Hunting - balancing level progression

[John B Knight]

Hunting - balancing level progression

Having written this in Loot 1.0 times and looking back of how mcuh has come true, i just meant to say:

Thank you for Loot 2.0, Efficiency, Looter professions and DPP lvl progression

Hope remains that these changes will be finally fully incorporated in space weaponry as well , giving us more choice in weapons to shoot and more impact of the gunner profession in how efficient/dpp turrets can be shot.

We all know that as we progress in Entropia and gain higher levels we gain the skills to use stronger weapons, hunt stronger mobs, cycle more peds but what i keep noticing again and again is people who are unhappy with the bankroll they need to kill these bigger mobs.
As a matter of fact many players improve up to a certain hunting/mob levels till they outgrow their own budget and have to make a decision: to either hunt smaller mobs which they can afford or to stop playing until they can afford again the mobs they enjoy killing.
So what is the joy/fun in hunting, most gamers out there would say to face an opponent that takes skill to beat who is a challenge and/or to loot something big.
Most encounters in entropia are mainly about killing mobs with more and more hitpoints, throwing more and more firepower at them and less about skills - many smaller mobs are more about grinding through endless amounts instead of planning and executing a skillfull attack.
Of course mindark earns alot of money from players who keep cycling it, but midnark earns no money from players who dont cycle it - this often ends us up with encounters to make us cycle peds - however i feel that allowing players to cycle peds longer and more often would still earn mindark the budget those players have and in turn give them more happy customers who might recommend their game to others.
Improving through the levelrange should not just be about more firepower and bigger bankrolls, it should also be about more long lasting fun a game that is enjoyable even at very high levels against very though mobs with a small bankroll.
How could Mindark match this goal or having a more satisfied, more active playerbase without earning less or changing the lootsystem entirely ?

Based on the premise that successchance to loot big is next to other factors partially based on a actual dps ranking aquired by players over time. (This is my perception from hunting many years actively in space were alot of the other hunting parameters are set and unchangeable.)
In my opinion a new type of weapons could be introduced to the game, which would do all that the current weapons do but also have an additional effect - they would decrease the dps rank aquired from players in exchange for a minimum loot cap.
Means any mob killed by such a weapon would atleast return the minimum loot set by this cap but wielders of such a weapon would have a harder time to compete for globals/hofs/ath/shared loot.
Equipping such a weapon would automatically disband a player from a team, except if the team has usage of this weapon type enabled - this setting would have to be included in team creation process and team setting display.
As an example there could be weapons usable at (actual numbers are of course matter of the balancing team to decide):
profession level 10 which give a minimum loot of 5% decay(including ammo)
profession level 20 which give a minimum loot of 10% decay(including ammo)
profession level 30 which give a minimum loot of 15% decay(including ammo)
profession level 40 which give a minimum loot of 20% decay(including ammo)
profession level 50 which give a minimum loot of 25% decay(including ammo)
profession level 60 which give a minimum loot of 30% decay(including ammo)
profession level 70 which give a minimum loot of 35% decay(including ammo)
profession level 80 which give a minimum loot of 40% decay(including ammo)
profession level 90 which give a minimum loot of 45% decay(including ammo)
profession level 100 which give a minimum loot of 50% decay(including ammo)
profession level 110 which give a minimum loot of 55% decay(including ammo)
profession level 120 which give a minimum loot of 60% decay(including ammo)
profession level 130 which give a minimum loot of 65% decay(including ammo)
profession level 140 which give a minimum loot of 70% decay(including ammo)
profession level 150 which give a minimum loot of 75% decay(including ammo)
profession level 160 which give a minimum loot of 80% decay(including ammo)
profession level 170 which give a minimum loot of 82% decay(including ammo)
profession level 180 which give a minimum loot of 84% decay(including ammo)
profession level 190 which give a minimum loot of 86% decay(including ammo)
profession level 200 which give a minimum loot of 88% decay(including ammo)
Such weapons would allow players to keep on skilling against harder and harder opponents as they progress through the levels, while keeping the bankroll required to a minimum and still earning mindark the decay.
The minimum cap could either be a set amount tied to the weapon or a dynamic amount tied to the profession level of the player.
If need be weapons that have minimum loot cap switched on could be disabled for pvp use, but i think it could also be a nice incentive for highly skilled players to be able of performing pvp at further reduced costs due to looting some decay back uppon success.

