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Question: If the game aint gamble

It's not really possible to say much about the % aside what is being said by MA already and even they cant really tell you.
Gambling in gaming is a complex term. I dont wanna get too much into what is what but I will say this.

Have you played many RPG, shooters or games that have random drops ? What are the % of the drops ? They dont have to tell you because it's not gambling.

Have you played a moba ? The dmg of your hero is random. It's not "set" dmg. After all 2 players doing 1000 swing will not have the same total dmg in a mobo even if using the same hero, same items and same level. It's not gambling either.

As for your % question. It's a really complex questions.

What is % return...

I just kill 1 mob a day. I can say the set return is safely 50% in general
I make 1 drop a day in mining. I can safely say that my return is 0% or 60% in general.

I hunt for 10000 mobs at 10 peds each. Maybe I had 98.5% return but based on 1000 mobs, 97.5% on the next 1000 mobs but it was based on the 98.5 return so if you look over 2000 mobs.. Your return is 97.5% of 98.5% which is lower than 97.5%.

So even in trying to help you figure it out. You must understand that even the question you ask is a bit of something that is hard to conclude. If the set return was 98% then it would mean you cant profit ever on TT. Yet, I can tell you Im ahead TT wise on what I did even if I had many uncool loss. I play small time stuff and dont see this game as a money making because well.. McDonald would pay more for my time... Especially these days where jobs are everywhere.

So the best thing I can refer you to and even that wont be the best conclusion you want to this thread(Sorry but it's all we got...)

www.entropiauniverse.com

Entropia Universe - Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

One of MindArk’s primary long-term goals is to make Entropia Universe as affordable and entertaining as possible for all participants. Toward that end
www.entropiauniverse.com
Click to expand...
Early data show positive results from those experiments:

  • Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.
  • Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.
  • Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.
Click to expand...

On average mean that there is a few lucky one who ended with 120-150-200% maybe... Which also mean that on average there is many who ended in the shoes of what we call "The sucker" at 50-60-70% and sadly got owned by the pool that was eaten by the few lucky.

It's just like those players in a WoW raids. Usually there not many that get their worth in time. Is WoW gambling ? Is diablo II gambling because in 6 months your friend found 2 zod runes doing same as you but you found 0 ? I am one in my belief to say "If it feel like gambling, then it is gambling". Yet, in that sense anything involving RNG is gambling. This is also why most EU clone projects fail. Because they look too much like gambling while having servers in the wrong area of the world.


What is gambling ? That could be the longest topic on the internet.
 
Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

One of MindArk’s primary long-term goals is to make Entropia Universe as affordable and entertaining as possible for all participants.


This one made me laugh.. :ROFLMAO:
All I know is that since creation of my actual acount, I loose average 200$/month.. (is it cheap ?)
And I got some rly nice swirls sometimes, still I just keep loosing at the end.

As for "fun"... Seriously guys, Entropia is NOT fun AT ALL.. :sleep:
I mean put aside the fun you have whith your friends, and Entropia itself is just ZERO fun.

Let's be realistic, you can have lot more fun in some 5$ or even free games out there that you'll never get in EU..

So dear Mindark, if you really wanted to make it "as affordable and entertaining as possible", sorry to say, you just failed.


Is EU gambling ?
Of course NO.
Whith gambling you have a chance to win.

EU is worse than gambling, because it let you think it is, but it's not.
It looks like gambling, it taste like gambling, but it's just dull click after click..
Useless for all, apart for the happy few who can deposit 100k$.

Yes, I'm in a bad mood, but this is just truth. :cautious:
 
Katie Chalmers said:
Glad I could help contribute to another thread likely to go nowhere.
Click to expand...

I agree, so many useless threads..
But the forum simply reflects what the game is.
It's not surprising that so many threads go nowhere, when for most players, the game itself goes nowhere.. 🧐
 
below is some ancient history...

DO NOT SEND complaint in to Swedish Gambling Authority. If you do they may well send more information about you including full copy of your email with header info to Mccormick as they've done in the past on at least one or two occassions... Apparently everything reported to them including email addresses are considered public info available to anyone that inquires, so uh...

They did rule that basically they don't want to put the resources in to investigate at least twice. Below is a copy of one of those responses from a while back... (links below are just for historic purpose and to give further explanation of what the heck this post is all about. If mods want to delete the urls go ahead, but it really is a disservice to the community to erase history...

www.entropiaplanets.com

konsumentverket.se - File a complaint against MindArk

Hi, let this be the final straw in spreading the truth about the swedish company MindArk PE AB. This just isnt a desperate try to act as an attention...
www.entropiaplanets.com www.entropiaplanets.com

The content of this letter is not to be considered a legally binding document. The Swedish Gambling Authority has investigated the “Loot” system in Entropia Universe in journal number 13Li3786. The investigation was closed on the 30 of October 2013.

