Legal to have Lottos or other drawings in game...?

Grower

Prowler
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Posts
1,055
Society
The Ministry
Avatar Name
grower
People have tried genuine lotteries on several occasions, and have been shut down by MA pretty quickly. Search for Lootto on this forum and you should find one example.

Events with random drawings like this one however have always been allowed, so the position is quite clear.

The chances of winning the prizes in this event are not purely determined by luck, they are also based on participation and skill - i.e. you actually have to do something in order to to win, you don't just buy a ticket. That is what makes the difference.

Again, including a random element does not make it a lottery.

no cause when he doesnt make enough money on taxes (ticket fees) he will change the prizes or remove them all together.

this brings me to my 50% thing governments/lotteries do.

this is set so that he can make loads of money and give out a smaller percentage in prize when he doesnt make the money he wanted to make.

fuck the random element, it has to be there for him to be able to pull in taxes otherwise he cant make 1pec.
 

Chrome

Elite
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Posts
2,710
Location
Eastern USA
Society
Kaos
Avatar Name
Mono Chrome Monochrome
How is getting the most globals not luck based? What element of skill determines that you will global?
Information, preparation, execution, budget...

Don't forget the "Frequent Global" skill...

You DO have the "Frequent Global" skill on your avatar skill list, DON'T YOU?!?!? :rolleyes:
 

MachineLife

Young
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Posts
24
not trying to piss on anyones parade... I think the prizes are fantastic... and looks like a great event... just wanted to get some color on this... beacuse i will be participating...
So is the BO price of your ava still valid? Or is MA paying you off so the #2 hunter dosent leave the game lol
 

Cerberus

Alpha
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Posts
514
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Thomas Skandis Stale
Take any group of players into any LA on a "most globals" setting, and only one will win. They all hunt the same maturity over the same period. How does skill determine the winner? Why will the winner have many more globals than the lowest placed participant?
1) The event is 4 months long
2) The event incorporates 7 LAs, each with several maturities
3) Any player is free to use any weapon as they so desire
4) Any player may input as much time as he desires

Your hypothetical example is fine, but completely irrelevant to this thread.
 

Shadowsong

Stalker
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Posts
1,554
Location
South Africa
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Krystal Shadowsong Nova
1) The event is 4 months long
2) The event incorporates 7 LAs, each with several maturities
3) Any player is free to use any weapon as they so desire
4) Any player may input as much time as he desires

Your hypothetical example is fine, but completely irrelevant to this thread.
Thread is about the issue of legality wrt "lottos or other drawings", which led to the question of "what is luck based". My response was to the bold assertion that "most globals" is skill based. Seems germane to me, but I guess opinions differ.

Certainly, the format of the event that gave rise to this thread is as you state in the above quote. I am not making any judgement on that event, simply trying to determine how the alternative of "most globals" would be any less luck based.
 

Joat

Elite
Joined
Oct 30, 2005
Posts
4,096
Society
M.I.S
It is not a lottery. Randomness and gambling are not the same thing. I've done events like this on several occasions in the past, as have many others, and it's been fine.

Not sure why it even matters to you Joker, since you're quitting anyway :rolleyes:
Actually, they could be. The degree of randomness is one part that determine if it is
classified as lottery in sweden.
 

Menace

Elite
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Posts
3,274
Location
Niagara Falls, Canada
Society
SECRET
Avatar Name
Rob Menace Klok
Joker it shouldn't really matter to you anyway seeing's you're selling out and leaving...... Unless of course your recent threads were just you playing the "I'm leaving" card in hopes of profitable returns via MA increasing your loot multipliers..... Though I doubt that would be the case seeings you made enough money off your previous avatar (whether it was via game mechanics or other means......)

Menace
 

sakuraqueen

Alpha
Joined
May 24, 2008
Posts
564
Location
eudoria
Society
Starfleet Command
Avatar Name
Sakura SEXY Queen
take it or leave it
 

Joker

Marauder
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
5,592
Society
BAHQ
Joker it shouldn't really matter to you anyway seeing's you're selling out and leaving......

Menace
as said many times...

I am taking a 2 month on the 2nd of May...
If I do not get buyout...I will sell to the highest bidder when I come back if loot hasnt improved...


