofc you will have a higher return than 80% each run.

Same would be the case if you using a 10.0/10.0 doing 2.8 dmg/pec you will have similar results.

Far better if you had both a weapon at 10.0/10.0 doing 3.2 dmg/pec again you will see a marginally greater return than 80%, maybe 82%

So let us say there are factors that can make the 80% guaranteed return swing in favour or against a greater or lesser return.

However don't expect big swings, only small ones.

The rest is upto the market value markup %, the SIBs skill bonus vs skill price point in profit you are making gaining at the rate of SIBs enabled, the 4 counters of potential loot and fiscal (PED value) gains mentioned in the OP and other factors such as using the right armor & Fap for the job...... etc etc

Hope that helps.

 

[Konve]

So let us say there are factors that can make the 80% guaranteed return swing in favour or against a greater or lesser return.

However don't expect big swings, only small ones.

The rest is upto the market value markup %, the SIBs skill bonus vs skill price point in profit you are making gaining at the rate of SIBs enabled, the 4 counters of potential loot and fiscal (PED value) gains mentioned in the OP and other factors such as using the right armor & Fap for the job...... etc etc

This does in no way, shape or form differ from the current system. With two exceptions: You removed no looters and turned down the global rate.

And I don't understand if you want this to be a statistical loot system, or if the database will manage each avatar separately to make 100 % sure everyone gets at least 80 % (?).

 

[Viperstrike]

If you're killing mobs that take 3 PED to kill; in order to get a 200 PED global with a 200 PED tt (L) weapon in it, you would have to kill on average 1667 mobs (417 to even get a global at all). This while losing 800 PED TT directly and getting 4000 PED oils etc. Doesn't sound much fun to me.

A 3 PED mob would equate to the following,

3 PED to kill (100% cost)

Distribution:

2.40 PED to you if within the average range of economy (Doing it right with flexibility inbuilt for slight variance)
0.24 PEC to MA to pay for staff, servers, etc + profit for whatever is left
0.24 PEC to PP to pay for staff, Planet Land Deeds, etc + profit for whatever is left

0.12 PED to counters loot pool
50% toward globals/uncommon-loot,
25% HoF/rare-loot,
25% towards ATH/common loot

0.06 pec to globals/uncommon RNG 2500 to 5000 = A global size of 150 to 300 PED
0.03 to HoF/rare RNG 25000 to 50000 = HoF potential of 1500 to 3000 PED
0.03 toward ATH/HoF 2500 to 250000 = HoF or ATH potential of 150 to 15000 PED

And a 4th counter for Uber Loots, eg. Shadow, angel, UnL Sib item (insert name here), etc dropped at 0.01 PEC to be repaired before use.


Once a RNG has expired (Gone off and awarded the loot) it starts again selecting a new random number between the ranges. There are only a few hundred mobs in Entropia so the LOOT subsystem would only need to handle a few thousand counters for the few hundred mobs in EU.

 

[Viperstrike]

Keep in mind Konve for the above post, we have hundreds of people playing at any one given time, the counters are universal, not personal.

Meaning if there are 100 players all killing Argonauts and each kills 25 Argonauts, we have 2500 mobs killed.

If the global counter 2500 to 5000 happened to be 2500, then it would go off and the person who killed the 25th hundred Argonaut would collect the global which in this case in my OP example at 2 PEC per kill would be a (L) item upto 50 PED in value + common loot from the loot table if the full TT of that (L) item was less than 50 PED.

 

[Viperstrike]

Time for some more MindForce,

Maybe see you guys ingame sometime

 

[Konve]

A 3 PED mob would equate to the following,

3 PED to kill (100% cost)

Distribution:

2.40 PED to you if within the average range of economy (Doing it right with flexibility inbuilt for slight variance)
0.24 PEC to MA to pay for staff, servers, etc + profit for whatever is left
0.24 PEC to PP to pay for staff, Planet Land Deeds, etc + profit for whatever is left

0.12 PED to counters loot pool
50% toward globals/uncommon-loot,
25% HoF/rare-loot,
25% towards ATH/common loot

0.06 pec to globals/uncommon RNG 2500 to 5000 = A global size of 150 to 300 PED
0.03 to HoF/rare RNG 25000 to 50000 = HoF potential of 1500 to 3000 PED
0.03 toward ATH/HoF 2500 to 250000 = HoF or ATH potential of 150 to 15000 PED

And a 4th counter for Uber Loots, eg. Shadow, angel, UnL Sib item (insert name here), etc dropped at 0.01 PEC to be repaired before use.


