Info: Leeloo's Mining Guide

Geronimo

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Umm by noob finder, I mean the tt finders or finders that drop 1/2/3 probes, not the 10x ones

EDIT: Also, by skills, u mean the prospector skills, etc.? I thought it only allows you to use higher lv finders. How does it affect your run?

I accept the challenge, i have a rookie terramaster in storage i will try some sessions for fun.

5x 100 drop in each resource will be good (i have 8 lvl lesser in survey than prospect)

i did some sessions few month ago with un Dedectonator MD-10 i will find the results in my excel sheets :)

If you only drop 2 probes / time you cannot expect to get the same return as with 10 probes / time.
It's the same like killing a lv 5 against a lvl 50 mob.

Not only do the pros skills count but any mining skills, computer skills, intell, engineering etc .... At least that is my opinion.
it is my opinion too,
will see if the % of return is the same. i think that the return will be in same proportions with a noob finder or high finder (if they are maxed). after test i will tell you if i'm right or wrong :D
 
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ihazbackup

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If you only drop 2 probes / time you cannot expect to get the same return as with 10 probes / time.
It's the same like killing a lv 5 against a lvl 50 mob.

Not only do the pros skills count but any mining skills, computer skills, intell, engineering etc .... At least that is my opinion.
Logically, it won't have the same return as normal finders, but I was asking about the hit rate. Most noob finders have around 100m depth and if we assume that a finder can detect claims from +/- 200m, then noob finder loses that 100m depth advantage from surface. I wonder if this will affect hit rate? Naturally it would, but will need statistic to back it up.

So far, I've dropped around 600 probes (ore) with noob finder and my hit rate is at 30%
 

Geronimo

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Logically, it won't have the same return as normal finders, but I was asking about the hit rate. Most noob finders have around 100m depth and if we assume that a finder can detect claims from +/- 200m, then noob finder loses that 100m depth advantage from surface. I wonder if this will affect hit rate? Naturally it would, but will need statistic to back it up.

So far, I've dropped around 600 probes (ore) with noob finder and my hit rate is at 30%
and tt return in %?
 

ihazbackup

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and tt return in %?
I have until now around 85-90% TT return

But that's because I am still researching on places that can have high hitrate, and I am not as skilled as others (lv2 pros)
 

LeelooM

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Unamped testing

Since the last mining changes, omg so many have shifted, ... my return isn't 100+% anymore but (average) 90,13% now (Dual with 10 depth enh all the time)

Including decay + cost dept enh this brings me at 87,85%
This means I will need to sell all my resources at minimum 112,15% (average) to break even!!! without counting auction fee.

After sales this brings me back to 105,53% so the margin is getting very small, but some resources keep going up up up :)
EDIT : 105,53% I get from selling in small stacks with a decent to high netto % so if you are selling in big numbers at low %...

Using amps is even getting more dangerous imo and expect the price to go up also, so I'm not using them until I get more numbers.

Not counting on multipliers cause those might change a lot but still does not mean you will be in profit. I'm keeping track of how much I'm in minus for TT return to check if a global/hof will make it up but I doubt that :p will see :)

Where HR used to be like 30-40 for ores and 25-30 for enmatters, it is now for both around 30 so another big change.

I also noticed that some timers (for ores) have changed ... not only for the rare but also for the more regular like gazz ... etc so no wonder more % is going up :p

THANK YOU MA :) A lot of new puzzles to be solved, love it :)

EDIT : if you are mining in a taxed area and/or pay % for your tools ... it will again be much harder if not impossible to make some profit.
 
