L finder VS UNL finder + depth enh

[Leeloo Miner]

First of all, let me mention that I see mining here as starting a business and keeping it running + fun ofc.

This means that I want to find the resources as cheaply as possible and avoid the almost useless resources, as well as whatever sells fastest build a bigger stock.

So the drop cost price and what I can find with this is at the top of the list and this varies from zone to zone and especially what you can find there.

There is also the cap on certain resources or availability.

There is also the question of whether the drop cost is important with finding certain ‘rare’ or caped resources or is the depth more important.

In this thread, I am trying to figure this out.

Where I'm mining ... I'm sure you can find that out.

I have been doing testing in zones where I mine regularly since quite some time, but to keep my stock under control I usually don't stay in the same zone for too long, so the results come in slowly.

By analizing zone per zone, I save a lot of peds

Let the discussions begin

 

[Leeloo Miner]

Just a bit of explanation on the spreadsheet.
TT finder = TT dropcost
Finder + % = what the L finder costs + MU (counting year MU)
Cost of enhancers when they break, I count 0,60 ped for 1 enhancer that breaks
Depth : is the depth of the finder with or without enhancers.

Costs for enhanders is tiny, cause I counted like +1700 drops before the first enh broke and I used up to lvl 5 enhancers.

Want to avoid : Azzurdite - Valurite
Azzurdite and Valurite are 2 fairly expensive resources (TT wise) that you can only sell occasionally, so here you're stuck with the fact that it can take a long time to sell them at a certain % and where the window of opportunity to sell them is very short.
Selling these in the TT is losing 2 x peds.
The first reason is that you can sell them at % and the 2nd reason is that if you wouldn't mine these, you will get other resources in their place that you can sell at %.

Want to mine : Igni
Igni is of course the eye catcher here in terms of %

Avoiding azzurdite :
Has more to do with depth I think and not the dropcost of the finder.
From a depth of approx 400, you get azzurdite in every run with any finder.
So depending on my stock, I use a finder that mines more or less Azzurdite.

Avoiding Valurite :
Valurite can only be mined if you go very deep, in my runs minimum TM 5 was needed, so not really to use that in this zone.

Want to mine : Igni
Very positive here was mining igni so far with almost any finder !!!
I also have a suspicion that Igni is not always available and sometimes capped, because whether I went mining shallow or deeper, the amount of igni in my returns remained the same or was absent.

	TT finder	Finder +%	Enh	Depth	Azzurd	Belkar	Copper	Erdo	Igni	Lyst	Valurite	Niks
MD-10	1,00%			204,00	0,00%	14,02%	4,32%	0,00%	1,28%	59,56%	0,00%	13,97%
Demonic	1,00%	1,60%		204,00	0,00%	52,27%	8,01%	0,00%	0,89%	44,09%	0,00%	40,31%
TM1	1,50%	2,40%		206,00	0,00%	19,93%	9,37%	0,00%	1,36%	38,39%	0,00%	8,45%
DSEC L2	1,13%	1,36%		213,90	0,00%	18,88%	12,61%	0,00%	0,00%	32,93%	0,00%	18,90%
MD-10 + 1	1,00%			218,90	0,00%	30,39%	3,29%	0,00%	0,00%	40,87%	0,00%	14,30%
F-101	1,00%			263,70	0,00%	23,67%	21,52%	1,61%	0,00%	22,53%	0,00%	26,04%
F-101 + 1	1,00%			282,16	0,00%	12,70%	5,99%	7,49%	4,14%	21,26%	0,00%	21,45%
F-101 + 2	1,00%			300,62	0,00%	17,18%	5,83%	3,15%	0,00%	23,36%	0,00%	31,85%
Ziplex 5	1,86%	1,97%		303,50	1,56%	18,40%	6,75%	0,78%	7,27%	27,51%	0,00%	37,92%
Sabad 2	0,94%	1,05%		303,50	0,00%	12,82%	2,76%	0,00%	2,76%	14,46%	0,00%	33,80%
F-101 + 3	1,00%			321,90
F-102	1,15%			323,40	0,00%	14,19%	6,08%	0,92%	4,59%	23,03%	0,00%	27,73%
F-101 + 4	1,00%			341,30
F-102 + 1	1,15%			346,04
F-101 + 5	1,00%			360,70
F-103	1,45%			363,20	0,00%	16,67%	11,96%	3,39%	2,28%	30,20%	0,00%	29,25%
F-102 + 2	1,15%			371,20	0,00%	28,14%	11,53%	4,80%	6,30%	26,36%	0,00%	53,06%
F-101 + 6	1,00%			380,10
F-103 + 1	1,45%			388,62
F-102 + 3	1,15%			395,00	3,54%	7,49%	14,31%	0,00%	4,81%	28,27%	0,00%	21,45%
Ziplex 10	2,21%	2,49%		403,00	0,00%	11,91%	6,72%	3,88%	0,97%	25,47%	0,00%	32,04%
TM 2	2,20%	2,37%		408,00	1,16%	30,20%	7,06%	0,00%	1,70%	19,09%	0,00%	35,43%