The Swedish gambling market is regulated by The Swedish lottery act (1994:1000). The general rule is that lotteries must not be arranged except by permit (Section 9, Lotteries Act). Permits may in principle only be granted to non-profit making associations whose activities are for the public benefit (Section 15, Lotteries Act), it is thus not sufficient for a permit to be granted that the proceeds of the lottery are applied for charitable purposes.

There are two possibilities for The Swedish Gambling Authority to act in cases of suspicion of crime, one is to submit to the suspect with a penalty (Vite) the second one is to notify the police. To submit the suspect with penalty it is required to that the offense has been committed within Swedish jurisdiction, this means a server is located in Sweden or the person or company that offers the lottery lives in Sweden.
It also requires an exact moment when the crime has been committed. It is, therefore, necessary to secure documentation of a Swedish player who lives in Sweden when he or her wins “Loots” in order to prove that the location of the criminal act is within the Swedish jurisdiction and that the legal person responsible for lottery is Swedish. The Swedish Gambling Authority would likely need to dedicate an employee on full-time to play in Entropia Universe before the possibility of gaining loots in Entropia Universe. It has to been proved that the actual legal person which is responsible for lottery is Swedish, in this case, MindArk and that it is not arranged by a foreign subsidiary to MindArk. This would require a thorough investigation concerning MindArks corporate structures.

Anyone may make a police report at suspicion of a criminal offense. It is likely to assume that the circumstance needs to be proven up to the level which is mentioned above in order for the Swedish court to decide on a punishment on a suspected crime. The Swedish Gambling Authority has come to the conclusion that current circumstances isn´t sufficient evidence to make a police report, if you wish to make a police report, please notice attached contact details below

Circumstances of the case Entropia Universe has been put forward for head of department in the case of how the matter should be handled. Head of operational department which is responsible for the prioritization and allocation of resources, has decided that The Swedish Gambling Authority currently does not have the opportunity to further investigate the matter with reference to the extensive resource case would take.

Polismyndigheten i Västra Götaland
Box 429
401 26 Göteborg
Sweden

Kind Regards
Josefin Jansson

LOTTERIINSPEKTIONEN
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Info: - Gambling

https://legal.entropiauniverse.com/legal/eula.xml Gambling activities are expressly forbidden in the Entropia Universe. https://cyreneforum.com/threads/cyrene-booth-event-rare-loot-raffle.8450/ - Raffle https://www.virtualsense.eu/forum/threads/firefists-customer-reward-program.8894/post-56281...
www.planetcalypsoforum.com www.planetcalypsoforum.com
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96.5%
 
Do you idiots know what gambling is?!!!!!
 
One thing to remember is that when they talk about return its about average and the collectively return and not per individual.
So the big mass will be lower than what they say and those who are very effective and have best balanced set up will have
a better return, and ofc it has zero to do who they are only about values they create.
 
DonJunior said:
The People Make Games review with 1.5 million views,


There is an interview with a Mindark employee about whether the game is gambling. (forward to 15 mins on the video)
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Yeah that interview was painful.

Really solid opportunity to explain to the world the brilliant nuance of the Entropia RTP & Markup economy and how it breaks the "it's gambling because I can't play properly" argument - unfortunately they dropped the ball and started making piss poor arguments about how riding a bike is gambling and therefore Entropia is and isnt simultaneously gambling... Painful levels of cringe that really harmed Entropias image imo.

The basic principle behind Entropia is that playing properly is 50% deep study and the tools you play with make up the other 50%. When you are just starting out you will have neither so will get 'brutalised' until you figure out how the game really works (Zhos recent thread clarifys it better than any previous attempt so far - essential reading if you haven't yet figured out the core mechanics of the game.)
Once you gain that understanding you then model your play to gain various edges to minimise your losses on your journey to the promised land of profitable play. Unless you are a 200iq galaxy brain or have the paitence of a saint you will need to invest significant time and money to get to that place. Invest in Weapons, Skills, Blueprints etc all to increase your edge or your in game business ventures.

When you factor in the sheer scale of the top players cycle amounts you realise that Entropia is a very long and very expensive 'game' and your year 1 experience will likely be a poor example of how the game is meant to be played and most likely will be back to back months of losses. However it really can be a profitable hobby if you treat it as a business and really do the work to break out of the "it's gambling because I can't win" group - but that requires more study and investment than most people expect. However once you break out everything falls into place and you start to see meaningful and consistent profit, I can say that for absolute certain...

