Is 'botting' responsible for the rapid item price increase

[Deemer]

I think the impact of botting on prices, while perhaps not negligible, constitutes a modest piece of a much larger puzzle.

Supply seems to be a much more important factor than demand in this context, because MindArk has direct control over it. It is nearly costless for MindArk to gradually increase the rate at which copies of an item are introduced into the game until all unwanted price premium gets eased away. I think treating supply as fixed and trying to tease out the impact of different demand factors, while interesting, is not the most useful angle for analyzing this inflation.

Aren't you a little disappointed that the bot surpasses what you've achieved effortlessly?
How can you compete against an artificial intelligence who is tireless?
If AI calculates the forecasts for a purchased item for X time, then this will be at least two times for you over a long period...

Irrational belittling of the power of AI, to talk about puzzles or big pictures.

I have a strong dislike for MA, especially when I see this recurring above picture every day, but they reserve the right to use it against me if I do... it's utter hypocrisy against anyone who has spent any money here!

 

[Theocles]

This is the response I receive every time I report someone for afk hunting in a public spawn, so take it as you will. Its the same as it is with most things in Entropia, MA may claim its not allowed but they do not actually enforce their own policies. Hopefully that changes with the new engine in 2040 when it releases.

2022-03-05 19:03 Entropia Universe Support:

Hi Theocles,

Thank you for your report.

Using macros and other software to automate ones gameplay is not allowed and for players who use these there are consequences.

 

[DonJunior]

This is the response I receive every time I report someone for afk hunting in a public spawn, so take it as you will. Its the same as it is with most things in Entropia, MA may claim its not allowed but they do not actually enforce their own policies. Hopefully that changes with the new engine in 2040 when it releases.

2022-03-05 19:03 Entropia Universe Support:

Hi Theocles,

Thank you for your report.

Using macros and other software to automate ones gameplay is not allowed and for players who use these there are consequences.

I had assumed they were permitted, such is their prevalent usage according to many players.

The issue must be Mindark's willingness to enforce their rules and the manpower to do so.

 

[halftoasted]

Money is simple but not something that our system teach.

Value of money is based on assets.
You get more assets and money value go up.
You print money without more assets and the money value goes down.

Money for dummy
Money is like a pie:
Each time you print more money it's like you divide the same pie in smaller pieces. It's still a lemon pie with same value. But each slice are worth less.
(That's what we call inflation as you need more pie slice to trade for the same jug of milk. This is also called hidden taxation as your 20$ bill stay a 20$ but is worth less than yesterday)
Each time you add ingredients or create more pies the slices stay same size but they gain in value and that mean you can buy more jugs of milk with less slices.
(That's what we call economical growth)

What do you guys think happened during covid ?

The rest is trivial as those been factors that exist since the start of EU.

/thread

 

[psyche]

I used to play this game called Knight Online, it was back in early 2000s. It was fun in the beginning. I think after 1 year of playing, the bots took over the game. Literally there was no place to farm anything. There will just be a random archer botting at every mob location. It honestly ruined the game. That game was not playable at all. I literally cannot kill anything because botting got that bad. I'm not exaggerating either. Even the beginner mob, which was a worm was camped by bots. You can't kill any worms to lvl up. It was a very popular MMO during that time. Anyone who played that game can probably confirm how botting ruins a MMO.

I think Exa spawn is also heavily camped now and there's often KSing going on there. When I was farming exas, I often see people arguing about kill stealing. There wasn't too many botting going on at exas, but I can imagine if this game was filled with bots like Knights online was, then this game would also not be playable. I understand the MA's inaction has lead many to believe botting was ok, but really just imagine if everyone in this game used bots and running the bots 24/7. Do we really want botting to be allowed in this game?

I just don't want another of my beloved MMO to get ruined. But on the other hand, I'm wondering how they can identify a bot. I often hunt or mine while watching a youtube video or netflix show. I can imagine that people might think i'm a bot. How do you differentiate a bot from a multi tasking human player?

