Keep ares perfected or switch to Easter 2022

[rvbarton]

good god. break out the pitchforks & torches.

 

[MrBabul]

I think we should be careful when saying this…

DPP does not add more items to the loot. It means your cost to kill is lower, meaning you can cycle more ped and thus kill more mobs, meaning your chance to loot items is higher because there are more loot occasions with the same amount of ped cycled.

The way most people phrase it makes it sound like higher dpp returns more items in every loot occasion which is not true

I might be super wrong but didnt MA said that DPP change loot composition so you get less shrap and more oils etc?
Ok you wrote about actual items and i assumed Msturlese talked about oils, tiers and rest. My bad

 

[Deemer]

I might be super wrong but didnt MA said that DPP change loot composition so you get less shrap and more oils etc?
Ok you wrote about actual items and i assumed Msturlese talked about oils, tiers and rest. My bad

No, that part of my comment, after researching what MindArk said "There's no kill timer. But if a mob is kill too fast or too slow, the composition won't be good"... or something like that. If you want the specific wording, found it in Dev Notes.

 

[R4pDev1l]

No, that part of my comment, after researching what MindArk said "There's no kill timer. But if a mob is kill too fast or too slow, the composition won't be good"... or something like that. If you want the specific wording, found it in Dev Notes.

They didn't say "too fast or too slow", they said that there is no timer.

To best achieve Optimal Loot:

• Be sure to have the Hit Ability and Damage profession requirements maxed (10.0/10.0) on the weapon your avatar is using.
• Avoid over-amping (using a weapon amplifier that adds more than 50% of the maximum damage of the weapon to which it is equipped).
• Minimize healing costs and the need to interrupt damage dealing to heal.

In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.

 

[Deemer]

They didn't say "too fast or too slow", they said that there is no timer.

I have no claim, I read it 2 years ago.

Once you've got the point, isn't it more important to verify its veracity rather than shove a block of text at me?

Shoot mobs with 5,10, 20, 30, 40 shots and see what you get.

 

[Deemer]

They didn't say "too fast or too slow", they said that there is no timer.

• Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors. This system is intended to reward game knowledge, which has traditionally been an important and unique aspect of success in Entropia Universe, and to provide opportunities for participants to improve their loot returns via experimentation, optimization and specialization.

Entropia Universe - Developer-Notes-11-Loot-2.0

Later this month, MindArk will be releasing a special Loot 2.0 Version Update that will overhaul the way in which hunting loot is calculated and distr

www.entropiauniverse.com

 

[M Rufen Power]

“I know so many things but won’t say any of them lololol”

man you are annoying

I have my reasons for not saying much on these forums. What's hilarious to see now is the hypocrisy.
People who used to advocate reading my materials, are the same people now calling me a crackpot.

 

[DrGirlfriend]

I have my reasons for not saying much on these forums. What's hilarious to see now is the hypocrisy.
People who used to advocate reading my materials, are the same people now calling me a crackpot.

Id rather you sharing info instead of being all mysterious about it, it doesn’t add anything to the conversation to be so vague

 

[M Rufen Power]

No, that part of my comment, after researching what MindArk said "There's no kill timer. But if a mob is kill too fast or too slow, the composition won't be good"... or something like that. If you want the specific wording, found it in Dev Notes.

That's 100% correct, I noticed this wording from MA as well, and the first thing I did was go, test it out!

So, when I look at optimal loots, it's all about constant damage, healing less or other actions of no dmg.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Id rather you sharing info instead of being all mysterious about it, it doesn’t add anything to the conversation to be so vague

Then hit me ingame and I might be able to impart some wisdom that's helped me win the loot game.

 

[M Rufen Power]

They didn't say "too fast or too slow", they said that there is no timer.

Deemer was probably paraphrasing their statement the best he could recall.
The point is, whatever MA says, we have to check for ourselves if it's in line with their coding.

 

[Mike Kaffeslukarn Morazi]

No, that part of my comment, after researching what MindArk said "There's no kill timer. But if a mob is kill too fast or too slow, the composition won't be good"... or something like that. If you want the specific wording, found it in Dev Notes.

I think you mean this?
"There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time". Dev notes #12.

 

[DrGirlfriend]

Then hit me ingame and I might be able to impart some wisdom that's helped me win the loot game.

Will do!

 

[M Rufen Power]

What I can reveal here is Loot 2.0 guns are not that special and have high/nerfed DPP as it's no longer linear.

I will say very clearly that Efficiency has no merit, it's been made redundant via nerfing and looter professions.

Plus efficiency is meant to be a by-product of the weapons inherent in DPP, having a higher DPP = more ops.