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Storm Souza

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Well, I'm excited about all these changes too, but I'm unhappy too. First I think the volatility of returns has increased but it can be clearly seen that Hof's over 4 digits are more frequent in the Hall of Fame and we don't have much more miners, on the contrary many have stopped. The point that made me very sad was that MA replaced one resource in real time with another, yes I'm talking about Gazzurdite, where in the Arkadia Desert there were only 0.8% Gazzurdite, just all the resources there (Zinc, Gazz , Hebredite, Adomasite) were replaced by Lysterium and more Lysterium. I think she might want to do a spin with ores just as MA already does with Redulite. We need more Miner Logs to find out if the TT Return Tuning Multiplier around 95% is taking place in the long run and we are talking about Planetside.
 

LeelooM

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Well, I'm excited about all these changes too, but I'm unhappy too. First I think the volatility of returns has increased but it can be clearly seen that Hof's over 4 digits are more frequent in the Hall of Fame and we don't have much more miners, on the contrary many have stopped. The point that made me very sad was that MA replaced one resource in real time with another, yes I'm talking about Gazzurdite, where in the Arkadia Desert there were only 0.8% Gazzurdite, just all the resources there (Zinc, Gazz , Hebredite, Adomasite) were replaced by Lysterium and more Lysterium. I think she might want to do a spin with ores just as MA already does with Redulite. We need more Miner Logs to find out if the TT Return Tuning Multiplier around 95% is taking place in the long run and we are talking about Planetside.
Mining is very very stable now, EVERY run is between 80-90% TT return.
This might change (as MA said) because of the skills. I have 1 miner in soc, also using F-106 with lower skills that has a constant return of 78% TT. So he adjusts this by selling even smaller stacks at higher % so in the end he gets over 100% in sales

As for gazz, redu, lyst ...
I have been mining the same spots over and over again ... and I can tell you my return on those is a lot higher but I researched the spots for window mining or waves as some call it.
For redu I got 4,08% TT return. Lyst I only get 13,12% so a bit more than gazz 12,53% and belkar 26,84% return, well I'm not complaining.

EDIT : soc miner ended his run in the desert and got 8,39% gazz Same window as caly... unamped ofc cause it might be blocked

As for miner logs, it's impossible to compare for now, I'm getting lots of pm's from miners loosing peds now because of the lower TT returns. When using L tools, taxed mining, TTing stuf....

How I see it :
MA is making more profit now and I cannot disagree. You buy probes from them + pay decay and they (estimated) gain 10-20% of that.
Now it's up to the miner to cover those losses buy selling at a higher %, do some clever mining, less gambling and spend less MU's on mining tools.

As for miners that stop, that's up to them, a lot more to do in game and as a miner myself, the less miners in game, the better :)

EDIT : and believe me those hof's with big amps ... does not mean they are making profits ... as in the past, they gamble and 99% of the time they loose big time.
 
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LeelooM

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Some results from soc members :

under lvl 20 miners = 78% TT return F-106 T8
under lvl 30 miners = 79% TT return F-106 T7
under lvl 50 miners = 90% TT return F-106 T10
 

Storm Souza

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Mining is very very stable now, EVERY run is between 80-90% TT return.
This might change (as MA said) because of the skills. I have 1 miner in soc, also using F-106 with lower skills that has a constant return of 78% TT. So he adjusts this by selling even smaller stacks at higher % so in the end he gets over 100% in sales


As for gazz, redu, lyst ...
I have been mining the same spots over and over again ... and I can tell you my return on those is a lot higher but I researched the spots for window mining or waves as some call it.
For redu I got 4,08% TT return. Lyst I only get 13,12% so a bit more than gazz 12,53% and belkar 26,84% return, well I'm not complaining.

EDIT : soc miner ended his run in the desert and got 8,39% gazz Same window as caly... unamped ofc cause it might be blocked

As for miner logs, it's impossible to compare for now, I'm getting lots of pm's from miners loosing peds now because of the lower TT returns. When using L tools, taxed mining, TTing stuf....

How I see it :
MA is making more profit now and I cannot disagree. You buy probes from them + pay decay and they (estimated) gain 10-20% of that.
Now it's up to the miner to cover those losses buy selling at a higher %, do some clever mining, less gambling and spend less MU's on mining tools.