I guess at the end of it, it's up to MA to make this game more engaging. I often suggested to make this game more engaging. Just add simple kiting or some sort of dodge mechanic. Or something similar to stun backstab, etc. I think it's the repetitiveness that cause many to turn to botting. As others have pointed out, a simple logitech keyboard can just press the f key automatically. If there's some sort of combat mechanic built in then it will at minimum discourage the simple macro and logitech keyboard ppl from botting. It will also make it harder for the bot makers to make a bot to kite, stun, backstab, etc. If they don't kite then they will be hunting less eco. So it becomes that you can bot, but you will be losing money if you do. Only human players can play and get the best return possible.

 

[DonJunior]

I just don't want another of my beloved MMO to get ruined. But on the other hand, I'm wondering how they can identify a bot. I often hunt or mine while watching a youtube video or netflix show. I can imagine that people might think i'm a bot. How do you differentiate a bot from a multi tasking human player?

With difficulty.

The easier option would be to change hunting so it's not so simple to set up a macro and disappear away from the computer for hours at a time (as you pointed out below).

I guess at the end of it, it's up to MA to make this game more engaging. I often suggested to make this game more engaging. Just add simple kiting or some sort of dodge mechanic. Or something similar to stun backstab, etc. I think it's the repetitiveness that cause many to turn to botting. As others have pointed out, a simple logitech keyboard can just press the f key automatically. If there's some sort of combat mechanic built in then it will at minimum discourage the simple macro and logitech keyboard ppl from botting. It will also make it harder for the bot makers to make a bot to kite, stun, backstab, etc. If they don't kite then they will be hunting less eco. So it becomes that you can bot, but you will be losing money if you do. Only human players can play and get the best return possible.

 

[Xen]

This is the response I receive every time I report someone for afk hunting in a public spawn, so take it as you will. Its the same as it is with most things in Entropia, MA may claim its not allowed but they do not actually enforce their own policies. Hopefully that changes with the new engine in 2040 when it releases.

2022-03-05 19:03 Entropia Universe Support:

Hi Theocles,

Thank you for your report.

Using macros and other software to automate ones gameplay is not allowed and for players who use these there are consequences.

That's the official policy. However, they have also said it's very difficult to actually prove there isn't someone at the keyboard, but they will log off a player that is interfering with others game play.

 

[Msturlese]

The introduction of "F" to attack next and the 360 degree engagement is literally for "dont look at screen and use your ammo watching netflix and randomly press F"
if it is done by a human or by a machine i cant see any difference
killing same monster 10k times is extremely boring task and lead to (not so severe) muscle and tendon stress

again it is a minor issue, real problem is "few fresh players to purchase loot" so oversupply erodes margin and rise the cost to play

and returns cannot be risen by the company because they "Need" more cycle from existing players to feed the staff and enhancing
the return would pose risk to susteinability of business.

If you look the balance account of cost to run the company against the "ped printed" it is utterly easy to spot
every day 250.000 ped are to be lost due to "undercut" from decay just to "feed the hamsters"...

4000 EL registered hunters... double them? we need to loose on average 50 ped per day (all inclusive)
so cost to play entropia averages to 5 USD per day. If one player is smart he trasfer it to someone else (MU)....

numbers.....

 

[SoberPhil]

That's the official policy. However, they have also said it's very difficult to actually prove there isn't someone at the keyboard, but they will log off a player that is interfering with others game play.

It's actually not that difficult, there's algorithms that analyse behavioral patterns which can detect bots and macros quite easily. You don't even need that in cases where people are hunting 24/7 every day of the year. There's plenty of info on bot detection in games on the internet you can check out if you're interested, but I have a feeling that you're not.

For instance, this is a simple answer from google:

How do games detect Botting?

"Server-side detection methods are based on data mining techniques that analyze log data from game servers. Most game servers generate event logs whenever users perform actions such as hunting, harvesting, and chatting. Hence, these in-game logs facilitate data analysis as a possible method for detecting game bots."