In regards to mobs there should be more mobs who have a high level due to their attack strength / abilities and not just because of high hitpoints.
Players should have a choice to either grind on standard mobs like they currently do, or to set out against special mobs, who require hits in different bodyparts, or their 'pets' to be beaten first before they can be attacked again, or environmental tasks to be completed before/between attacks so that players would have to spent time and decay on skillbased tasks with the chance to fail entirely or beat the endboss and have a guaranteed win.

Such encounter and weapon choices should be avaiable planetside and in space and the minimum loot cap could also be a bonus to be toggled on on existing weapons/gun turrets if exceeding the maximum levels required for them.
This would give a true meaning and advantage to skilling up as a player and secure skill values in the universe longterm.

 

[Falagor]

I do not like this kind of balancing... so i am against it.

Skill system is kinda stupid from the beggining (skills just contributing with % to professions and then making prof req->maxed for weapons is not the smartest idea) and trying to fix it this way is not good.

Falagor

 

[Alainax]

I can see what you mean ( I think!)

I saw a post the other day about someone complaining about loot. The over all resounding response was that he was hunting above his means. He was skilled enough for the mobs he wanted to hunt, and he had all the weaponry/armour. But was told in no uncertain terms that in order to hunt at his level, he would need to increase his outlay ten fold.

This obviously causes frustration when a player can cycle many thousands of per month and wishes to hunt " at their level", but that means contending with the large potential losses.

For many players, and in many games - getting to the next level is the goal. However if that then means you have to take one step forwards and two steps back, it could certainly cause many to lose interest. We all remember the times we were so excited about being finally able to hunt an Atrox! having the skills and gear to do it, but as you go up the levels, its a bit of a dampner being told " nope sorry, if you've only got a few thousand to spend, you better forget all about your nice fancy new gear and skill, they don't mean jack anymore!"

Just my tuppence from basic observation and not any form at all what so ever of knowledge in this subject

 

[SpikeBlack]

The first paragraph is where I found myself a few years ago and it's at that point I quit depositing and switched to low level mobs way below my actual level otherwise I would have spent a huge amount by now and my enjoyment of EU wouldn't have gone up.

Personally I think EUs problems run far deeper and can't be fixed by adding another type of weapon no matter what additional benefits it has attached.

EU needs some seriously brave decisions to fix its underlying issues but patching weapons to allow people to grind for longer won't fix them. Some of the changes over the past few years need throwing out completely, no more huge HP mobs with low regen for instance, as they're the cause of the issues people are having with the loot system.

It may even require a skill cap as they've kept adding bigger mobs and weapons to match the skill levels of players which have no limit and keep rising.

 

[Sub-Zero]

They kinda already did this in a way. Loot is more avg now compared to years ago. No longer is it possible to get 8k ped argo hof for example. The hof cap was added in turn gave players higher avg loot.
Certain mobs doesn't have this cap the "condition slider" (like crafting) is always set to max on them. So you lose big but have chance to win big.

So what you're asking is basically a "condition slider" as an option based on skill lvl.

I'm not sure what to think of this. But MA will probably never do it. A move like this is too risky for them. Haven't you noticed how careful they are when doing anything loot balancing related?

Sure this may have worked 10 years ago but not now.

What they could do is freaking remove novas/blazar no loot msg from lootpool. And make novas/blazar craftable like explosive projectile with TT shit.

They can put a minimum loot based of mob HP so its impossible to get a no looter unless say puny mobs. At least X% Hp of mob would return in loot.