As for miners that stop, that's up to them, a lot more to do in game and as a miner myself, the less miners in game, the better :)

EDIT : and believe me those hof's with big amps ... does not mean they are making profits ... as in the past, they gamble and 99% of the time they loose big time.

Interesting to know that Gazzurdite from Ark is on the same drop level as Caly. This makes us think a lot about the limited capabilities of mining and its effect on the market causing Mkp to increase.

I believe that in the long run the runs will stabilize at least 95% of course using the right tools with their skills. But for that there will have to be multipliers that will make the runs take the 95%. That's why I mentioned the most frequent 4 digit Hof's, not because they are making more profit, but because the system is releasing more multipliers but so far I am only speculating. My biggest unamped Hof after 08/26 was 170x planetside

My runs are between 78% and 120% each, and my return is between 95 and 98% tt in long run. So I believe the volatility is higher but with a chance of multipliers to cover the difference between 78% and 95% +

Let's keep up, I'm enjoying it.
 

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Minning are stable before (95+) 26/08
Now is ClusterF. i float between 60-80% with amp (lvl5 , Dclass most cheap mu input wise)
with no amp get around 75-85%

Use highest finder(TM8 , C70, B70 and CGR) in game near rank 100 for what?

Total no respect
Atm Sitting with -15k TT LOSS in less 2 moth
Like most miner did is time to get break
 
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kingofaces

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These waves or windows definitely existed before the recent Belkar/Gazz/Redul vs. Lyst in other areas. Tough to guess what MA is doing in the background as it could be multiple things, but at least it helps out ore MU which has generally making a some areas not worth mining lately.
 

LeelooM

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Something did change after that update for sure .... not only with the lyst :p

Done several spots now, always 80-90% TT return (unamped/without multiplier), but, if I count % for sales .. I mostly get 100+% back (depending zones ofc), so I'm not focusing the TT return anymore but what I get back after sales.

When using amps, this TT return will be less since you pay more / drop if you do not get a multiplier.
Feedback from amp miners already confirmed it might drop to 60% TT return.
 
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trance

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I get realy bad returns atm. Globals get rare, MU is down, hitrate is poor, and most of my runs are minus below 80%. A lot lyst and oil is also a pain, especial if you use a DSEC 30 seeker. Atm i better make a breake, as wast my peds and kill my fun on super bad returns.
 

LeelooM

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ADDING info in the mining guide after more unamped/testing mining since the sept 2019 update.

I have been mining in more different spots a few times again and again and again

In all my runs HR AND TT returns of ores dropped a lot and this is where my losses where since my enm TT returns and HR where normal or even say equal as before the patch. In all those zones, if I would have been mining for ENM only I would have made nice profits cause all where above 100% TT return.
No results on treasure for now.

As for the multipliers, I'm getting mostly 1 multiplier / 100 drops meaning (when unamped) claim 7-8-9-10 and those do NOT make up for the TT losses.

All I can do for now if I want to keep mining dual or ores, is adjust my prices and/or wait till more MU's go up and keep stocking those.

Another thing I notice is when mining in a zone where another miner is active (I used to wait 15-30 min and then started mining again but I didn't now) my TT return NEVER dropped below 80% as it would have made a huge difference before the new patch where my TT return could even drop to 60-70%.
Due to skills, finder? depth? No idea.

EDIT : Apparently I'm getting 1 swirl = claim 13-14 every 600-700 drops but even that is not enough to make my numbers green again.
 
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trance

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It seams they play around with mining. ( Mining 2.0 ? )
In all my mining experience, i ever had some periods, where mining just got super bad for a longer time( like it is now ). If this hapen, then HR is low and claim size more small. Those periods most last for a longer time, some times weeks! Ofc, there is maybe one lucky day into the bad periode, so you get the hope it changed. :)
Now, if you dont have a big stock of peds, then you will run out of probes and need to deposite. The only thing helping in this case of long bad, is to stop mining for a longer time, if you don't have enought peds to survive that bad periode or want do a deposite.