 

[Msturlese]

the game generates loot under decay so the best bot is a spambot for traders

 

[SoberPhil]

the game generates loot under decay so the best bot is a spambot for traders

That's not entirely true either, TT profit in this game is possible. Used to be possible in mining under certain conditions, crafting cheap BPs was TT-profitable for a long time as well and I'm sure that was done by design not by mistake. Right now making TT profit like this does not seem to be possible. Maybe a few top-botters can make TT profit tho since they are on the very top of the foodchain.

 

[Msturlese]

That's not entirely true either, TT profit in this game is possible. Used to be possible in mining under certain conditions, crafting cheap BPs was TT-profitable for a long time as well and I'm sure that was done by design not by mistake. Right now making TT profit like this does not seem to be possible. Maybe a few top-botters can make TT profit tho since they are on the very top of the foodchain.

DPP "soft cap" exploiting in loot 1.0 (imk2+a204 if i understood correctly) lead to over ammo return. that was fixed in 2.0
i can just base all on my "small" experience if 2 year can be said small is a game:
average return of 97.4% and that is enough on about 3m cycled to be paying TT loss of 3.000.000 *0.026 = 78.000 PED
those 78k go into skill point pool and are PARTIALLY paid by MU

 

[Hego Damask]

It isn't my opinion. It is fact straight from MA. I don't refer to it as botting however like all of you with your pitchforks. It is called a simple macro to me, just a tool to prevent RSI. Already MA has stated that this is fine to use.

They stated macro is ok, but also added you should still be at your monitor.
During easter mayhem, when i pm'ed a player that was in "dungeon", the answer in 1 hour was considered fast.

My problem is not with Macro, my problem is with AFK macro.

 

[Msturlese]

During easter mayhem, when i pm'ed a player that was in "dungeon", the answer in 1 hour was considered fast.

i Missed the part of TOS where a player is obliged to asnwer PM in a specific timespan
(or to answer at all)

 

[halftoasted]

They stated macro is ok, but also added you should still be at your monitor.

Just to clarify so that some players do not get into problems.
Simple macro<--- Are accepted.
Complex macro are not.
I myself would not use them but I believe simple macro to an extent has a need. I know player X who has a hand injury with partial paralysis. That player spend more on a auto loot pet because even eating pills cause discomfort. I believe these players deserve to be able to enjoy the game and why such thing should always exist. Obviously I think this mean it should extend to everyone as we can get mild injury, temporary big ones or just be a bit too tired... Whatever right ?

The main issue is:

my problem is with AFK macro

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

obliged to asnwer PM in a specific timespan
(or to answer at all)

Lol, I often fail a lot while watching the screen.

 

[Hego Damask]

i Missed the part of TOS where a player is obliged to asnwer PM in a specific timespan
(or to answer at all)

Ofc they not, just friends usually answer to your pm's, when you pm them, not 1-3 hours later, when they back at the monitor

 

[TheOneOmega]

Aren't you a little disappointed that the bot surpasses what you've achieved effortlessly?

Perhaps I would be if I wasn't a crafter, but I still have a modicum of hope that my comments on descriptive economic questions such as this would be driven by something more truth-oriented than the maximization of social outrage toward the group of players I disliked.

For the record, I'm not actually super pro-bot, unless it turns out that MindArk is fundamentally unable to distinguish botting from non-botting with sufficient accuracy. I am super anti-collateral-damage when it comes to policy enforcement.

 

[halftoasted]

For the record, I'm not actually super pro-bot, unless it turns out that MindArk is fundamentally unable to distinguish botting from non-botting with sufficient accuracy. I am super anti-collateral-damage when it comes to policy enforcement.

That is the main issue and also possibly a partial self justification on some of the inactions.
How can you tell if someone use a loot pill and use a simple macro attended or not. Without getting into details which can give some extra players ideas on how to do it. Randomization of reaction time is the plague of today gaming in general.

Dont wanna get too much into telling about EU way so I will use another game. Ultima Online had bot issues but people had macro that detected GM or PM to warn them and text them on their phones... So they would go back to computer to reply. How do you deal with that kind of stuff ? Seeing the value of Ultima Online VS EU economy... Who know what extent some may go.