It helps to understand the context of the levels to Entropia, some of the top players Ive got to know cycle high 6 figures per year, I've no doubt there are a few of the elite that cycle 7 figures. They all play profitably, some with shops and businesses in EU some without. All of them have invested huge amounts of time and money to get to that point. If you are comparing a few hundred dollar investment and a few months to a year+ of play and wondering why you can't seem to win easily - you have to realize the game (rightly so) primarily caters for the high rollers that keep the lights on. Once you understand that it's easier to see whether you really want to try and join the elite, profitable levels of play or if like the majority you can just learn to enjoy Entropia as the extremely complex and rich Sci-fi mmorpg 'game' that "kinda feels like a casino" where people do get lucky and take home 5 figures in single loot instances. But if you follow the latter group you have to respect you are playing an entirely different game to those that aren't gambling and your play at that level could very easily be construed as gambling and for most it is just gambling with extra steps.

The fact that Entropia can be played "like" gambling doesn't mean it explicitly is. It has avoided that categorisation 'For 18 years' because of Markup and because there truly is an element of "skill" in how you approach the game. The actual gameplay isn't skill but the planning before the "press F" absolutely is and so like poker falls into a grey area of Skill/Chance yet the Chance isn't really Chance either so falls further into the Grey area of "has gambling features but is not actually gambling in a legal sense".


TL;Dr - no Entropia isn't Gambling and MA likely will never give you true returns even though they are 100% tracked because that ruins the fun for everyone.

The lowest base return to player seems to be fixed above 90% at a minimum and always has been (actual study done over a decade ago confirming RTP range starts above 90%). Seems to max out around 98% in all professions over large data sets. Possibly goes higher but never seen any evidence of that since loot 2.0. Personally I find my tracked data matches up pretty well with the table Zho made for hunting returns. Mining and Crafting seem to consistently return around 93-98% for me month to month.
 
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the funny thing is for that entropia video the guy who was interviewed as a "one very high level player" and he did an interview with "Vastly One" idk if you guys even looked into him.. (im not saying hes wrong or bad but hes the same level as someone who has played the game for maybe a week) so this video got alot of information all fucked up because they listened to noobs and people on forums.

these people that were in that video were all less then $1k usd depoers who dont know anything about what this game can actually provide, with the right time and money invested.
 
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If you're prepared to skill to uber levels (lets say that's at least pro level 150 theses days), buy a complete set of top end gear. Including rings amps etc... then you should have enough efficency and skill to earn the markup.

The issue is do you have the time ? Are you prepared to throw huge sums of money at it, and can you handle the financial stress over years to get there? Some people go for, it's an insane journey.

I'm too tired to care, nor can I sit at a screen for 12 hours a day anymore shooting. I still don't believe it's gambling, but it can feel like it.

Percentage return is pointless to me. 98% return of 10 million input ped = 200k cost. I don't even want to pay that. But who knows, could get it back in markup.
 
RickEngland said:
If you're prepared to skill to uber levels (lets say that's at least pro level 150 theses days), buy a complete set of top end gear. Including rings amps etc... then you should have enough efficency and skill to earn the markup.

The issue is do you have the time ? Are you prepared to throw huge sums of money at it, and can you handle the financial stress over years to get there? Some people go for, it's an insane journey.

I'm too tired to care, nor can I sit at a screen for 12 hours a day anymore shooting. I still don't believe it's gambling, but it can feel like it.

Percentage return is pointless to me. 98% return of 10 million input ped = 200k cost. I don't even want to pay that. But who knows, could get it back in markup.
Click to expand...
You become uber in pvp. Outside pvp, you are just NPC with expensive gear botting around xD

Game is not gambling overall, but shrapnel, projectiles big mobs, big amps, is gambling and it should be regulated by government laws.
 
If you have an idea on what several mobs drop, while checking demand for such items... Is it gambling to know approx how much you will lose every hour, and knowing how much of each MU item you can expect every hour then turning a profit or breaking even? No.

Is it gambling to get milked on random mobs with no notable loot, then think "ok im going to go chuck my last 200 ped on big mobs for big drop", yes, but that is a choice you made on the platform.

Even if you arent turning a profit, that markup leads to hundreds and hundreds of USD you wouldn't have had if you were out just killing for the sake of TT.
 