At moment i pretty think, that they play around with mining. The lyst and oil pain, we have atm, at places where you normaly find other stuffs, is a sign of things, that they play around with mining. My problem on this, i use a lot a DSEC seeker 30, and i realy want avoid lyst and oil with that, about extracting all the time a lyst 5-7 is realy time consuming and also you get fast heavy, and it cost more extracting decay.
Why must be all around lyst and oil? There are other cheap, no MU stuffs they could drop, at least if you use a preamped finder, in zones, where normaly no lyst and oil is to find. This making the use of such finders sensless. Also it make the use of enhancers sensless, if you find lyst and oil deeper as 1km... Mining atm looks very like a messed up system and very unbalanced to the whole market.

My fun on mining is gone. There is no fun to find lyst and oil, most of the time and this with low HR and claim size. I miss the old mining days!
 

LeelooM

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It seams they play around with mining. ( Mining 2.0 ? )
In all my mining experience, i ever had some periods, where mining just got super bad for a longer time( like it is now ). If this hapen, then HR is low and claim size more small. Those periods most last for a longer time, some times weeks! Ofc, there is maybe one lucky day into the bad periode, so you get the hope it changed. :)
Now, if you dont have a big stock of peds, then you will run out of probes and need to deposite. The only thing helping in this case of long bad, is to stop mining for a longer time, if you don't have enought peds to survive that bad periode or want do a deposite.

At moment i pretty think, that they play around with mining. The lyst and oil pain, we have atm, at places where you normaly find other stuffs, is a sign of things, that they play around with mining. My problem on this, i use a lot a DSEC seeker 30, and i realy want avoid lyst and oil with that, about extracting all the time a lyst 5-7 is realy time consuming and also you get fast heavy, and it cost more extracting decay.
Why must be all around lyst and oil? There are other cheap, no MU stuffs they could drop, at least if you use a preamped finder, in zones, where normaly no lyst and oil is to find. This making the use of such finders sensless. Also it make the use of enhancers sensless, if you find lyst and oil deeper as 1km... Mining atm looks very like a messed up system and very unbalanced to the whole market.

My fun on mining is gone. There is no fun to find lyst and oil, most of the time and this with low HR and claim size. I miss the old mining days!
It really depends where you mine for the moment imo and the only place I'm getting lyst, where I didn't get it before is shinook.

All other mining is normal only ores return is less.

Overall TT return depends zones I'm mining also, in some zones I get 80-90% TT return but can make profit after sales ...

In other zones I get 85-95% TT return but even after sales I do not make profit so those I stock and prolly avoid those zones as long as MU for those resources did no go up.

If returns are lowered I do not mine with amps, cause those will give you even a lower TT return cause HR is lower. Again, some miners already told me if mining with amps, they get 60% TT return ...
 

kingofaces

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A lot lyst and oil is also a pain, especial if you use a DSEC 30 seeker.
I pretty much recommend never using a DSEC or most other pre-amped finders for enmatter. You're only getting 10 additional probes instead of 20 like you do for ore. At current prices, that's in the ballpark of paying for a 110% amp if you're just going for enmatter. If you're going for ore, it's similar in price to lower cost amps when you pencil it out, so it makes sense to just stick to ore (or treasure) with it.
 

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I'm guessing they're trying to hit the sweet spot between boring no MU grinds and something more exciting, with big hof prospects and some MU to be had, at the expense of a more stable yet lowish tt roi (so, deffinitely bigger bankroll than, say, 2-3 years ago or even end of last year).

Other than that, Leeloo, with all friendship and sympathy, your advices regarding high MU finders, amps and taxed areas are simply not correct. There are quite a few LAs which do justify some (controlled) risk in this direction.

The biggest paradigm change which I am seeing is that of very high turnover done in semi-automatic manner. I would guess they want to prevent that due to crafting market not being big enough for it, but we will see.
 