 

[Xen]

It's actually not that difficult, there's algorithms that analyse behavioral patterns which can detect bots and macros quite easily. You don't even need that in cases where people are hunting 24/7 every day of the year. There's plenty of info on bot detection in games on the internet you can check out if you're interested, but I have a feeling that you're not.

For instance, this is a simple answer from google:

How do games detect Botting?

"Server-side detection methods are based on data mining techniques that analyze log data from game servers. Most game servers generate event logs whenever users perform actions such as hunting, harvesting, and chatting. Hence, these in-game logs facilitate data analysis as a possible method for detecting game bots."

24/7 doesn't prove it because it could be multiple people playing the same avatar.

I am not all that interested because MA doesn't seem all that interested unless you are disturbing the gameplay of others. Plus it's not my job. Plus I think most common items are tt'd by high volume players because it's difficult to sell that much stuff.

 

[RickEngland]

Surely shooting with or without a person at the keyboard is still shooting. Is the issue an assumption that these people are profiting per hour, that's why they have an issue with it?

What if they return to the keyboard, count up and are 4k down? Haha.

 

[Sirhc]

There are now many items that allow players to hunt AFK, often referred to as 'botting'. Players with high paying jobs can now grind while holding down a job, something that I've been told was not the case 10 years ago. If so, is this a good reason why Mindark will never crack down on 'botting' as it is fueling the economy?

Well there were people using auto-clickers back in Project Entropia. A lot of highly skilled old time avatars used acid pools, trapped mobs, and other methods to boost skills. Back then items like imp and mod FAPs were highly desired and priced high as well. Now the price of those items wasn't high because they could be used to auto-click skills since they allowed people to play at a higher level and acquire greater rewards. PE -> EU has always been a grind to some extent and MA has implemented some decent tools to make gameplay more efficient. While some tools allow people to play afk the price on items isn't always revolving around that concept. People are willing to pay higher prices for their perceived value whether they afk play or not. I don't afk play EU aside from crafting but that is built into the system these days. I do have some gear that could allow me to "set it and forget it" for 8-10 hours or so but that takes the fun out of the game for me.

Auto-clickers and bots have just been a part of this game and any other MMO for that matter so you just have to not let it affect your joy. It does suck in a competitive aspect since a normal human player can't compete with a 24/7 setup but there are ways to succeed without doing so. So I don't think botting will go away and MA would be chasing their tails trying to squash it all especially if its hard to prove. The best thing they could do is pay attention to the variables in the game and change them when people employing bots really take advantage of the system, I would think there are trends visible to MA in regards to this. People play using bots because the system favors that type of play in some instances and I don't see that changing.

I've seen very similar discussions in regards to auto-clickers, resellers, and gear prices since 2004 and while some things have changed its still very much the same today. The bots seem a bit more complex than an acid pool auto-click fapper but it elicits the same response from the players and developer. So that being said the question every player should be asking themselves is there a way I can take advantage of the bots to improve my style of play in the limited amount of time I have? Not long ago during wave mining I found a happy little bot on an LA and I spent some time clearing the fields before it could activate, it was fun and lucrative at the same time.

Prices fluctuate all the time and there will be ebbs and flows throughout the year and years to come.

 

[Deleted member 58836]

This is the response I receive every time I report someone for afk hunting in a public spawn, so take it as you will. Its the same as it is with most things in Entropia, MA may claim its not allowed but they do not actually enforce their own policies. Hopefully that changes with the new engine in 2040 when it releases.

2022-03-05 19:03 Entropia Universe Support:

Hi Theocles,

Thank you for your report.

Using macros and other software to automate ones gameplay is not allowed and for players who use these there are consequences.

Definition of CONDONE

to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Theocles]

Definition of CONDONE

to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

I got same response about macros not being allowed. It would be nice if MA would start kicking the dumb f***s at phasms that sit there afk all day. Good "lord" what kind of a "good man" would do something like that. Wink wink.