As i said the first sale thread I will give it 2 weeks...
So this event does matter since I will be hunting around for 2 weeks :)

But lets try to stay on topic
and not make it about me... since people dont like that...
 
Last edited:

Centech

Elite
Joined
May 30, 2006
Posts
4,804
Location
Desolation Row
Society
BAHQ4LIFE!!!
Avatar Name
Jason Centech Tanner
What a bunch of hypocrites.. if you are all so against gambling uninstall EU right now and never look back.

As for the lottery bit.. he is obviously just using the lottery as an independent random number generator that is public. He could just as easily say he'll pick a number out of a hat but then 43254325 people would cry when they think it wasn't fair.
 

3-J

Prowler
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Posts
1,232
Location
West Coast, USA
Avatar Name
Benevolent 3J Afterdark
only illegal, or against the eula, if people are buying tickets to enter the drawing.

there is a big difference between USING lottery numbers to choose a winner and selling lottery tickets then choosing a winner.
 

Artrat

Prowler
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Posts
1,363
Location
Doha, Qatar
Society
Antipodean Army
Avatar Name
Jin Artrat Mugen
only illegal, or against the eula, if people are buying tickets to enter the drawing.
Yea, I think this is the key difference here. It's like a cafe owner giving customers free tickets for a raffle with every cup of coffee they buy.

Under UK laws you do not need a gambling permit to run prize competitions and free draws. It is still arguably gambling, but I don't think any authorities (MA or otherwise) would really care.

Think of it as a random way of selecting a customer loyalty prize.
 

Kirre

Young
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Posts
21
Location
Sweden
Society
Honest Entropians
Why bother? He seems to be above the rules anyhow.
 

DaisyColdFinger

Stalker
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Posts
1,861
Location
Suid Afrika & Verenigde Koninkrijk
Society
Swapped EU for Poker ;)
Always wanted to give this a go :

Predict the next global or HOF Ped count (in soc on count down, like picking lotto numbers :D)

Wasnt sure how Legal it would have been though :)
 

Ace Flyster

Elite
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Posts
4,975
Location
England, London
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Dave Ace Flyster
Yea, I think this is the key difference here. It's like a cafe owner giving customers free tickets for a raffle with every cup of coffee they buy.

Under UK laws you do not need a gambling permit to run prize competitions and free draws. It is still arguably gambling, but I don't think any authorities (MA or otherwise) would really care.

Think of it as a random way of selecting a customer loyalty prize.
Well said, everyone needs to re-read this

+rep

Rgds

Ace
 
Joined
May 20, 2007
Posts
9,486
Location
England
Society
Guess Who
Avatar Name
George Ace Skywalker
Yea, I think this is the key difference here. It's like a cafe owner giving customers free tickets for a raffle with every cup of coffee they buy.

Under UK laws you do not need a gambling permit to run prize competitions and free draws. It is still arguably gambling, but I don't think any authorities (MA or otherwise) would really care.

Think of it as a random way of selecting a customer loyalty prize.
It is a random way of selecting and like you said it is gambling precisely because of that. UK law is not important here but swedish law and I think it's probably illegal under swedish law. I don't know anything about swedish law though.

I think in second life they had to ban all forms of gambling even selections. MindArk would be wise to adhere to the law and disallow this type of event rather than risk an expensive law suit.
 

KijkkiJikki

Stalker
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Posts
1,601
Location
Australia
Society
Dark Knights
Avatar Name
Kikki KJ Jikki
This is an issue for Akoz and MA and no one else. Everyone else just needs to decide whether to compete.

Too much drama folks.
 

Jimmy B

Indioni Jones
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Posts
12,256
Location
UK
Society
Skillin' Villains
Avatar Name
Oni
I don't agree, globalling can be seen as buying a ticket for x ped tax
I think the crucial difference between this event and creating a PED lottery (where people pay PED directly to enter a lottery with PED/item prizes) is that hunting on LAs is a normal feature of EU. In this case you get an additional chance of a prize beyond your normal loot. Essentially the LA owner is giving back some of his revenue in a randomised manner, but win or lose you still get all the normal loot you'd get.
 