LeelooM

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I'm guessing they're trying to hit the sweet spot between boring no MU grinds and something more exciting, with big hof prospects and some MU to be had, at the expense of a more stable yet lowish tt roi (so, deffinitely bigger bankroll than, say, 2-3 years ago or even end of last year).

Other than that, Leeloo, with all friendship and sympathy, your advices regarding high MU finders, amps and taxed areas are simply not correct. There are quite a few LAs which do justify some (controlled) risk in this direction.

The biggest paradigm change which I am seeing is that of very high turnover done in semi-automatic manner. I would guess they want to prevent that due to crafting market not being big enough for it, but we will see.
High MU L finders : It is never proven that TT return of finders will be payed back (I never believed that and will never do), any MU payed is a loss for the miner.

Amps : Here again you pay MU so that is lost and as far as I see mining now, the standard TT return is 80% - 90% IF unamped (altought I managed to get 1 run over 100% TT return again today), if you go amped, your standard return will even go down to 60% TT return depending the amp used.

LA-taxed mining : means you pay from your TT return so here again losses for the miner.

This way, miners will need to stock up indeed a lot more and sell at the right time (as I always did before) but many will need to wait a lot longer as they used to or sell with losses, so need more depo's. So maybe we will see less miners in the next months/years.

Most of the high lvl amp miners will have more losses than those unamped/low amp users cause they do not wait for MU's to go up, but just sell their big stacks asap or even TT some. Losses again.

Sales : if these TT returns are going to be the standard a lot more ores will go up in % cause at 80% TT return everybody will need to sell for a lot more. This will ofc mean that crafters will need to pay more for the resources so everything will start costing more and if I see how many amps (not only amps) are sold / week or / month ... go figure it out...

This is how I see if.
Correct me if I'm wrong that it is gonna be a lot easier to loose peds as a miner than to gain some :) for sure if you do not like counting.

And hoping that you get a biggy while mining ... well you can always hope ofc ... :lolup:

I'm just telling you what the numbers on my excel files tell me
 

Kerham

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High MU L finders : It is never proven that TT return of finders will be payed back (I never believed that and will never do), any MU payed is a loss for the miner.
Decay of finder being considered not recuperated into claims,
then,

DSEC30 unamped, at 160%, in actual usage costs 105-106%.
All available finders, be them L or UL, costs between 100,8% and 106%. Old style MD- finders cost at the lower scale but they have no depth to speak of, F105 and F106 are roughly 102% (like F212 and EFS at circa 120%) but they have average depth. For deep UL finders such as F106 tiered up you need to stick into the finder at least 4k ped (which otherwise could be circulated with a cheap L) and on top of that use enhancers to bring your average cost to 106-107% if I am not mistaken. Which is pretty much the same cost as Terra Masters at circa 115%, just that the latter require skill.

Even MILF, if you buy it at 180%, in actual usage is 102,8% something.

So in effect you're talking about a marginal difference, per tier of depth, and tradeoffs which are highly debatable (such as sticking bankroll into finder).

And that is unamped. When you amp, particularly with Lvl3, 5 and D-Class, high depth and preamped finders are cheaper to use per ped spent than unamped TerraMaster or unamped F106 enhanced.

As one can easily see, in the actual reality of the entropian miner, each finder and class of amplification has its role and meaning.

Your claim would be correct only if the finder decay would be recovered into mining finds, something which neither me have seen to date no proof of.

Amps : Here again you pay MU so that is lost and as far as I see mining now, the standard TT return is 80% - 90% IF unamped (altought I managed to get 1 run over 100% TT return again today), if you go amped, your standard return will even go down to 60% TT return depending the amp used.
Here is a worthy discussion about volatility per tier of amplification, but then again putting 4k into a F-106 ul vs amping F212 with lvl5 is not by any measure superior. Those k can carry one a very long way through various waves of tt return volatility and in correct areas can provide measurable constant 110% return after MU, as opposed to having to sell 10 ingots of blau at a time.

