Is Mayhem Pay-to-Win or Luck?

Is Mayhem Pay-to-Win or Luck?


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Oleg

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On top of what everyone else has said, I would make two points that don't seem to have considered:

1. The best gear being advantageous isn't the same thing as pay-to-win. It is possible for someone to play at the top level without having made substantial (or possibly even any) deposits. Though of course big depos make it easier to get there, and these days buying boxes gives you better access to the required buffs.

2. Being able to commit time to it is also an important factor. Most of the high placers do multiple runs to aim for a better score. The more runs you can do, the more opportunity you have to hit the 5k mobs. Someone who can commit to doing the 10 hours 20 times (or has someone doing it for them, but that's another story) has a big advantage over someone who only does it once. That said, if you don't have a high kill rate, doing it 20 times probably won't help much.
 

Jhereg

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The way I think about it is.

Better gear buys you more raffle tickets per hour.

You can win if you get enough winning raffle tickets in the time frame.

So gear increases your chance of doing well in an event, but there has been rare times where a player gets 2 or even 3 5ks in the time frame and win without optimal gear. They got better raffle tickets even though they bought fewer ones.

Even with optimal gear, players usually have to run the event several times in order to achieve good point values.

I would also agree with others that being able to spawn the boss every 30 min should be the bare minimum you are looking to do in terms of dps in your category...
 

DavinFelth

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Equipment based, luck only separates who is in 5th to who is in 1st IMO
pay to win can come in play when you didn't get a good run and can "afford" to reset and try again - i guess

Only time I "competed" I just went in my category using the best (L) gear I could get (this was before pills) and usually improved each round. At the end I "won" because I got one of the booby prized (for 50th place I think it was)
so that was luck :p
 

MeiGDLing

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The way they design the system is to obtain max participation, its not too concerned about what you consider fair as long as it follows some kind of gear and skill matters to an extent logic. Currently a few people have a good chance in each cat, most people that wanna push for it have some chance and even a few players that have close to 0 still complete a run or two with some farfetched dream of looting 4 5k pointers or something.

Only focus of MA is participation and i'd guess what some people here consider more "fair" aka what suits them a bit better would lower participation, gear should matter and it does give you an edge but the variance that gives lesser setups a chance is crucial. I trust MA to figure out the right balance more than the competitors who havent looted a 5k in current mayhem.
 

~ Cirrus ~

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The way they design the system is to obtain max participation, its not too concerned about what you consider fair as long as it follows some kind of gear and skill matters to an extent logic. Currently a few people have a good chance in each cat, most people that wanna push for it have some chance and even a few players that have close to 0 still complete a run or two with some farfetched dream of looting 4 5k pointers or something.
Only focus of MA is participation...
First of all, I think everyone already knew that MA is interested in the turnout.
And that unfortunately MA's expectations are never the same as those of the players.
That's nothing new. :rolleyes:
All they do is compose as best they can to try to fulfill their goals while trying not to "disappoint" the players too much.

and i'd guess what some people here consider more "fair" aka what suits them a bit better would lower participation, gear should matter and it does give you an edge but the variance that gives lesser setups a chance is crucial. I trust MA to figure out the right balance more than the competitors who havent looted a 5k in current mayhem.
I myself participated last year in cat 5, and I placed 4th, only thanks to a 5K (maybe even 2, I don't remember very well).
Without the 5K, I wouldn't have ranked.
Despite that, I already asked last year to remove the 5K, or at least to adjust things as I'm doing it again here.
I must be crazy..

Also, I'm now L75.01, which puts me at the very bottom of my category.
So I'm going to have extremely low chances to be ranked in this category for a very long period, probably for the next 4 or 5 mayhem to come...
So I would really need the help of these 5K. :wise:

But once again, I ask to remove the 5K or to adjust things for more fairness... :eyecrazy:

So I think what you're saying here is not appropriate.
 
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MeiGDLing

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Define fairness in this context, I don't understand what you consider fair or unfair here
 

~ Cirrus ~

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Define fairness in this context, I don't understand what you consider fair or unfair here
I think I've already explained that in my previous posts.

Getting as close as possible to 50% luck 50% efficiency would be fairer.
That is to say that the luck factor would adapt to the real efficiency of the player.

And before you say "it's already the case since the more mob you kill, the more chance you have to catch a 5K".

I'm going to tell, it's not true, because if you have no other choice than to rely on this famous "lucky 5K" to rank you, then it means it's 100% luck.

It's like the lottery where the more tickets you buy, the more chances you have to win the jackpot... And the lottery is 100% luck.
Efficiency in this event should not be only the ability to buy more tickets.

Actually it's simple, either you get a 5K and you have a chance, or you don't get one and you have no chance.
To me that's the definition of luck.

So what I'm saying is that it should be possible to rank, or even win, without any 5K.

That's why bosses should be more important for points.
Hence the 2500 points, and the higher probability for the 500/1000, etc...

In fact, when you look at the results of the Mayhem, we should see a lot less disparity between the scores.
If luck was not so present, we would see variances of only a few points between all the first ones, and sometimes even ties.

Now I'm not saying it's bad how it is now.
Just that it could be better.. :)
 

aVaLON_52

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Looks like pay to win is in the majority vote.

Think about it. Even if there is a random element, still the players with higher DPS will be at the top of that bracket. And greater investments, Uber gear, etc. Are required for that higher DPS.