I wont claim that i make profit in game because i dont track returns , but if you ask me from a logical perspective everything is a gamble the moment you wake up from bed to the moment you play this game, now if you ask me how to make the game less of a gamble it all depends if you are hunting mining or crafting for the right things/mobs to decrease losses and make up with MU if you are just playing for tt well thats up to you to decide if its a gamble
 
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onlygodplays said:
so this video got alot of information all fucked up because they listened to noobs and people on forums.
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To be fair, most ubers make 0 peds and keep complaining about the return.
Meanwhile, I know someone who is a sweater that used his only sweat + gauntlet grinding as long as he could to get CLDs and hit a hof over 3k

Let's face it.. Most people who can spend a lot usually make more money paying other people to manage their assets. Thats a IRL fact which doesnt change here in EU.

AckerZ said:
unfortunately they dropped the ball and started making piss poor arguments about how riding a bike is gambling and therefore Entropia is and isnt simultaneously gambling...
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It's hard to say "gambling is not in EU, EU is like life, life is a gamble and we dont reveal our magic sauce mechanic" in a few sentences. Still, he pretty much did it in the video.


Joat said:
its about average and the collectively return and not per individual
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That should be a sticky in all forums. Hell.. It should be a checkbox to click before each post. Would probably allow MA to redirect the wasted forum space spending to EU loot pool!
The should tattoo it on most ubers.
 
I think we need to understand the matter from "The house" point of view.
i will refer to an european roulette. single number bet pay 36x in case of event
theere are 36 numbers so"The house" is in danger. then we got the ZERO.
this small change make the house win 1/36th of the time so have a STATISTICAL PROFIT of 2.77%
if the house win 2,.77% that means that "player" return 97.3% of his bet as a whole
(funny that my statistical average is 97.4 huh ?)

in the reports Ma provided the ONLY official data that point to 98% return, so there is a tax on 2% to game

forget all the DECEPTION AND FUNNY BELLS AND WHISTLES..... Hof, Swirlies, ped printers and such bullshit
math wise game is a 98% returning random engine. the rest is the fun to see higher and lower return periods

there is no personal loot but there are some "compensation mechanics" if you loose too much too fast.

The loss in amping mining are 99% due to the "this resource was not deliverable in that quantity because there is a limit so you fail this bomb"
unamping mining return 95% to me over about 5000 bombs sent with F105 so it is perfectly statistically acceptable with my low 14 skill level

Crafting return to me EXACTLY what is reported in success chance in the machine (meaning success = success and partial success) and my return are in the 96% aswell full quantity

There is no randomness in Entropia, that is a Deception to show you that you can get rich with a "Global pool hof",,,,, this is like a lottery win otherwise you will get back 97.4% average

the game is in fact..... INVENT A CREATIVE WAY TO COLLECT THE MISSIN 2.5%.... remembering that you cant beat the game, but can beat the gamers (transfer TT losses collecting markup)

some item have small markup (3 pec each vixen Gear) but cost a small amount to collect them
some have a DIFFICULT PATH to be produced (mu on crafted items and some crafters sell them at a loss because they dont even know how much cost an item to them... lucky buyers )
some have a difficult and time consuming and costly path (arc badges armor, incision plates refined, gorgon armor, Mayhem pulled items) and the "Stacking premium" is larger or HUGE but is TT Loss transfer.

someone has in a point of the economy to LOOSE the MU and never collect it back (Transforming it into SKILL POINTS that are not accounted but are the place where all sinked ped finish, and BP quality rating that is the second place where lost TT is stored and Tier up of weapons where huntloot is sinked.

if you accurately account it and are not over unit, that means that you gambles, or... too few events of larger amount that altered your expected return function (amped, indoor mining, killing big vanguards, shared loot bosses, bad hp/ratio boss, killing monster that "bear no markup" and such.
i count a hunt event count of about 10k loots to be "averaged" so... killing 10k sand kings is unrealistic, that is a gambling monster, like killing a "purger" or an "old fred".
if you kill exarosaurs L6 and daikiba l7...14 near troy for one week the return is 99% predictable in quantity of oils and in quantity of TT.
on 25k vixen shy i killed in rocktropia i averaged 26.7% of gears compared to kills ( 6675 items) .. that is not randomness... who feels the randomness.... if anyone want to test... i used a barbarella and a101 with 52 looter. if you get same numbers it is not random...
it is PSEUDO RANDOM... just like Diablo3 examples above.
 
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All MMOs are glorified slot machines - you pull a lever and get a result, having %chance of looting this or that. You can improve your results by improving %chance or amount of pulls you can make in x amount of time by improving your gear, which allows more pulls (shots, kills etc).

Better MMOs allow you to gather specific items to get guaranteed items, instead hoping for 0.0002% chance to get something. Then again, collecting these items always have %chance tied to them, so it's a slot machine on smaller scale with guaranteed result at end.