LA-taxed mining : means you pay from your TT return so here again losses for the miner.
There are no areas ingame which could possibly come close to Medusa or New Switzerland LAs (obviously considering wave/window mining). I would pay hands down 4-5% LA tax to hit azure instead of ares, for example. Is simply not such a clear-cut claim. Particularly on Calypso, the mining fields composition and mobs population make easily LAs a go-to choice in good conditions.

Just how many miners do you think fit into untaxed NE Shinook for lyst, gazz, belk and redulite? Not mentioning that it was for years the case that gazz was not dropping at Shinook, and there was only belk at 101% and sometimes redu, arguable if often enough. And also not mentioning that for redu best practice, particularly in the case of window mining, is d-class/lvl8 on high depth Terra, because it is not a capped ore like rugaritz, and not at all unamped/low amped. Which would indeed be the better choice if MA's choice of droprate control wouldn't be wavy.

Even indoor can have its place, even with amps. It is not so much about chasing hofs, that is the bonus pleasure, in reality it's about MU/time. While I am not in this position and I have no interest into it, I totally understand why Gilowska, Poprygayka, Delharrea or Lindqvist (and I misspelled all of them for sure) would play the way they do or did.

It is not at all the case for "don't do that", rather "be wary of that actually means". And no, unamped is not at all, by any measure, the golden goose of safety. With appropiate budget, I've seen way way better times and avg return with lvl2/3/5 than unamped, each with its own place and target. Speaking of excels, at 150k+ I am at 96,9% (including finders and excavators as not recuperated cost) tt roi (not including my 17k tower), most of it amped lvl2-5, with occasional D-Class runs. My worst volatility runs have been the too short ones (100 drops or so), nomatter if amped or unamped.
 

LeelooM

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Here is a worthy discussion about volatility per tier of amplification, but then again putting 4k into a F-106 ul vs amping F212 with lvl5 is not by any measure superior. Those k can carry one a very long way through various waves of tt return volatility and in correct areas can provide measurable constant 110% return after MU, as opposed to having to sell 10 ingots of blau at a time.
That last T10 costed around 1,5K I got that back with mining withing 9 days after tiering up. ^^
All other tiering was payed off very fast so was worth it. That finder pays for itself. The hardcore miners in soc all have a tiered F-106 and they never regretted it 1 minute and keep tiering it up.

In some cases I can just say very nice done, but that TT return is before the latest patch and not now.
Before I was getting like 116-124% TT return (when using amp2/5) easy so very fun mining and cheap selling.

What I see mostly :
TT return 80-90%% minus LA tax, finder MU, decays will result very soon to 75-85% TT return if not lowered by amps. That is gonna hurt and I already see a lot of miners saying I quit mining.
But we all have another way of mining, those that we like the most and get us the most profit.

I just do not understand why people go taxed (except for the owners) for resources that can be mined untaxed also. Same for the ark moon deeds... maybe some go there for some hunting missions, but why would a miner go there.

As for shinook, there are other spots to get belk/redu also and I never meet any 1 there :)

Will see what the future brings, pls keep us posted

Who's gonna be the big winner?
MA ofcourse :) More depo's (for stocking/losses) + more fee to pay since ores are going up in prices.
 

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There is no such way as "the one true correct way". That's what I am disputing. My ROI numbers are for 2017 & 2018, this year barely saw some 10k turnover which is indeed at 90%, the difference is visible, but for the moment I got this fixation on hunting. I still don't see the reduced average ROI as an argument against amping, but about bankroll and such.

About where should miners go and what should pay and not and why, I will refrain from comments, I see EU as pvp.
 

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hypnotica TRANCE blain
I pretty much recommend never using a DSEC or most other pre-amped finders for enmatter. .
I tried some only ore runs with Dsec30 and all of those runs was more bad, as if i do both together. But im pretty sure it have to do with the places i always visite and mine there, no matter what finder i use. I just love to visite in a turnus all my good knowing places. Most of this places i visite are nice to use both.