Ace Flyster

Elite
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Posts
4,975
Location
England, London
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Dave Ace Flyster
It is a random way of selecting and like you said it is gambling precisely because of that. UK law is not important here but swedish law and I think it's probably illegal under swedish law. I don't know anything about swedish law though.

I think in second life they had to ban all forms of gambling even selections. MindArk would be wise to adhere to the law and disallow this type of event rather than risk an expensive law suit.
Well that would be the crusp of it, if under swedish law you are not allowed to pick a winner (random or not) to win a free prize. Then yes it is gambling, otherwise it is not? Or am i miss reading what you wrote? ;)

Rgds

Ace
 
Joined
May 20, 2007
Posts
9,486
Location
England
Society
Guess Who
Avatar Name
George Ace Skywalker
Well that would be the crusp of it, if under swedish law you are not allowed to pick a winner (random or not) to win a free prize. Then yes it is gambling, otherwise it is not? Or am i miss reading what you wrote? ;)

Rgds

Ace
Yes your missing the point. Essentially the selection method used is random and therefore equates to gambling.

I would have thought everyone knows this but somehow try to justify it.
 

Joat

Elite
Joined
Oct 30, 2005
Posts
4,096
Society
M.I.S
Lets make it "easier" for some, this what Gaming Board for Sweden says
(the translation is done with google translate, far from perfect, but I don't have the time to
correct it all atm :D):



Vad är skillnaden mellan en tävling och ett lotteri?

Det kan ibland vara svårt att avgöra om ett arrangemang är ett lotteri eller en tävling. Huvudregeln är att ett arrangemang som avgörs av ett slumpmoment är ett lotteri. Ett arrangemang som avgörs av ett prestationsmoment (t.ex. skriva en slogan, svara på kunskapsfrågor) är en tävling. I vissa fall kan det i ett arrangemang ingå såväl lotteri- som tävlingsmoment.

För att avgöra huruvida det är fråga om ett lotteri eller en tävling behöver man se till hur de olika graderna av slump och prestation förhåller sig till varandra. Enligt praxis är ett arrangemang totalt sett att anse som ett lotteri om prestationsmomentet föregår slumpmomentet. Vidare omfattas inte tävlingar av lotterilagens regler och därför ingår de inte heller i Lotteriinspektionens tillstånds- och tillsynsområde. Tävlingar är alltså inte en tillståndspliktig verksamhet.
...........................

What is the difference between a contest and a raffle?

It can sometimes be difficult to determine whether an arrangement is a lottery or a contest. The general rule is that an arrangement that is determined by a random element is a lottery. An arrangement as determined by a performance elements (eg, write a slogan, answer quizzes) is a competition. In some cases it may be included in an arrangement both lottery as well as
competition moment.

To determine whether the case of a lottery or a contest you need to see how the different degrees of randomness and performance relate to one another. In practice, an arrangement as a whole to be regarded as a lottery whether the performance element precedes random moment. Included here are not contests of the Lotteries Act's rules and therefore they should not be in the Gaming Board's licensing and regulatory area. Contest is not a licensable activity.
 

Jimmy B

Indioni Jones
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Posts
12,256
Location
UK
Society
Skillin' Villains
Avatar Name
Oni
Yes your missing the point. Essentially the selection method used is random and therefore equates to gambling.

I would have thought everyone knows this but somehow try to justify it.
Why?

If you pay nothing to enter a random draw, is it gambling? Not really, you're not risking anything.
If you hunt in a taxed LA is it gambling? If yes, then this thread is moot anyway. If no, then this event is just hunting in a taxed LA like normal, but with the possibility of extra return for no extra cost.
 

Kazanori

Old Alpha
Joined
May 19, 2007
Posts
702
Location
Adelaide, South Australia
Society
Guess Who
Avatar Name
Sarah Kazanori Louise
Ingame you have highest single loot event... nuff said

gg
 
Joined
May 20, 2007
Posts
9,486
Location
England
Society
Guess Who
Avatar Name
George Ace Skywalker
Why?

If you pay nothing to enter a random draw, is it gambling? Not really, you're not risking anything.
Yes it's gambling regardless of how much you pay or don't pay because you have no control over the outcome. The outcome is purely random.