Too much randomness or unknown %chance get players pissed off and these MMOs are not very popular for long time. It sucks doing same thing for weeks without having any result, while the other guy gets the result in days or hours.
 
ProActive Mango said:
What are the set returns in each field of gameplay?

Hunting %?
Crafting %?
Mining %?
Is there a fixed % return in all fields?

Please give info Mindark if the game aint gamble, then we have the right to know the return rate.
Click to expand...

You can actually find this out yourself, by downloading a loot tracker and start tracking your returns. Check out LootNanny.
 
halftoasted said:
To be fair, most ubers make 0 peds and keep complaining about the return.
Meanwhile, I know someone who is a sweater that used his only sweat + gauntlet grinding as long as he could to get CLDs and hit a hof over 3k

Let's face it.. Most people who can spend a lot usually make more money paying other people to manage their assets. Thats a IRL fact which doesnt change here in EU.


It's hard to say "gambling is not in EU, EU is like life, life is a gamble and we dont reveal our magic sauce mechanic" in a few sentences. Still, he pretty much did it in the video.



That should be a sticky in all forums. Hell.. It should be a checkbox to click before each post. Would probably allow MA to redirect the wasted forum space spending to EU loot pool!
The should tattoo it on most ubers.
Click to expand...

I actually currently dont know any actual ubers who are smart and play the game as intended crying about TT returns or playing at making 0 peds a month. i think you dont know ubers or you know people who wanna be ubers but dont have the money or skills. i know more people with level 75+looter and 80%+eff weapons running around with 98%+ tt returns. then people who have those weapons and are under 96% avg tt returns.

so something is off here. i use loot 1.0 weapon and get 96% tt i can play all day and night and break even long term. so i know people cycling more then i do and get higher tt returns are making at least 1-3% profit overall
 
From all the logs we seen on the forum. Something is off for sure about that so called profit from all ubers. For sure a discussion that I had many times as a noob who would run around learning and later with many ubers is the concept of the deposit gambler. Lose 1200p, depo $200, lose 200p more, get a 300p hof and call it profit. The logs we see on the forum from reputable ubers clearly show that the more you spend, the more you become the odds.
 
halftoasted said:
From all the logs we seen on the forum. Something is off for sure about that so called profit from all ubers. For sure a discussion that I had many times as a noob who would run around learning and later with many ubers is the concept of the deposit gambler. Lose 1200p, depo $200, lose 200p more, get a 300p hof and call it profit. The logs we see on the forum from reputable ubers clearly show that the more you spend, the more you become the odds.
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im not talking about logs on forums im talking about logs i see from friends. and they all say the same thing. and haven't depoed in years or only do when its for seasonal boxes to get a good ring like summer 2020 or xmas 2020

at a high enough level and eff% and dpp you can legit start breaking even just off shrapnel converse rate.
 
The game has just enough skill based activities to avoid being marked as gamblimg by authorities. Like trading, shares / LA management (investing) and a bit of services (hairstyling, transportation...).

But bottom line is that hunting, mining and crafting in particular are slot machines in essence. And 90+% of revenue to company is from gambling activities...

As for exact % back... youll never get that declared because as said - this is, technically, not a gambling game.

I.
 
onlygodplays said:
at a high enough level and eff% and dpp you can legit start breaking even just off shrapnel converse rate.
Click to expand...

If there was a way to prove or disprove this, I would bet you the house that in the EU economy entirety this is just not true.

You may get markuped chips playing the wheel and sell to other players, but the house always profits.

I.
 
onlygodplays said:
im not talking about logs on forums im talking about logs i see from friends.
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3% for ubers who spend on average 0.25-0.30p seconds which is 900-1,080p TT + MU per hour. Should they profit only 3% after selling. This net 32.40p profit per hour which equal 211.61 rubbles. Why do I say this ? If this was so easy you would have Russians all over as full time job.

The Russian minimum wage has 13,890 Russian rubles, or approximately 1770p PER MONTH!!!!

1770p / 32.40p = 54.6 hours of EU gaming for 1 month salary ? Why isnt half of russia in EU ?! Its 3 times better than minimum wage in russian!
So those logs are doubtful.

ok.. They make about 50% more in moscow and st Peterburg. This is still only 80ish hours or 2 week for a month of salary while gaming.

So how come the Russians arnt ALL here being ubers ?! How come CLD have value ? If those few 3000p can be used to gear yourself to 3 USD+ PER hour. Why pay 3k+ a few times for a few 3.5p a week ? Sorry, but those profit make no sense and even if you seen profit logs, I doubt they show you the sad ones because if this was true the CLD value would go down the drain as it wouldnt be worth it.
 
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