I only do ores, if i run indoor with bigger amps up, but that hapen rarly, about i most don't use amps and go indoor. (about enmatter, i find out, that you can find a lot of devils tal with Dsec30 and also nice for typo and cav sap)
 

kingofaces

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I only do ores, if i run indoor with bigger amps up, but that hapen rarly, about i most don't use amps and go indoor. (about enmatter, i find out, that you can find a lot of devils tal with Dsec30 and also nice for typo and cav sap)
While I agree depth is good for those, you'll pay less MU getting a similar depth regular finder and buying a similar sized amp. I'm at work so I can't check, but enmatter "amp-equivalent" MU on a DSEC 30 was around 110% if I recall correctly.
 

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While I agree depth is good for those, you'll pay less MU getting a similar depth regular finder and buying a similar sized amp. I'm at work so I can't check, but enmatter "amp-equivalent" MU on a DSEC 30 was around 110% if I recall correctly.
For comparable depth you need to use terra, which amplified with lvl2 would be more expensive, circa 107% for solo enm.

Asuming finder decay is not recovered into finds,
asuming Dsec 30 at 160%,
then

Dsec 30 "unamped" enmatter solo is 106,3%
Dsec 30 "unamped" ores solo is 103,2%
Dsec 30 "unamped" double-drop is 104,3%

and then trends with the amp toward the MU of the amp, probably D-Class being the best pick from this pov.

What is absolutely fantastic about Dsec30 (and any other preamped finder for that matter, to be checked per MU) is that you need to stick in a whooping +-217 peds to gain access to effective 3,3k drops amped lvl3 and lvl2-equivalent.

Whereas buying amps (from the begining so to say) for equivalent run would mean circa 2,2k stuck in tt of the amps.

For this advantage you "pay" effectively something like 5-10 peds per finder, compared to an ideal finder, but compared to Terra series you actually save peds or, at worst, stay even.
 

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What is absolutely fantastic about Dsec30 (and any other preamped finder for that matter, to be checked per MU) is that you need to stick in a whooping +-217 peds to gain access to effective 3,3k drops amped lvl3 and lvl2-equivalent.

Whereas buying amps (from the begining so to say) for equivalent run would mean circa 2,2k stuck in tt of the amps.

For this advantage you "pay" effectively something like 5-10 peds per finder, compared to an ideal finder, but compared to Terra series you actually save peds or, at worst, stay even.
I love the math behind this, while an additional boost could be easily gained with level 8 amps for 106% markup. Sadly it is additive to the claim size instead of multiplicative ;)
 

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For comparable depth you need to use terra, which amplified with lvl2 would be more expensive, circa 107% for solo enm.

Asuming finder decay is not recovered into finds,
asuming Dsec 30 at 160%,
then

Dsec 30 "unamped" enmatter solo is 106,3%
Dsec 30 "unamped" ores solo is 103,2%
Dsec 30 "unamped" double-drop is 104,3%

and then trends with the amp toward the MU of the amp, probably D-Class being the best pick from this pov.

What is absolutely fantastic about Dsec30 (and any other preamped finder for that matter, to be checked per MU) is that you need to stick in a whooping +-217 peds to gain access to effective 3,3k drops amped lvl3 and lvl2-equivalent.

Whereas buying amps (from the begining so to say) for equivalent run would mean circa 2,2k stuck in tt of the amps.

For this advantage you "pay" effectively something like 5-10 peds per finder, compared to an ideal finder, but compared to Terra series you actually save peds or, at worst, stay even.
Edit: I deleted my old post because of double checking the calculations.