If you hunt in a taxed LA is it gambling?
No because you have control over the outcome. The outcome is not random instead it's dependent on your skills, equipment, location, mob, time etc
 
Joined
May 20, 2007
Posts
9,486
Location
England
Society
Guess Who
Avatar Name
George Ace Skywalker
Ingame you have highest single loot event... nuff said

gg
The outcome of which is not random but instead you have a lot of influence over it's outcome. The fact we may not understand how it works is different from having an outcome which is purely based on a random factor.
 

Aeris_is_back

Stalker
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Posts
2,257
Location
Edmonton Eh
Society
My FL
Avatar Name
Darcy Aeris Wood : was Darcy Aeris is Back Wood
we have laws concerning such things here "canada" some how companies found a way around it all by requiring winners to answer a "skill testing question" and allowing people to participate for free like if you give out entry forms with a case of beer you also have to allow people another free way to enter. little more to it then that but I wont expand on it.
 

Jimmy B

Indioni Jones
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Posts
12,256
Location
UK
Society
Skillin' Villains
Avatar Name
Oni
If you pay nothing to enter a random draw, is it gambling? Not really, you're not risking anything.
Yes it's gambling regardless of how much you pay or don't pay because you have no control over the outcome. The outcome is purely random.
Can't agree with that. To gamble you must risk something.
 

Zacariaz

Elite
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Posts
2,705
Location
Denmark
Society
United Talents
Avatar Name
Marie T'pol
I'm sad to say that today the definition of a gamble isn't too clear, however I do believe that the original intent of the concept was to risk the loss of something of value, be it material or not.

Thus I conclude that any contest in which there is no wager, cannot within reason be defined as a gamble.

I realize that I have provided no actual proof of my personal opinion being correct in it's entirety, but if I had the time and wanted to make the effort, I'm fairly certain that I could make a pretty convincing argument.

That being said, the law is the law, be it within reason or not.


Best regards.
 

mrproper

Forum Beaver
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Posts
6,274
Location
Romania
Society
Entropia Directory
Avatar Name
Andone mrproper Andrei


To determine whether the case of a lottery or a contest you need to see how the different degrees of randomness and performance relate to one another. In practice, an arrangement as a whole to be regarded as a lottery whether the performance element precedes random moment. Included here are not contests of the Lotteries Act's rules and therefore they should not be in the Gaming Board's licensing and regulatory area. Contest is not a licensable activity.
More globals, more chances to win. More globals is not a case of randomness but performance. Of course you can win with a single global. Consider global posting or image postings as samples of qualifications to win the contest by random sampling.

Simply put, Akoz is going to pick one participant at random (to give equal chances) from his list. He will then confirm this participant is entitled to winning by making sure the participant answers a certain criteria. That criteria is the ability to kill a mob and obtain a certain loot value, which requires ability first, luck second. Just like answering a qualification question, you need ability first, luck second. You could luck in on a question, but having the ability or knowledge guarantees success.

So Akoz can have a contest where he picks a participant from the registered list, and check to see if he has a posted global. Thus this is a contest in this interpretation. The method of choosing the first participant to qualify is not relevant. The fact that all and any participants qualify for the prize once chosen is not relevant.
 

Joat

Elite
Joined
Oct 30, 2005
Posts
4,096
Society
M.I.S
Can't agree with that. To gamble you must risk something.
Well, this is what the law says about it:

1.1 Vad säger lagen?
De regler som finns för lotterier återfinns i lotterilagen (1994:1000). Med lotteri avses en verksamhet där en eller flera deltagare, med eller utan insats, vinner något som har ett högre värde än vad var och en av de övriga deltagarna kan få (3 § lotterilagen).
Så även om du inte betalt någon insats för att vara med så kan det vara ett lotteri om du får möjlighet att vinna något mer än någon annan. För den som anordnar lotteriet, spelar det ingen roll om det finns ett vinstsyfte eller inte med anordnandet för att det ska anses vara ett lotteri.
.................
1.1 What does the law say?
The rules are for lotteries found in the Lottery Act (1994:1000). With the lottery means an establishment where one or more participants, with or without stakes, win something with a higher value than each of the other participants can get (3 § Lotteries Act).
So even if you do not charge any effort to be with, it might be a lottery if you get a chance to win more than anyone else. For the organizers of the lottery, it does not matter if there is a profit or not the organization for it to be considered a lottery.
 
Top