 

[Balam]

Another nice analysis, Leeloo!
Always amazed to see you are keep going strong on mining

 

[Leeloo Miner]

Another nice analysis, Leeloo!
Always amazed to see you are keep going strong on mining

Thank you so much

Gains come (to me) in 2 different ways.

1) The big difference between the cost of mining itself.
You get the same TT % in return whether you mine with an F-101, which is 1% of your cost or with, say, a TM 6 which is 5% of your cost.
So here you already gain 4% of the costs
Add to that the cost of extracting / refining with a very cheap extractor / refiner and you gain another few %.

2) By gaining a very good knowledge of when to best sell the resources (when it peaks at auction) and therefore can be sold with a high %.
But for this you have to go stocking.
Testing out different sizes of stacks and % is also very important and requires patience and knowledge.

 

[The Mind]

You get the same TT % in return whether you mine with an F-101, which is 1% of your cost or with, say, a TM 6 which is 5% of your cost.
So here you already gain 4% of the costs

You get loot based on what you spend. If you spend 5 times more on drop, youll get 5 times more in loot.
You dont "save" by using cheaper "cost per drop". Your "TT in" is always acting as a base for the outcome calculation.

 

[Leeloo Miner]

You get loot based on what you spend. If you spend 5 times more on drop, youll get 5 times more in loot.
You dont "save" by using cheaper "cost per drop". Your "TT in" is always acting as a base for the outcome calculation.

If I look at the TT returns of all finders in this zone I am between 69.38% and 148.74% with the worst returns being at the deeper finders.
If I look at the globals, I sit with returns between 148.72% and 603.09% and ... again ... all with the finders between MD-10 and F-104.

Added to that, at the deeper finders I get more Azzurdite, so there I still lose a higher % after selling.

Most of the positives in TT returns as well as after selling are between MD-10 and F-104.

I understand what you mean but I calculate everything as % and if I get more low % resources with deeper finders that cost more it doesn't make any sense, I look at what is in the returns to largely get my profit.
This is also why I don't care about TT returns at all, I care about how much the total is after selling.

To give you an example :
If I mine with deeper finders in the same zone I get the following results from Emine to TM6 with the amount of azzurdite and where the same amount of igni remains as with the lower finders :
Emine : 39.06%
TM 4 : 40.87%
TM 5 : 52.22%
TM 6 : 31.01%

 

[Hego Damask]

If I look at the TT returns of all finders in this zone I am between 69.38% and 148.74% with the worst returns being at the deeper finders.
If I look at the globals, I sit with returns between 148.72% and 603.09% and ... again ... all with the finders between MD-10 and F-104.

Added to that, at the deeper finders I get more Azzurdite, so there I still lose a higher % after selling.

Most of the positives in TT returns as well as after selling are between MD-10 and F-104.