 

[aia]

Hunting - balancing level progression

In a way there is a factor like that, but it's related to gear, not skills. For instance, someone who hunts with modfap has a lower cost than someone who hunts with say SK-90(L). Someone who has shadow armor spends less PEDs (and time) fapping than someone who has Rascal. Someone who has a fast weapon has less cost of defense/mob than someone who has a slower weapon. With a faster weapon also comes grinding through missions faster (getting skills that way) as well as getting more skills by grinding through more mobs/hour. At least as I have hunted, it feels like the extra ammo spent because of regen isn't "paid back".

When it comes to weapon speeds, the weapon rebalance made a split betwee those who had a fast weapon Before the change, and those who didn't.

Usually, the HP and level of gear comes hand in hand; with exceptions such as someone has sold out either gear or skills.

 

[John B Knight]

Looking at some of the replies i guess i wasnt clear enough, my suggestion is aimed to allow players with a smaller amount of peds on their card to cycle it more often and repeatedly till they can afford to deposit again, instead of making them loose it all at once and maybe loose those players forever to another game which they can afford to play.
We all know that higher level mobs require mostly more peds to keep shooting to get close to those 90% tt return.
I myself have spent many many hours of continuous hunting in space with a TT return over the entire hunt of roughly 10% while being maxed on the gun turrets.
I hunt up there every day so i know it can be spiky and i made that back the following day in globals however i know many players out there just get frustrated from a streak of really bad loots and stop hunting for awhile or entirely when it happen to often.
Looking in entropialife on the scored globals in space hunting, i can see Titans of Space Starfleet (my team) doing the major amount of all space globals since long - this is not just because of lootable pvp risks this is also because of really spiky hunting returns that make many people stop hunting after awhile and its just the same planetside when reaching a certain level and outgrowing the own budget.

It can not be in Mindarks interest to make players stop playing their game and play something else till they can afford to play again, because at some point those players just dont come back - the goal needs to be to allow players prelonged gaming and to give them the choice at hand on how to achieve this while still earning what they can afford to spent - my suggestion would allow just that.
It doesnt allow anyone to earn more then what they spent, it merely gives them more security to the bottomline.

 

[minim]

Threads like this is what ruined the hunting profession in the beginning I really hope MA don't listen to more of these not thought trough wishes. It's enough with the shrapnel nerf and the higher average nerf....

 

[Scurvy Sityl]

I feel like the only thing MA would get out of this thread is that players are asking for lower caps on possible HoFs/globals. I know that's not what OP intends. I just think it's how MA will read it.

 

[John B Knight]

Having written this in Loot 1.0 times and looking back of how mcuh has come true, i just meant to say:

Thank you for Loot 2.0, Efficiency, Looter professions and DPP lvl progression

Hope remains that these changes will be finally fully incorporated in space weaponry as well , giving us more choice in weapons to shoot and more impact of the gunner profession in how efficient/dpp turrets can be shot.

 

[warmdogg]

Loot 2.0 has been a stroke of genius in that respect, although loot volatility could still be turned down a notch (or 2 in some scenarios)

it’s my belief that efficiency decides what cut of your cost per shot goes direct to mindarks bank, and loot volatility is what distributes the remaining input cost amongst the player base. Meaning MA have predictable income based on total cycle ingame. My hope is that as the player base grows they may be able to lower volatility and top up the bonus pool with some of the funds gained from increased cycle.

 

[Deemer]

50 strong boxes + 2.5 TT pistol is a normal daily hunt for a new player who expects a profit when he starts playing RCE.

But $50 a day * 60 days = $3000 if we follow the financial path that MA has drawn. How many people would deposit $3k to hunt puny.

I like the idea because I'm on the hunting ground all day, but more often I take a rare items than to see another hunter. (Those who jump from one place to another do not count as hunters)

 

[Xavier_Jr]

I agree that the hunter's level is how big or small its wallet and intelligence are. For example, formally in a little while I could be an Uber. But I keep hunting a lot of small mobs. I feel that I'm doing well and I'm still growing.
However all I would asking is that ATHs and Uberloots SHARED be eliminated (or at least considerably diminished), and the 8k argos, the 20k fefoids and atrox, and the true ATHs return. That was really a great incentive to keep playing. Shared loot sucks.