Once a RNG has expired (Gone off and awarded the loot) it starts again selecting a new random number between the ranges. There are only a few hundred mobs in Entropia so the LOOT subsystem would only need to handle a few thousand counters for the few hundred mobs in EU.

Keep in mind Konve for the above post, we have hundreds of people playing at any one given time, the counters are universal, not personal.

Meaning if there are 100 players all killing Argonauts and each kills 25 Argonauts, we have 2500 mobs killed.

If the global counter 2500 to 5000 happened to be 2500, then it would go off and the person who killed the 25th hundred Argonaut would collect the global which in this case in my OP example at 2 PEC per kill would be a (L) item upto 50 PED in value + common loot from the loot table if the full TT of that (L) item was less than 50 PED.

Well that is more or less what I described.

I don't think you understand the concept of an average return. 100 people hunting 25 mobs each where one of them has a global - that's exactly the same as 1 person hunting 2500 mobs on his own to score a single global.

Where is the fun in that? There is none.

And then there's the fact that your system demans more server power to handle the loot distribution. The current system is based on chance with a random element. "0.001 % chance to get a loot/damage multiplier equal to something which might be described as a HoF by the community" etc. There are threads and actual studies that have looked as how loot is distributed - together with statements from Mindark themselves - everything points to a statistical distribution. Which make sense, because then you don't need another twenty servers to handle all the mob and avatar related loot pools.

There is no loot pool.

I made my point, I shall now go outside to see if the sun is still out.

 

[Crone]

Crone is a wise man, but is Crone all there today.

...The costs are covered here per kill made:

So in short,
1 PED to kill,
80 PEC back to the player as normal,
4 PEC back to the player as a potential,
8 PEC to MA AB
8 PEC to Planet Partner.

Hope that helps...

Crone is not there all day But today, all is there when Crone is.

But this picture is not complete. This is only the revenue side. And even for a revenue side it is far from complete. In the end you need to know two things: (1) money in and (2) money out.

You don't know none of the above in the opening post. Since you have no idea how many "argo's" will be killed. Then there's this tax problem. The above won't hold in any corporate income tax statement unless you're in some shady coconut state. (Crone doesn't want to insult any coconut island, only the shady ones.)

8 pec to cover MA AB, 8 pec to cover PP (4 in case of Calypso and 4 pec to cover CLD returns). What amount does this add up to in USD and will that be enough for personel, office and servers? And most important of all, will you generate enough cash to actually pay everything?

This is why Crone says "threaten his hobby". There's no complete picture yet. That leads to surprises which leads to the curators. (Is that a good english term?)

 

[Artrat]

I currently pay less than 16 pec per ped to MA/PP. It's currently about 12 based on TT, and that's without being particularly eco.

This system would produce lower returns for me, as well as being mind-numbingly boring.

 

[Fifth]

I think this concept flew over a lot of peoples heads

No offense, but i'm afraid the way EU works atm flew a little over your head...
Not saying the system is perfect as it is. There's no perfect things, everything can be improved.
Most realistic improvement is probably what MA is (finally) already doing - trying to increase the playerbase. More players, lower cost to play, even the best system won't work with too small customer base.

 

[Majstorex]

Nice try, However can you please play the game a bit longer, spend a bit more before speaking of loot system? Honestly, if you have less than 500k in global/hof, it is very hard for you to imagine how the system works. Play for a bit longer then you will understand.

LMFAo you realy made me laugh there, so in order for anyone to understand the game he must first spend 50k usd?

seriusly just rofl

 

[Viperstrike]

Understand the PSYCHOLOGY please. Human behaviour and retaining faith & trust in Entropia.

No offense, but i'm afraid the way EU works atm flew a little over your head...
Not saying the system is perfect as it is. There's no perfect things, everything can be improved.
Most realistic improvement is probably what MA is (finally) already doing - trying to increase the playerbase. More players, lower cost to play, even the best system won't work with too small customer base.

Refraining from replying further as people do not seem to understand the underlaying PSYCHOLOGY of what is trying to be achieved.

There is not a problem with how entropia itself works, there is a problem with the way people's minds & belief systems and need for an understanding works, so I say again in brief :

Below is bolded and underlined the catch:

So here is the basics:

All we are doing is placing in one variable quantifier offering a standard baseline 80% return along with additional factors which all impact that return such as economy/effeciency/equipment used and the counter loots as mentioned in the OP.