2 uber players have stated that Looter is better than Efficiency. What's the real benefit of Loot 2.0 guns? Prices.

 

[UnaAlconbury]

[Moderated: Removed reply to deleted post]

What I can reveal here is Loot 2.0 guns are not that special and have high/nerfed DPP as it's no longer linear.

I will say very clearly that Efficiency has no merit, it's been made redundant via nerfing and looter professions.

Plus efficiency is meant to be a by-product of the weapons inherent in DPP, having a higher DPP = more ops.

2 uber players have stated that Looter is better than Efficiency. What's the real benefit of Loot 2.0 guns? Prices.

Yet Zho's testing (link) quite clearly has every loot instance impacted by both looter and efficiency factors, both seemingly ranging between 0 and ~7% impact. Which basically is exactly what Mindark has been saying all along.

Efficiency being a by-product of the weapon's DPP was just how Mindark assigned efficiency to all present weapons at the time of 2.0 implementation. After this we have seen newly introduced weapons breaking this DPP-efficiency ratio. BP-110 Improved is one example. But perhaps this is what you meant? First sentence wasn't exactly clear to me what you meant by nerfed DPP.

Either way, without even putting weight on if you are right or wrong, if you never support your theories in any feasible way other than claiming you know things, then discussions are simply doomed. People will just laugh at you rather than be impressed, give recognition or whatever you are after when you claim things without support. Conversation turning into attacks, as you put it. Especially if the claims straight up contradict both what Mindark says, and clear, transparent testing like Zho's work.

 

[Aloisius]

who took my pitchfork?

 

[M Rufen Power]

[Moderated: Removed reply to deleted post]


Yet Zho's testing (link) quite clearly has every loot instance impacted by both looter and efficiency factors, both seemingly ranging between 0 and ~7% impact. Which basically is exactly what Mindark has been saying all along.

Efficiency being a by-product of the weapon's DPP was just how Mindark assigned efficiency to all present weapons at the time of 2.0 implementation. After this we have seen newly introduced weapons breaking this DPP-efficiency ratio. BP-110 Improved is one example. But perhaps this is what you meant? First sentence wasn't exactly clear to me what you meant by nerfed DPP.

Either way, without even putting weight on if you are right or wrong, if you never support your theories in any feasible way other than claiming you know things, then discussions are simply doomed. People will just laugh at you rather than be impressed, give recognition or whatever you are after when you claim things without support. Conversation turning into attacks, as you put it. Especially if the claims straight up contradict both what Mindark says, and clear, transparent testing like Zho's work.

I guess everyone forgets the fine print? "Take these with a grain of thought, as some of this is based on my opinion." Zho's Quote.

People need to remember, that unless you know how the loot system works for a FACT, you are in fact dabbling in theory, we all are tbh.

As MA has said time and time again, any sort of testing or data collection is always flawed, in some aspect because we are not the devs.

 

[miathan]

I guess everyone forgets the fine print? "Take these with a grain of thought, as some of this is based on my opinion." Zho's Quote.

Good comeback .

All I can say is that my own data fits well with Zhos. Basically 0-7% TT looter and 0-7% TT for efficiency.
You can think of your total TT efficiency as Looter + Eff. Where you can have anything between 0 and 200 points (we have no public data on looter > 100 so will not theorize on that).
Increasing your looter by 10 levels is the same as increasing your weapon efficiency be 10%. This is one reason to say that looter is more important than eff since it will typically have a bigger impact long term. Going from 60% eff to 80 or 90 is "only" 20-30 points while going from 20 looter to 60 looter is 40 points.
Both are important though since every small percentage counts if you cycle a lot. You need to push your TT+MU slightly above 100% to profit, that's it.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Good comeback .

All I can say is that my own data fits well with Zhos. Basically 0-7% TT looter and 0-7% TT for efficiency.
You can think of your total TT efficiency as Looter + Eff. Where you can have anything between 0 and 200 points (we have no public data on looter > 100 so will not theorize on that).
Increasing your looter by 10 levels is the same as increasing your weapon efficiency be 10%. This is one reason to say that looter is more important than eff since it will typically have a bigger impact long term. Going from 60% eff to 80 or 90 is "only" 20-30 points while going from 20 looter to 60 looter is 40 points.
Both are important though since every small percentage counts if you cycle a lot. You need to push your TT+MU slightly above 100% to profit, that's it.

Efficiency is only required if you lack looter skills, very simple. Both of them don't stack and interact with each other to ensure people don't hunt and go broke from hunting, but yet again, you have loot cycles intermingled with PVP, go FML. Wake up! Even 60% efficiency with Lvl 40 looter will reach 7%.