Essentially the rich get richer.
 

Hijacker27

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Definitely mostly luck based. I came in first place in cat 8 because I got 2x 5k pointers. If I did not get those 5k I wouldn't even end up in top 10. Now I have a tier 9 sword that caps out dps for my category and some of the best rings and other gear to go with it so its not like I was lacking for kill speed either.
 

Killahbee

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Annihilation is more luck based, defense is more skill based.

You need good gear in both to get a high place.
 

Photon

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Definitely mostly luck based. I came in first place in cat 8 because I got 2x 5k pointers. If I did not get those 5k I wouldn't even end up in top 10. Now I have a tier 9 sword that caps out dps for my category and some of the best rings and other gear to go with it so its not like I was lacking for kill speed either.
Nice work on your 1st place mate. I was bumped to 3rd because of it ;)

Here was my score breakdown in cat 8 (and maybe some insight):

Equipment:
BC-80 Augmented Tier 5
Mayhem B-amp BETA (yes, overamped)
Perseus with AP-42 Electric (no healing)
15mg accu, deva and hyper stims
Christmas 2018 ring
Halloween 2019 ring

Main Buffs:
30% reload
7.8% increased crit chance
78% increased crit hit points
5% life steal

Run 1: 9024 points
9 bosses: 4750
1 x 250
Points scored normally: 4024

Run 2: 16,385
9 bosses: 4750
1 x 500
2 x 1000
1 x 5000
Points scored normally: 4135

If I had scored another 5k I still would have been 3rd place (yourself and Dunstone were 21,878 and 21,651 respectively). I put this down to the tier of my gun. Between run 1 and run 2 I went from tier 5 to 6. I can't wait to get it to 10 :)

So what conclusions can be drawn from this?
 

Aloisius

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guy that looted the M83 said he ground the fook outa the big bulks and that he was sad to wait a whole year now...pay to loot and work hard to loot big
 

anonimity

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It is luck in annihilation, and Skill + Equipment in Assault / Defense
 

Jhereg

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Just to complement Photon's post:

I spent about 45 hours equivalent to having maximum effective dps (base cat dmg * (250%) + buffs) in cat 8 and saw no 5ks.

So your experience will vary :)
 

Xen

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I don't think it's really luck in annihilation. You need top dps in your cat. If you do enough rounds you will get the 5k, usually. It's really only bad luck if you don't. The only real luck is getting two 5k's in a single round.
 

JohnCapital

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I don't think it's really luck in annihilation....
Then proceeds to describe how luck and bad luck factor in. :D


Is it Pay-to-Win or Luck? The obvious answer is: Yes.
You won't win if you only buy a TT pistol
On the other side, you can have 30% more DPS than everyone else, but if you don't hit the bigger point values, you can still lose.


Honestly though, what sport/game/competition exists where your chances aren't improved by spending more time/money on gear & practice? :scratch:
 

Legends

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Just to complement Photon's post:

I spent about 45 hours equivalent to having maximum effective dps (base cat dmg * (250%) + buffs) in cat 8 and saw no 5ks.

So your experience will vary :)
Yeah I did 35 hours and had no 5k. I think it's possible someone could do 60 hours and still have no 5k pointers.
 

Xen

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Then proceeds to describe how luck and bad luck factor in. :D
I meant it's a factor but a majority of the time if you put in the hours you will get the 5k. But not always. So it's mostly not luck given enough hours, but there is some chance you will never get a 5k or you will get two 5k's.
 

Legends

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I don't think it's really luck in annihilation. You need top dps in your cat. If you do enough rounds you will get the 5k, usually. It's really only bad luck if you don't. The only real luck is getting two 5k's in a single round.
Care to elaborate on that? How many is 'enough'?
 

Hego Damask

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Yeah I did 35 hours and had no 5k. I think it's possible someone could do 60 hours and still have no 5k pointers.
You cant only measure it with hours. You used L weapon with 0 to 2 dmg enhancers.
Top players using t8-10 weapons, with +80% base dmg compared to that.
They kill the same ammount of mob in 20 hours what you kill in 35 hours.

Pay to win - yes, you can use the best gear, you can do multiple runs.
Luck - yes, with the best gear, you can have low score without big bonus, or you can have big bonus with bad gear.

You were not unlucky, you just competed without sufficient gear and wasnt lucky to win with a lucky big score.

I think this part of the mayhem is good as it is.
As i see, if you dont have the gear, you can still get to top10 or even win in case you lucky.
If you have good gear, your base score will probably enough for top10 with minimal bonuses.

They should make it more fair the rewards for higher category bottom of top10 placements if they want to change something.
 

Legends

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Results from the first 100 Votes:


26% believe luck is the more important factor

47% believe money/equipment is the more important factor

27% believe that both are equally as important
 

fastped

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whoever vote for 5 never competed in mayhem.

Its about having luck and good gear just multiplier your chance having luck thats all.

0 x 10 still 0 :)

thanks
 

unufain8

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The answer is simple imo, if you reasearch the past events for the winners, you will see that 70% are the same, so i guess luck its relative.
 

morey

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Annihilation is luck & gear. There is a fair chance to win with subpar equipment.

The defense/survival/assault is a total gear check. Luck is minimal here.
 

deo

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I won cat 5 easter with a t8 ranked scorpion, first run was my winner, next 2 runs didnt even come close. so i say its all luck with the points.
 
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