Putting in this what I would call a stablizing factor would bring back people to the game having a knowledge of what to expect, almost like how we lean on our chosen GOD for our faith, it is a stablizier for many in the real world. (Not that god has anything to do with this subject, it is just an example of a stablizier/crutch/firm grounding point - Let Lootius bless you all!)

Anyhoooooooo, I think this concept flew over a lot of peoples heads, some of you get it, some of you are just blind fanboys and gals and some just lack the willingness to use the potential between your ears. No offense meant but it is just so true!

Enjoy the game and have fun. I was only looking at a solution to the current predicament Jan W finds himself in with all these questionaires and wanting people to return to the game - No even bothering to ask the main question about loot and return rates /sigh, what a waste of fucking time that could be spent doing it right.

Advertising and trying to increase the playerbase will have the same result as time that has gone by thus far, people come and they will leave just as quickly until something can be done to retentively keep them here in Entropia.

The loot system is the first step to achieving this as people mostly (a good 95% of players) complain about this, ingame, on Entropia forums, on other forums and it is the underlaying concept of this game RCFME - Real Cash Free Market Economy.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

LMFAo you realy made me laugh there, so in order for anyone to understand the game he must first spend 50k usd?

seriusly just rofl

While I do not agree with his statement, he did not say that you have to spend 50kUSD.

 

[~CHOPPER~]

Please note: This of course is fictional at this stage with the potential to become non-fictional.




See you soon,
Signed: Viper 01/04/13

Cute...
Now wake up and go to work.

 

[tamlin]

While I do not agree with his statement, he did not say that you have to spend 50kUSD.

Correct. He said 50k USD in global's/hof's, meaning one would have to spend a minimum of ten, probably over a hundred times as much.

So now we're talking 500k-5 million USD that needs to be spent.

Is that better?

 

[sasha]

Viperstrike respect

 

[Neil Stockton]

The average weapon does 3.0 dmg/pec? I haven't been playing this game as long as some, but I fail to see how this is at all realistic.

For 99% of players, a great weapon does 2.95 dmg/pec and the "average" careful player gets probably 2.8. A large number of low level players are using non-sib guns, doing 2.4 dmg/pec. Those old school 3.0+ weapons are less than 2.8 if you're under level 80.

Most of the people I hear complaining about loot returns (not on the forums, but actual players in game)

1) are new
2) don't go on long enough runs
3) are using inappropriate equipment
4) picked the wrong mob/mining location for their pedcard
5) have not played much recently
6) TT too much loot

In other words, don't understand loot distribution.

However, I do think that there could be some small adjustments to the loot distribution to make certain levels of hunting more accessible to players with smaller ped cards. For instance, make a few mobs of various levels for players who can only go on 50 ped runs... make them very low variance loot (80% is way too low tho).

 

[wizzszz]

I have seen many changes in the loot system from VU 5 and up.

There were no changes to the loot system, according to MA...

 

[Viperstrike]

There were no changes to the loot system, according to MA...

Hehehe Muhahaha Yep so I have heard that one too
Except when they do every ruleset in the balancing engine

 

[Viperstrike]

Now that people have a clearer picture, do we see the psychology in it all. Protecting the future of Entropia!

As proposed, changes to foundation of Entropia may be needed in the near future to combat the likes of new upstarts like Diablo 3 in which you can make good real life money at even the low levels.

I myself have sold 4 items there in 20 hours play as a newbie and have achieved 230 USD so far profit.

The proposed loot system changes in the OP are not static changes, it is only a simple example of what can be done to adjust to meet the demand of the mindset(s) of the player(s) involved in Entropia Universe.

In other words, they were just a sample - Be it a good or bad one, doesn't matter - It is the concept that was important

Setting some, stablizing factors, will ensure that people are well prepared and grounded with their entry and continued adventure in the Entropia Universe.

RCE is the underlaying concept of Entropia Universe, the loot system is the first starting point to making the adjustments needed to meet all (85%+) individuals psychological needs for continued lure and attachment to this game.

Enjoy, and if your not sure what I am talking about, please re-read my posts in this thread, including the OP and catch posts.

 

[Viperstrike]

Bump.

Hi,

i see no further discussion on this topic ?

What are peoples thoughts and feelings to combating the leaving participants of higher level and upstarts such as Diablo 3 RCE ?

Regards,
Viper

 

[Viperstrike]

Rough around the edges, however I do wish the best long term. I am here to stay as a retiree

Hi All,

I do note that i am rough around the edges, most would have previously known myself as Fire Sparkz Lavawalker - 2.5 years almost 3 of play with 280k skills before chipping out for work.