 

[Art Jennifer]

This is the response I receive every time I report someone for afk hunting in a public spawn, so take it as you will. Its the same as it is with most things in Entropia, MA may claim its not allowed but they do not actually enforce their own policies. Hopefully that changes with the new engine in 2040 when it releases.

2022-03-05 19:03 Entropia Universe Support:

Hi Theocles,

Thank you for your report.

Using macros and other software to automate ones gameplay is not allowed and for players who use these there are consequences.

I've started filming and reporting them. Interest to see if MA do anything.


Hi,

Thanks for reporting and for contributing to make Entropia Universe a better and fairer place to be.

Please rest assured that we have forwarded your report for further investigation and that appropriate action will be taken.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Kind regards,
Entropia Universe Support

 

[Farmer Smurf]

There are very few bots in this game, and they get removed quickly.
There are however quite of bit of players using programmable keyboards to repeatedly hit F and the like.

Big difference though, bots destroy a game economy because they are far more interactive, they can do things like Check items for MU, and put certain things in TT machine and other things on auction, they can scan the auction and bid or post according to current market. They can move the character around to certain coordinates, even on other planets...basically they can play just like a human does, because of the advanced programming, ability to screen read, and memory read.

I watched them destroy the diablo 2 world decades ago, if left unchecked they can quickly make a game unplayable to humans.

I am glad we don't have a real bot problem, we do however live in 2022 when 90% of gaming keyboards and mice, can easily press the same button over and over for us, and at 50 years old, with repetitive stress, carpal tunnel, and arthritis being real issues. This might be a good thing.

 

[rvbarton]

IMHO, you should be happy there are people hunting using bots/macros. They fill the coffers of MA so that you can get better loot. Who really cares if they are at their keyboard or not? they are adding funds to the game.

Are you upset you are not getting the returns they are? Is this why you are complaining?

The only time a bot/macro is unacceptable is if they are disrupting your gameplay. in the situation that they ARE indeed disrupting your gameplay, please explain how? My point is that if they have been in a public area for hours, and you show up trying to hunt the same mobs, and they are out DPS'ing you, then YOU should move to a different mob, not them.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Gopher]

IMHO, you should be happy there are people hunting using bots/macros. They fill the coffers of MA so that you can get better loot. Who really cares if they are at their keyboard or not? they are adding funds to the game.

Are you upset you are not getting the returns they are? Is this why you are complaining?

The only time a bot/macro is unacceptable is if they are disrupting your gameplay. in the situation that they ARE indeed disrupting your gameplay, please explain how? My point is that if they have been in a public area for hours, and you show up trying to hunt the same mobs, and they are out DPS'ing you, then YOU should move to a different mob, not them.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Your ok with getting loot with no MU? They destroy the economy since they overproduce resources and demand for crafted items can't keep up with 24/7 hunting. The game population doesn't use as much crafted stuff as the resources supply, so MU keeps dropping. We are at the point were getting shrap is better than most oils for average player. Do you want this to get even worse?

 

[Gopher]

There are very few bots in this game, and they get removed quickly.
There are however quite of bit of players using programmable keyboards to repeatedly hit F and the like.

Big difference though, bots destroy a game economy because they are far more interactive, they can do things like Check items for MU, and put certain things in TT machine and other things on auction, they can scan the auction and bid or post according to current market. They can move the character around to certain coordinates, even on other planets...basically they can play just like a human does, because of the advanced programming, ability to screen read, and memory read.

I watched them destroy the diablo 2 world decades ago, if left unchecked they can quickly make a game unplayable to humans.

I am glad we don't have a real bot problem, we do however live in 2022 when 90% of gaming keyboards and mice, can easily press the same button over and over for us, and at 50 years old, with repetitive stress, carpal tunnel, and arthritis being real issues. This might be a good thing.

They have already made it really easy to play this game with the auto target f button, macros are only a problem if ppl are using them when they are not at the keyboard, which has been happening a lot lately, especially in mayhem. Btw, there are more bots in this game than you realize.