If the aim is to increase your TT returns I'd still recommend Easter Ring 2022 over Ares Perfected & stop buying hyper-inflated Loot 2.0 weps.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Title says it all.
I am thinking of switching to a easter 2022 instead of the ares perfected.
My main goals in hunting are to get the best possible tt-return.
I mostly hunt mobs in the 500-1000 hp range. My lvl's are way above the lvl i hunt at.
I'll be getting less kills per time spend because of the loss of the reload buff.

What are your tougths on the matter?

If it helps you make a better decision this link is a hunting log i've been keeping.
hunting return log | Virtualsense.eu

Just to give you an example:

I can achieve an avg 3.509 DPP rating using an old sib gun at the lv 20 range using E22 @ 51 DPS.
I can achieve an avg 3.317 DPP rating using the same weapon but of course, using Ares @ 55 DPS.

The difference in DPP is around 5.78% higher, and the DPS is about 7.84% lower. Ped wise it's 192.
How many more mobs could you kill with that 192 ped difference, hm? If it's 3 peds per kill, 64 kills.

 

[Katie Chalmers]

Wake up! Even 60% efficiency with Lvl 40 looter will reach 7%.

Why settle for 7% on top of your base return when the evidence suggests you cap at 14%?

 

[Msturlese]

All in all we are reasoning (apart some old TT knuckles or toy snowballer)
in a range from 60 to 80% between lowest setup for some mid level player
i cannot think of anyone hunting with Piron20 and its 28 eff
so the REAL point of debate is all in a MAX 1.8% of base returns

i see much more important reasoning on Total Retirn (TT+MUof loot) to see if it is > total decay+ mu lost

 

[UnaAlconbury]

I guess everyone forgets the fine print? "Take these with a grain of thought, as some of this is based on my opinion." Zho's Quote.

People need to remember, that unless you know how the loot system works for a FACT, you are in fact dabbling in theory, we all are tbh.

As MA has said time and time again, any sort of testing or data collection is always flawed, in some aspect because we are not the devs.

He means his discussion at the end of his post should be taken with a grain of salt, as this involves assumptions on base and max tt return and the table he assembled "for shits and giggles". The testing presented before that is the actual important part even if most people just skip reading that. It shows impact on tt return from both looter and efficiency.

Right, now you try to sweep the questioning of your theory under the rug by saying we are all dabbling in theory and nothing is fact. Splendid.
So we got two theories; first one with transparent testing as well as Mindark's words backing it up. Second one contradicting the first, without anything at all backing it up.

 

[Msturlese]

FYI: - How Loot Returns Work as Function of Looter Level and Efficiency, Based on Actual Data, as of March 3rd, 2022

Update 20220911: I have measured the effect on TT at three additional looter level points, using my method of extracting the lowest multiplier and with the reaper blade. The observed trend is still the same. I have placed the data at the end of this point along with a brief description. A...

www.planetcalypsoforum.com

Science is different from Craft because an experiement can be replicated.
apart the method of Multipliers the tables proposed in the thread can be tested by anyone with new looter tracking software

 

[Ferial]

Deemer was probably paraphrasing their statement the best he could recall.

I really hate it when your paraphrasing ends up directly contradicting the clarifying statement, don´t you?

Just to give you an example:

I can achieve an avg 3.509 DPP rating using an old sib gun at the lv 20 range using E22 @ 51 DPS.
I can achieve an avg 3.317 DPP rating using the same weapon but of course, using Ares @ 55 DPS.

The difference in DPP is around 5.78% higher, and the DPS is about 7.84% lower. Ped wise it's 192.
How many more mobs could you kill with that 192 ped difference, hm? If it's 3 peds per kill, 64 kills.

Noone is disputing that DPP still matters. Noone is disputing the fact that DPP is still important. Noone is disputing that higher DPP nets you more kills for the same PED. Noone is disputing that getting more kills for the same PED is good.

Being able to kill more mobs for the same PED gives you more stability over the same cycle. It gives you higher MU % in that you spend less PED for the same MU (potentially, depending on what you are after). Higher DPP has countless of positive things about it. What it does not do, however, is impact your TT return at all.

What is being disputed is the claim that DPP has a positive impact on your TT return, and what is being discussed is the following statement:

If the aim is to increase your TT returns I'd still recommend Easter Ring 2022 over Ares Perfected & stop buying hyper-inflated Loot 2.0 weps.