I understand what you mean but I calculate everything as % and if I get more low % resources with deeper finders that cost more it doesn't make any sense, I look at what is in the returns to largely get my profit.
This is also why I don't care about TT returns at all, I care about how much the total is after selling.

To give you an example :
If I mine with deeper finders in the same zone I get the following results from Emine to TM6 with the amount of azzurdite and where the same amount of igni remains as with the lower finders :
Emine : 39.06%
TM 4 : 40.87%
TM 5 : 52.22%
TM 6 : 31.01%

Nice thread, thanks for the infos.
I recently started testing mining with Your methods, at least those methods what i can read in your threads, and see for myself if i can do similar results like Yours are, ofc the expectations are lower than Your results, i lack that 20+ year of experience that may also have some role in your results
So far it is going ok, but the percentage of MU vs trash could be better. Guess i should try some lower depth finders too now and see how it changes.

 

[Leeloo Miner]

Here are the results with deeper finders ... Hope this brings clarity

Bear in mind that mining this way can be very different from zone to zone.

	TT finder	Finder +%	Enh	Depth	Azzurd	Belkar	Copper	Erdo	Igni	Lyst	Valurite	Niks
Emine	1,74%	2,00%		676,60	39,06%	9,71%	2,51%	1,19%	6,14%	12,27%	0,00%	29,36%
TM 4	3,72%	4,17%		741,30	40,87%	8,28%	5,45%	1,40%	1,10%	10,27%	0,00%	32,31%
TM5	4,13%	4,61%		830,80	52,22%	3,62%	0,76%	3,50%	1,40%	15,34%	3,00%	20,16%
TM6	4,37%	5,32%		885,60	32,01%	3,90%	2,38%	0,91%	4,27%	15,16%	0,00%	41,36%

 

[Balam]

I believe what Leeloo saying here is per area, a miner should match the resources with the finder to use. This way, one can maximize MU make up of what you find.
This is not to get higher TT but rather to get MU to cover long slight loss in TT and even make ped if you are good as Leeloo.

This is definitely done with years of data and knowledge for sure.
I wish I can keep learning and be better but 10 years are not enough yet to get to that level

 

[The Mind]

If I look at the TT returns of all finders in this zone I am between 69.38% and 148.74% with the worst returns being at the deeper finders.
If I look at the globals, I sit with returns between 148.72% and 603.09% and ... again ... all with the finders between MD-10 and F-104.

Added to that, at the deeper finders I get more Azzurdite, so there I still lose a higher % after selling.

Most of the positives in TT returns as well as after selling are between MD-10 and F-104.

I understand what you mean but I calculate everything as % and if I get more low % resources with deeper finders that cost more it doesn't make any sense, I look at what is in the returns to largely get my profit.
This is also why I don't care about TT returns at all, I care about how much the total is after selling.

To give you an example :
If I mine with deeper finders in the same zone I get the following results from Emine to TM6 with the amount of azzurdite and where the same amount of igni remains as with the lower finders :
Emine : 39.06%
TM 4 : 40.87%
TM 5 : 52.22%
TM 6 : 31.01%

I did understand the point from the first message.
You can influence MU, be it via getting better %MU resources, based on the finder you use per area, or doing the same job with cheap UL finder than with L finder, which you would have to pay MU for.
But you cant affect TT returns by reducing TT costs.

For the case of F-101 and TM6 doing the same job. Your difference, in costs, would be (according to the current market for TM6) of 15% for decay in MU.
For 1k drops F-101: at 1 pec (rounded) = 10ped decay + 1k tt in probes for ores = 1010 ped.
For 1k drops TM6: at 5 pec (rounded) = 50ped decay + 50ped * 0.15 = 7.5 ped MU + 1k tt in probes fo rores = 1057.5ped

It looks like 5 times the cost for decay (10 vs 50+7.5) or (~1% vs ~5%+MU).
But the actual difference is: 0.75% if you equalize the "TT in" for the whole run (If 1000(probes) + 10(tt) = 100% / then 1000(probes) + 10(tt equlized) + 7.5(mu) = 100.75%)
Or 75% cost increase for decay only (10(tt) vs 10(tt equalized)+7.5(mu)). For a total of ~1.75% decay cost.
But, regardless of how you want to view it, only decay or a total, the absolute difference is of MU only: 7.5ped/1k drops.