Retired toon now. Work would not let me continue on with Lavawalker.

Yes I was involved with a team of 5 others in investigating Entropia for filtering purposes - Illegal casino or not.

EU passed as a result of a number of partcipants input into the final conclusion, including DD and DS who were involved in great detail. Sorry i wish not to give further details on who DS and DD are, most of you know who I am speaking of.

Least to say i am now retired (due to an unfortunate accident at work) and this is a game I will play and pay for long term having almost deposited $ 1600 usd since returning a week and a bit ago.

I would like to invite intelligent and constructive conversation to be added to this thread in an attempt to distingush and eliminate future possible risks to Entropia. Leaving participants & upstarts such as Diablo 3 with others to enter the scene in the near future.

If you feel like you have anything of value to add to this conversation, please do. I know we already have the attention of Kim and Jan on this one

Cheers,

Viper / Andy

 

[Crone]

If you insist Crone likes the economical stuff a lot.

The investor would like to see cash. Who cares about profit if you get cash? So the most important is to generate cash. The investor would like to see around 10-15% cash on his investment as minimum. How large is this investment? This investment will be low. Why? Because MA is not generating much profit, is she?

This should be your calculation:

+deposits
+advertising INCOME
+interest
=cash in

-payroll
-other personell costs
-rent (office)
-servers(maintenance/rent)
-marketing
-office costs
-other

=operational cash out

+cash in
-operational cash out
=operational cashflow

-INTEREST OUT TO INVESTORS(preferable to some nice place like Luxembourgh or Guernsey)
-exceptional cash out
-taxes (also see interest, this should be close to zero)
=financial cash out

+operational cashflow
-financial cash out
=net cashflow (security for the investors, the higher the better)

Fill in this list from bottom to top, yes, Crone has a bit of an excentric way of finances, and you know what your revenue has to be. Since Jan is watching the thread, he could maybe give you a better idea of how their revenue is build. Number of depositing players, average size of deposits, seasonal patterns, 80-20 rule? (or something close maybe?), any other characteristics the new investor should know about the revenue?

Wait... Crone doesn't see any loot in this story.

Viperstrike, can you please explain Crone why you need 8 PEC or 16 PEC or even 100 PEC of every PED spent hunting argonauts to cover costs? The only thing you need to do is to control the amount of possible withdrawels and deposits. MA seems to have a very active way of controlling withdrawels. They have a 6 week(?) period to make the payments, which allows them to push withdrawels forward. Very nice. But that's not the only method. They also control loot. 100 PED in, less than 50 PED out not including decay mining on FOMA? (Are you reading this too Jan? Sorry little joke.) That's a very effective way of avoiding withdrawels.

How much of every ATH is actually withdrawn? When do people withdraw, at loss or profit? How much do people withdraw on average, how often, who, seasonal, 80-20? Wow same questions as for the deposits.

There's also another way, keeping people happy and give them something to do. But remember, WOW lost 10% of it's playerbase in a "couple of months"? There's different people in this game for different reasons. First: name them, second: describe them, third: please them.

If you would ask Crone: the majority just wants their PED (investments) back

Seriously, why appoint loot to something called "cover costs"? Your personell won't accept PED, neither will the landlord.

 

[Viperstrike]

Hi Crone,

Maybe MA can do better than 80%, I am not sure.

ATM I am averaging about 71% return last roughly 4,000 ped runs (10 runs 400 ped each) in last 3 days.

I know you like to see a lot of economical stuff, but example in OP was just an example.

I was suggesting only that we start at the loot system as our first stop being that the underlaying concept is RCE.

I am more looking for what kind of lures and attractions/addictions can be put in place to keep the player playing.

Its a tough question though i feel strongly that the current rulesets set in the loot system ruleset engine are not right and fit for keeping people in game. They need to be somewhat simplified and through transparancy a level of knowledge has to be given to the player to allow them feel empowered that they are on the right track - wether they be or not doesn't really matter as long as they keep depositing and playing Entropia

^^ I know that sounds a bit sneaky, however this game does need to survive and pay the bills at the end of the day.

Cheers,
Viper

 

[Crone]

Hi Crone,

Maybe MA can do better than 80%, I am not sure.

ATM I am averaging about 71% return last roughly 4,000 ped runs (10 runs 400 ped each) in last 3 days.

Nice, well done!

I am more looking for what kind of lures and attractions/addictions can be put in place to keep the player playing.