It looks like the differences between your calculations and mine were partly because you included the base probes in the total TT per drop calculation. To make it an amp equivalent MU, you need to subtract out those 20 probes for ore, 10 for enmatter, etc. Otherwise, it would be like saying MU is 102% on a 103% MU amp because you included the finder's base 20 probes for ores. The TT for how you determine MU should be based on what you are adding rather than total probes to compared to actual amp MU. It would be possible to get even more precise by subtracting out a base finder's decay + MU, but I'd have to spend a little time double checking how that would work.

If I don't include the DSEC 30 finder decay (just finder MU), the MU for enmatter is 104.90%, and 102.45% for ore. If I do include the decay as well as MU, it becomes 106.33% for ore and 112.67% for enmatter.

In my old calculations before the edit, I didn't include finder decay in the MU because I was trying to partition finder decay compared to other regular finders for other comparisons (pre-amped finders make this really tricky). That's what tripped me up for a bit trying to remember why I did it that way. Including finder decay is more realistic though for the purposes of this conversation.
 
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Kerham

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To make it an amp equivalent MU
It is not as much as an amp-equivalent MU, but a comparison between finders. It is not fair to count only the amplification, because MU is also paid for base-cost. Dsec30's base tt decay is 3.96. If you'd look only at the amplification, then is only fair to divie Dsec's decay by 2, and then you'd have a "base, unamped" decay of 1.98 for a depth of 820m. There exists no such thing ingame, even customized 213 has more decay.

So if I compare two finders, if I compare three finders, six of them even, four amped and two unamped or one preamped, two amped and three unamped, whatever combination I might use, the only valid approach is to calculate overall cost per overall TT turnover (and here with own personal ideology upon wether tt finder is turnover or tax).

Coming back to our discussion about the tt of the finder and the importance of the hypothesis (parallel to the actual posibility of measurement):

Presume F212(L) unamped, bought from AH at 120%. Decay 1,343 pec.

- if tt of finder is ignored:

per 100 ped mined enmatter, 200 drops, we would care only for 53 PEC, namely MU finder spent

- if tt of finder is considered a cost, not reimbursed in finds:

per 100 ped enmatter, 200 drops, we would care for 3,22 PED.

The main difference between these hypothesis, and where is the core of me disagreeing with tt of finder being a minor nuissance, is the opportunity of amplification. In the "don't care" hypothesis, it adds 2-3% to necessary MU. In the "it's all cost to me" hypothesis, it adds 1-1,4% to necessary MU. In the first hypothesis you can mine wherever. In the second one, you have to be very cautious where you step and what choices you make, because small% add up very fast, particularly (!) on lowest costly activities in absolute values (e.g. unamped enm).
 
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kingofaces

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It is not as much as an amp-equivalent MU, but a comparison between finders.
The important thing is not making apples to oranges comparisons. The way I showed is one way of doing that so you can convert to amp equivalent MU. It depends what you are trying to compare if you put finder decay into that MU calculation because the other aspect is looking at total finder decay in terms of depth too. In my case, I look at F-106 plus enhancer decay because that's normally to cheapest way to get to depth. If you're using the calculations I was, you'd need to pick a baseline unamped finder to subtract out for comparison. Not everyone is going to use the same finder though, which is why I didn't get into that very much, but what you're paying for depth is difficult to combine with pre-amped costs while really making sense of both at once.

On a side note, once you get past about 700m depth, there's not really a reason to use the other L unamped finders with really high decay (enhanced UL finders are cheaper if you want the few remaining resources not available to you at that point), so that's why I partition a rough baseline finder and the rest goes into "amp" MU rather than an even split.

The other conversion I mentioned a bit is what you are doing, but you can't compare that to amp MU directly either, which is what had been coming up before. If you're just doing a simple calculation like (Finderdecay*MU+Probecost)/Probecost, you need to do that to your base finder + amp as well to convert it correctly. What people cannot do is do that calculation only for the pre-amped finder and then say compare it to a 103.5% amp directly without considering the base finder. Either approach works depending on what exactly you are trying to compare, but it needs to be consistent is all.
 
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