 

[Leeloo Miner]

First of all, I would like to thank The Mind for the calculation
This means that every 1K drops I save 7.5 ped and thus have 10-15 auction fees for free.

Now for the real thing, is it cheaper to use UNL finders with depth enhancers or not ...

The answer speaks for itself I think.
How deep you want to go is up to you, but I stopped at a certain depth because I think it was unnecessary to go deeper in this zone.

By going no deeper than around 400 metres or so, I avoid most of the azzurdite but I still get igni, my primary target.
By avoiding azzurdite I also get more other resources with a better MU as you can see with the deeper finders ... the deeper the more azzurdite ...

Also remember that tiering your finders also costs peds, you get the TT back but you mainly lose the MU from materials.

EDIT : The cost for the depth enhancers was calculated based on drops NOT returns, as I wanted to know how fast/slow enhancers break, also based on how much you use at a time.

The cost of depth enhancers on UNL finders is ... 0.26% when I calculate them at 175.64% so 0.60 ped

And I know some will ask ... how much did you cycle ... 6200 ped.

	TT finder	Finder +%	TTfinder+Enh	Depth	Azzurd	Belkar	Copper	Erdo	Igni	Lyst	Valurite	Niks		TT return
MD-10	1,00%			204,00	0,00%	14,33%	4,41%	0,00%	1,31%	60,86%	0,00%	13,97%		94,87%
Demonic	1,00%	1,60%		204,00	0,00%	53,81%	8,24%	0,00%	0,92%	45,38%	0,00%	40,31%		148,66%
TM1	1,50%	2,40%		206,00	0,00%	20,59%	9,68%	0,00%	1,40%	39,66%	0,00%	8,45%		79,78%
DSEC L2	1,13%	1,36%		213,90	0,00%	19,28%	12,88%	0,00%	0,00%	33,62%	0,00%	18,90%		84,68%
MD-10 + 1	1,00%		1,00%	218,90	0,00%	31,00%	3,36%	0,00%	0,00%	41,69%	0,00%	14,30%		90,35%
F-101	1,00%			263,70	0,00%	24,08%	21,89%	1,64%	0,00%	22,92%	0,00%	26,04%		96,58%
F-101 + 1	1,00%		1,00%	282,16	0,00%	12,90%	6,08%	7,60%	4,20%	21,59%	0,00%	21,45%		73,82%
F-101 + 2	1,00%		1,00%	300,62	0,00%	17,46%	5,92%	3,20%	0,00%	23,74%	0,00%	31,85%		82,17%
Ziplex 5	1,86%	1,97%		303,50	1,60%	18,89%	6,93%	0,80%	7,47%	28,25%	0,00%	37,92%		101,86%
Sabad 2	0,94%	1,05%		303,50	0,00%	13,01%	2,80%	0,00%	2,80%	14,68%	0,00%	33,80%		67,09%
F-101 + 3	1,00%		1,60%	321,90	2,40%	21,14%	13,92%	0,00%	0,00%	20,55%	0,00%	30,55%		88,56%
F-102	1,15%			323,40	0,00%	14,44%	6,19%	0,93%	4,67%	23,43%	0,00%	27,73%		77,39%
F-101 + 4	1,00%		1,00%	341,30	0,00%	10,11%	12,30%	0,00%	2,76%	17,25%	0,00%	51,35%		93,76%