Its a tough question though i feel strongly that the current rulesets set in the loot system ruleset engine are not right and fit for keeping people in game. They need to be somewhat simplified and through transparancy a level of knowledge has to be given to the player to allow them feel empowered that they are on the right track - wether they be or not doesn't really matter as long as they keep depositing and playing Entropia

Keeping players interested is the game. Most of the people Crone met are gamblers or people "seeking" people, wether that is for status or for social contacts. Only a few are actually here to make a profit.

I was suggesting only that we start at the loot system as our first stop being that the underlaying concept is RCE.
...
^^ I know that sounds a bit sneaky, however this game does need to survive and pay the bills at the end of the day.

These two are not depending on eachother. The bills are paid by the deposits made. Deposits are made when people are playing, and yes that is influenced by the "loot". Only thing Crone does not understand is why you calculate MA's part in this loot. They can't do anything with PEC. They need to let PED flow out of the system. Much like stock exchange when it's bad. But then it's a positive thing for MA. When PED is vanished players need to deposit. Personally, Crone thinks the current system is good. MA takes decay, players take ammo. (Crafters pay decay through refiners, usually the miners do, but that's calculated in the resource prices.)

But player guaranteed loot sounds a bit strange. Here's the problem: Crone goes mining on Calypso and loses a lot. Then Crone takes his Quadwing and flies to Arkadia where Crone hits the jackpot. What will Crone do? Stick on Arkadia or go back to Calypso? Crone's jackpot was actually created by the loss on Calypso. Planet Partners (will or atleast should) demand loot being influenced by geography and not by personal spendings.

Then there's this: Crone will mine at high mark up ores knowing he will get 80% anyways (now he gets about 60%, result: loss, mostly, high profit when lucky). Everyone would, that would mean mark up will level out over all ores to about the same level. The return will be constant. That's no fun. How can Crone, or atleast have the impression, influence his returns?

 

[Spawn]

I like the idea that snable youngs and puny mobs could also global.. regularly. Would give new players new incentive to keep playing. I remember looting pretty good stuff from low level mobs in my days. Would be cool to see that returned.

 

[Jimmy B]

I would like to invite intelligent and constructive conversation to be added to this thread

It's pretty hard to have an intelligent and constructive conversation when you start insulting the people disagreeing with you, e.g. "Anyhoooooooo, I think this concept flew over a lot of peoples heads, some of you get it, some of you are just blind fanboys and gals and some just lack the willingness to use the potential between your ears.", and trying to strengthen your argument with irrelevant references like "Number crunching after 3 years of precise accurate logs for the Australian government agency I working for taught me one thing....".

The way to win debates is with strong arguments, not insults and telling us who you were working for. Trust me, I've had 7 jobs, got 3 degrees, had 17 sexual partners, and I'm 6 foot, 3 inches tall... so I must know what I'm talking about.

I still think the original thread post was a ridiculous suggestion. Essentially it's a fruit machine with a 20% payout. If I put a $1 coin in a fruit machine and it returns 80cents every time, and occasionally more, then all I am doing is playing a 20cent fruit machine that pretends its a $1 fruit machine. The return rate you suggest is significantly worse than all long-term logs with sensible play that I've seen published here.

Your assumption that EU's problem is the loot is problematic too. Sure it is what is whined about the most. But go onto any skill-gaming or poker site and you'll see similar whining. It's inevitable. If loot return was 110%, there would still be people whining. Yes, we all want more loot, and yes it's what we whine about. But it's not why everyone leaves, most people whining about loot are still here whining about loot years later. People leave because they're bored. Imo, the main problem is the lack of players, the lack of knowledge of EU in the general populace, all the fractures, disjointedness, buck-passing, and waste created by having multiple and unnecessary planet partners, and last, but very much not least, the fact that the gameplay is often very very repetitive. I think MA are working on all of those things to various extents.

You cite for instance questionaires and MA wanting people to return to the game as a sign of a problem. All companies with customers, also lose customers. Finding out as much as you can about why is sensible, as is trying to get some of them back. It would be more of a sign of trouble if MA weren't doing these things.

Finally, you say you're interested in protecting the future of EU, and then follow that up with a wonderful plug for Diablo 3. The comparison is not really reasonable, EU is well-established, people understand it and there aren't going to be huge easy profits to be made any more. The stat you state of making $230 in 20hrs of play cannot be representative of Diablo 3 in general. Either you are doing something much more intelligently than the average player, or you got very lucky (if not thousands of people will be doing the same thing soon, and the market will eventually balance out).

Honestly, think about the PSYCHOLOGY of it all!