The reason it is being disputed is that it is directly opposing official statements, no data has been provided to substantiate the claim and it has been contradicted by other data. I would also prefer if people stopped paying for the good weapons so I could afford my upgrade sooner, so we agree on something!

The fact that these claims also comes from accounts that have previously provided questionable, unsubstantiated statements probably has an impact as well, but that is probably beside the point.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Being able to kill more mobs for the same PED gives you more stability over the same cycle. It gives you higher MU % in that you spend less PED for the same MU (potentially, depending on what you are after). Higher DPP has countless of positive things about it. What it does not do, however, is impact your TT return at all.

What people fail to mention is that loot cycles play a part in people's loot returns.
Understanding loot cycles is the most important aspect here to profitable hunting.

 

[melissa.fleur]

In fact, it would be much easier and faster for me to reach many conclusions if there were normal people who could argue their opinion in some way. Instead, after every comment I make, there is an avalanche of inflammatory and pointless comments....I think that's what you're missing on this forum.

Hence my abbreviated comment, because at this very moment I was writing a report to MindArk regarding an employee of theirs who no longer even hides his biases and even i think is a player.

In a day or two, I will make that report public, and until then just don't attack Rufen or anyone else who is happy with what I wrote.

If you have something you hate in my comment, you better write it directly to me.

I really laugh on that one. Thanks for the entertainment.

To OP, I bought Easter 2022 some months ago. didn’t see any increase in TT return from my ares ring. My set up is 3.5DPP.
It’s a good ring if you plan to do a lot of mission based on kill count.
Again, DPP or DPS all depend on your play style.

 

[Deemer]

I really laugh on that one. Thanks for the entertainment.

To OP, I bought Easter 2022 some months ago. didn’t see any increase in TT return from my ares ring. My set up is 3.5DPP.
It’s a good ring if you plan to do a lot of mission based on kill count.
Again, DPP or DPS all depend on your play style.

According to the people you praise unreservedly, players only buy expensive items when they understand their actions. And your forum activity so far suggests that you are one of the many who understand the game to perfection.

How did you manage to purchase something you don't understand... I'm very surprised by you...

 

[melissa.fleur]

According to the people you praise unreservedly, players only buy expensive items when they understand their actions. And your forum activity so far suggests that you are one of the many who understand the game to perfection.

How did you manage to purchase something you don't understand... I'm very surprised by you...

I praise nobody, I simply read dev note and use Excel sheet.

Nobody said DPP is bad. You just need to understand what is the purpose. It happen that in loot 2.0, it isn't increasing TT return.

 

[melissa.fleur]

[Moderated: Removed reply to deleted post]

List of official statments pertaining to loot post 2.0

Since i've been getting questions in-game requesting sources for statements I've made it appears as though many players have missed these statements. Figured I´d save them in a post so I can just link this post instead of having to find the posts each time, as well as inform anyone on PCF who...

www.planetcalypsoforum.com

Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update One of MindArk’s primary long-term goals is to make Entropia Universe as affordable and entertaining as possible for all participants. Toward that end, MindArk is continually experimenting with various adjustments to in-game systems, with an eye toward...

www.planetcalypsoforum.com

1)
Charlie|MindArk said:
No, DPP and Efficiency are not the same thing. DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP. Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.

2)
Charlie|MindArk said:
There also seems to still be a lot of confusion in regards to what "Efficiency" does. Efficiency has a direct effect on the overall TT return, it does not directly affect loot composition.

3)
Effects of Critical Hits/Damage on Loot
Finally, we have noticed several misconceptions in recent community discussions regarding Critical Hits that we would like to clarify. Critical Hits do not have a direct impact on loot value calculations per se. Since loot is now based on the actual cost to kill a creature in Loot 2.0, dealing more damage via critical hits (or by having higher damage per pec) does result in smaller loot events for a given creature, but this effect is directly proportional to the lower cost to kill and allows more creatures to be killed (i.e. more loot events) for a given amount of PED spent. Also, the composition of loot improves in such cases and results in a lower proportion of Shrapnel in loot. In other words, the use of items or consumables that provide increased Critical Hit Chance or Critical Damage can never have a negative effect on loot returns.

afterward, they implemented looter profession without a dev note. Nobody have an absolute answer about that but this thread is a good one to read:

FYI: - How Loot Returns Work as Function of Looter Level and Efficiency, Based on Actual Data, as of March 3rd, 2022

"Great post! I know you actually tested and recorded data, but heres a random made up idea which goes against that data, which I didnt test whatsoever, that I still feel the need to post in response." Moral of the story, don't post on forums when drunk! 🙈

www.planetcalypsoforum.com

If you read all those informations on a second or third level, I will let you facing north for better loot.