F-102 + 1	1,15%		1,15%	346,04	0,00%	12,09%	9,09%	3,14%	7,55%	42,48%	0,00%	24,70%		99,05%
F-101 + 5	1,00%		1,00%	360,70	0,00%	35,15%	0,00%	0,00%	5,19%	2,57%	0,00%	56,57%		99,48%
F-103	1,45%			363,20	0,00%	17,03%	12,21%	3,47%	2,33%	30,85%	0,00%	29,25%		95,14%
F-102 + 2	1,15%		1,15%	371,20	0,00%	28,69%	11,76%	4,90%	6,43%	26,88%	0,00%	53,06%		131,71%
F-101 + 6	1,00%		2,20%	380,10	3,60%	12,56%	8,96%	2,40%	7,70%	11,95%	0,00%	34,45%		81,62%
F-103 + 1	1,45%		1,45%	388,62	8,40%	19,64%	2,56%	5,60%	6,30%	36,53%	0,00%	24,70%		103,73%
F-102 + 3	1,15%		1,15%	395,00	3,60%	7,62%	14,56%	0,00%	4,90%	28,77%	0,00%	21,45%		80,90%
Ziplex 10	2,21%	2,49%		403,00	0,00%	12,11%	6,84%	3,94%	0,99%	25,89%	0,00%	32,04%		81,81%
TM 2	2,20%	2,37%		408,00	1,20%	31,12%	7,28%	0,00%	1,75%	19,67%	0,00%	35,43%		96,45%
F-103 + 2	1,45%		1,45%	416,90	0,00%	6,56%	10,54%	8,94%	0,00%	45,09%	0,00%	22,94%		94,08%
F-104	1,63%			432,90	6,00%	12,12%	2,40%	3,20%	11,20%	13,67%	0,00%	40,95%		89,54%
F-211	1,41%	1,41%		472,60	2,40%	13,02%	5,60%	0,00%	0,00%	33,80%	0,00%	31,85%		86,67%
Ziplex 15	1,28%	1,43%		477,60	4,80%	7,46%	6,88%	1,60%	5,60%	17,91%	0,00%	20,15%		64,40%
F-105	2,05%			522,40	6,00%	17,44%	11,84%	0,00%	0,00%	24,94%	0,00%	60,45%		120,67%
Ziplex 20	1,46%	1,61%		552,30	13,20%	5,66%	2,56%	5,60%	0,00%	20,67%	0,00%	39,00%		86,69%
F-106	1,80%	1,80%		582,10	27,27%	352,73%	5,82%	7,27%	0,00%	55,98%	0,00%	28,07%		477,14%
F-212	1,34%	1,65%		592,00	34,80%	5,10%	4,96%	1,60%	7,00%	3,97%	0,00%	38,35%		95,78%
Ziplex 25	3,25%	3,65%		626,90	22,67%	6,71%	3,02%	3,11%	0,00%	15,89%	0,00%	39,72%		91,12%
F-213	1,66%	1,92%		631,80	14,12%	4,47%	5,33%	0,00%	12,35%	13,00%	0,00%	124,90%		174,18%
TM 3	1,66%	1,92%		631,80	27,60%	98,40%	5,60%	0,00%	2,80%	15,99%	0,00%	22,10%		172,49%
Emine	1,74%	2,00%		676,60	49,83%	12,39%	3,20%	1,22%	7,83%	15,66%	0,00%	37,46%		127,58%
TM 4	3,72%	4,17%		741,30	34,80%	7,05%	4,64%	1,47%	0,93%	8,74%	0,00%	27,52%		85,15%
TM5	4,13%	4,61%		830,80	82,53%	5,72%	1,20%	5,53%	2,21%	24,24%	4,74%	31,86%		158,03%
TM6	4,37%	5,32%		885,60	28,00%	3,41%	2,08%	0,80%	3,73%	13,26%	0,00%	36,18%		87,47%
					Azzurd	Belkar	Copper	Erdo	Igni	Lyst	Valurite	Niks

 

[dabioka]

nice data, but i dont get it when you add up all the ressource you found per finder it doesn't match 100% of ressources found.

 

[Leeloo Miner]

nice data, but i dont get it when you add up all the ressource you found per finder it doesn't match 100% of ressources found.