 

[~ Cirrus ~]

Based on the premise that successchance to loot big is next to other factors partially based on a actual dps ranking aquired by players over time.

Sorry, my bad english..

What does this sentence means ?

 

[~ Cirrus ~]

Did I ask something that I shouldn't have ?

I didn't mean to make you stop this conversation.

Can nobody explain this sentence to me ?
Not even the person who wrote it ?

 

[John B Knight]

Did I ask something that I shouldn't have ?

I didn't mean to make you stop this conversation.

Can nobody explain this sentence to me ?
Not even the person who wrote it ?

Remember this was loot 1.0 times, return globals/hofs were back then less connected to the player and alot more to mob and location as well as the way a player was hunting. Planetside players were able to hunt at much higher turnover then space hunters, so it was very easily oberveable that the 'ranking' they achieved planetside carried over to space and we could observe what happened when a mix of space hunters and planetside hunters were hunting in space with 'normalized gear' (turrets) alongside each other at the same location.
Back then it was easily possibly for a planetside hunter to come in and take out the space loot that space hunters had 'paid for' pretty much the same was true planetside as well but much less recognizeable due to all the different gear and hunting situations in place as well as difference in locations of hunters.
Quite a few hunters have after the change to loot 2.0 publicly admited with which setups they achieved TT profit at loot 1.0 times.

I used the term dps ranking to simplify a rating/ranking system that was far more complex hence me using the word 'premise' in the same sentence.
Nevertheless the related suport case was forwarded to management as im sure feedback of other players was and we received as i believe loot 2.0 as an answer to the issues pointed out and the suggestions provided.

The fundamentals are still the same in loot 2.0 but the player is now much more important and the TT return is much more restricted to allow a continuous gaming experience that is less spiky and allows to progress to the biggest mobs using strong pedcycling weaponry even on a smaller budget/bankroll - where in the past your bankroll had to continuously grow as you grew till players reached the progress level they could afford.
Now there is no limit to progress anymore.

 

[~ Cirrus ~]

Remember this was loot 1.0 times, return globals/hofs were back then less connected to the player and alot more to mob and location as well as the way a player was hunting.

This is exactly what I liked about 1.0, and why I don't like 2.0
Thanks for reminding me.


Okay, I didn't understand why you were talking about "DPS ranking".
If I understood correctly it's more about "total damage done" on a given mob, or number of kills. (?)

I miss the 1.0 terribly...
We actually played against other players back then.
Choosing the right mob at the right time was the main thing.
Now we play against MA primarily, and it's a losing proposition.
At least that's my feeling.


But I guess this is not the subject of your thread, and I don't want to divert it.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

 

[John B Knight]

We actually played against other players back then.
Choosing the right mob at the right time was the main thing.
Now we play against MA primarily, and it's a losing proposition.

We still play against other players - our returns are just limited by our losses. (mu allows us to profit)
Its still important to pick the right mob at the right time.
But now you bring additional paramenter to the table that do limit your top but also your bottom result.
I see many old players returning to the game, more activity and increasing by more hunters, i see a growing number of players talking more and more positively about the game.

 

[MrFatBoy]

overly complex ideas for MA.

imo - just need MU at lower levels which does not really exist at all. In 2.0 MA stopped the gravy train of TT profit on 3+DPS weps but to compensate they moved MU further up the mob ladder and created more and more events to give the same group the same advantage under different rules.

i would grind under level 20 mobs all day but cant because there is never any MU to overcome the loses even if i somehow hit the magical 90% returns.

Cant have a small group having the only shot to break even / profit while 98% lose and lose way too fast. this is why this game has such a massively bad reputation and people just gtfo of here as soon as they realize they have no shot at all. or maybe just a 2% chance at getting lucky.

i dont have a real solution because if i had one that would work and make this game grow a few 1000% i would ask MA to pay me for it.

But i do know the OP is asking for MA to do advanced calculus when they cannot add yet.

otherwise its a pretty neat and inventive idea just not gonna work here.

waits for release note where MA says they fix an issue no one ever heard of or cared about but nerfed 12 other things in the process