Thanks for notifying, these are averages.
The cost of the broken enhancers is calculated /drop, not in return and ofc I do not get always 100% return.

EDIT : I added the TT return (including costs)

 

[Vill]

Maybe it's interesting to see some results of these tests, but overall it's too complicated to test.
When I mine, I just use all 10 enhancers all the time and all I can say mu lost on enhancer breaks is quite tiny and don't make significant influence, so not really see the point to maybe save few pecs using less enhancers. Unless you know area is crap and you can't find good materials here, but then maybe you should mine elsewhere

 

[Leeloo Miner]

Maybe it's interesting to see some results of these tests, but overall it's too complicated to test.
When I mine, I just use all 10 enhancers all the time and all I can say mu lost on enhancer breaks is quite tiny and don't make significant influence, so not really see the point to maybe save few pecs using less enhancers. Unless you know area is crap and you can't find good materials here, but then maybe you should mine elsewhere

Actually, I was a bit shocked at how cheap the use of depth enhancers is.

Add to this the fact that UNL finders are also much cheaper than L finders ... then you know where your losses and/or profits are.

I am also not at all interested in mining the more rare resources because the fillers and mid-resources give much more because they sell faster.

From experience, I know that every year it gets harder and harder to still keep mining without depos, so every peC/peD I can save counts.

For me, it is important to save every ped if possible. Even if it is only 7.5 ped/1K drops where I save about 10-15 times the auction fee, and that profit is reflected in my monthly profits.

The results of this test are in 2nd (TT finder), 3th (TT L finder) and 4 th (TT+enh finder) row in % to see how much it costs / drop and the difference is not much in 100 drops but if you count in thousand or 10 thousand drops, it adds up.

 

[Leeloo Miner]

Any peD/peC I can save is extra profit so ...

Comparing my results with last year in terms of depth, I was already starting to see differences.
Some resources where deeper and then others less deep.

I noticed that now, I could use at least the F-103 to find cave sap in my returns and last year this was only with the F-104

So time to investigate and analyse.

And of course also answer the question whether it was worth using depth enharcers in terms of cost.

I also wondered if I had to have a minimum decay to mine Cave Sap.
For now, I have to say NO

Therefore some tests with the F-102 + 1 depth enhancer which would then reach about the same depth as the F-103 and BINGO !!!
By mining this way, the profit % goes back up a bit because the finder's decay is lower.
The difference 1 depth enhancer can make and they hardly break.
I have no interest in the vegatation as the sales % is too low.

Next runs will be with F-101 + depth enhancers to look for when I see cave sap in my returns.

Finder cost	Dpth		Alic	Cave sap	Garcen	Magerian	Nexus	Oil	Typo	Vegatation
1,00%	204,00	MD-10	33,99%	0,00%	0,00%	2,11%	4,48%	55,62%	3,80%	0,00%
1,00%	263,70	F-101	21,54%	0,00%	8,70%	5,15%	6,86%	39,54%	19,48%	0,00%
1,15%	323,40	F-102	35,27%	0,00%	5,86%	4,39%	2,32%	51,00%	4,21%	0,00%
	341,30	F-101+4
1,15%	347,30	F-102+1	13,39%	6,09%	5,42%	19,52%	6,31%	40,07%	8,37%	0,00%
1,45%	363,20	F-103	9,43%	7,19%	3,79%	2,13%	2,75%	63,91%	10,21%	0,00%
1,63%	432,90	F-104	10,84%	2,38%	3,58%	9,41%	14,69%	53,72%	4,58%	0,00%
2,05%	522,4	F-105	8,55%	7,68%	6,16%	6,11%	9,27%	42,23%	18,52%	0,00%
1,80%	582,1	F-106	17,50%	12,48%	0,00%	7,53%	4,23%	49,23%	9,03%	0,00%
			Alic	Cave sap	Garcen	Magerian	Nexus	Oil	Typo	Vegatation
		Totall %	18,09%	3,60%	3,79%	4,92%	6,22%	46,48%	9,13%	0,00%