List of official statments pertaining to loot post 2.0

Ferial

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Since i've been getting questions in-game requesting sources for statements I've made it appears as though many players have missed these statements. Figured I´d save them in a post so I can just link this post instead of having to find the posts each time, as well as inform anyone on PCF who might have missed them aswell.

Regarding efficiency and/or DPP
The efficiency stat on items are not directly tied to it's DPP. All existing items had their efficiency set based on their current DPP in order to keep their relative "economy" compared to each other in place. The IMK2 was by far the most economic/high DPP weapon in the game and therefore now has the highest efficiency, the Swine Deluxe was among the least economic/lowest DPP weapons and therefore now has among the lowest efficiency.

The efficiency does not have to be proportional to the DPP of the item but currently they usually are. There are however a couple of exceptions to this such as scopes which have a DPP of 0 (as they do no damage) but still have a fairly high efficiency stat.

There also seems to still be a lot of confusion in regards to what "Efficiency" does. Efficiency has a direct effect on the overall TT return, it does not directly affect loot composition.
No, DPP and Efficiency are not the same thing. DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP. Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.
Regarding personal loot pools.
No, there still is no personal loot pool.
Regarding turnover and/or return stabilization
The amount of turnover isn't very relevant to the average return or volatility in return for any individual player. To reach a stable average return it's really the amount of loot instances or creatures killed that matters. As an example, if a player kills 2 Sand Kings spending about 5000 PED to do so the expected loot returned on those 2 kills can vary greatly. If instead killing 200,000 Punies also about 5000 PED the expected loot return is going to be very close to the expected average of 96%+ seen in the 2017 group. A more realistic example of this is perhaps spending 300 PED hunting Proterons vs spending 300 PED hunting small Argonauts where the Argonaut hunt will usually yield similar results and the Proteron hunt results can be all over the place since the loot events are so few.
The reason turnover is chosen as the metric to present these statistics is because number of kills doesn't really say much about which level of players are in which category since anyone can kill a large number of mobs if they are small enough.

Turnover or PED "Cycled" is all PED decayed/destroyed/spent on killing a creature, this means decay for weapons, armor, ammo, healing, attachments etc. It has nothing to do with deposits, trade terminals or repair terminals etc.
Regarding “defensive” decay returns.
Most of the decay from healing and using armor is now compensated for in the loot of the mob. On top of this the actual amount of decay to the armor per damage absorbed was reduced greatly. Overall the cost for healing and armor usage is less than 5% of what it used to be.
Regarding paid markup returned in loot
The loot system never accounts for markup. Not on markup spent on things like enhancers or limited weapons, nor on markup gained from loot such as oils, items and ESI etc, markup values are just transactions between players.
Regarding taxes on LAs
Land areas simply take a cut based on the set tax amount from each loot from creatures spawned in the area or mining claims found in the area.
Regarding unmaxed item usage
There is no separate added "punishment" for not using a maxed weapon. The downside of using non-maxed weapons is still just a consequence of not doing the full damage potential and missing a few extra shots.

Using weapons that you do not have maxed skills for now has a considerably smaller negative impact on the "loot value" than it did in the past. Not dealing the full potential damage with each shot used to negatively affect the "loot value" returns greatly but now primarily negatively affect the "loot composition". For the "skill misses" (not evades) these still do affect your "loot value" returns negatively as they did in the past.

However as stated in the Dev notes #11
"A special hunting bonus pool will be implemented that will distribute funds from various sources, including skill misses, PVP, marketing and special events, which will improve overall loot returns for all participants." So the decay and ammo usage generated by missed attacks can sometimes find its way back to you.

With that said MindArk still always recommend using maxed out equipment for better results but the downside to not doing so is now smaller than before.

Regarding various “tinfoil” arguments.
Repairing simply moves PED from one place to another much like buying/selling things from the TT, neither has an effect on loot or MindArk revenues.
TLDR;

Efficiency has a direct impact on your loot returns. DPP has an impact on your loot composition. Paid markup is not returned in loot. Most of your defensive costs are returned in loot, not all. Using unmaxed weapons isn´t as expensive as it used to be, but is still not great. LAs take cut from loot instance, like almost everyone expected.

TLDRTLDR:
Get efficiency, get DPP. Limit defensive costs. Limit MU spent, Maximize MU gained. Don´t hunt in taxed areas unless the MU gained offsets the tax. Loot many mobs. (My interpretation)

If you have any more of these, feel free to post them and I'll add them
 

Ferial

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Reserved in case other one fills up somehow
 

mastermesh

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Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0

https://www.entropiauniverse.com/bulletin/buzz/2017/06/08/Developer-Notes--11---Loot-2.0.xml
Later this month, MindArk will be releasing a special Loot 2.0 Version Update that will overhaul the way in which hunting loot is calculated and distributed. Many of the features and systems added over the past few years have gradually led to this update, which will significantly improve overall loot returns for the vast majority (upwards of 98%) of participants.

The information in this Developer Notes article is intended to inform participants of the upcoming changes and to gather initial impressions and feedback to help ensure a smooth implementation of this exciting update. Please bear in mind that the changes described below are still being finalized and tested, so some specific details may be changed upon release, while other changes may require additional refinement or testing and therefore may not appear in the initial Loot 2.0 release, but instead in subsequent patches or Version Updates.

Loot Changes

Loot calculations will be optimized and improved to better factor in the various costs associated with hunting activity, including: healing, ammo consumption, buffs, tool and armor deterioration, attachments, and more.
A special hunting bonus pool will be implemented that will distribute funds from various sources, including skill misses, PVP, marketing and special events, which will improve overall loot returns for all participants.
A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe.
Avatar skills will play a role in loot calculations and this role will be expanded in future Version Updates. Imagine new professions that offer hunting specialization opportunities and a way to incrementally increase net loot returns for dedicated and active hunters.
MindArk has been monitoring the community discussions concerning so-called 'loot waves' and will implement changes in the Loot 2.0 and subsequent Version Updates that will address this issue by improving the distribution of resources and items, with the goal of ensuring that loot opportunities are more interesting, dynamic and fair for all participants
Ammunition will be removed from hunting loot. This change has been requested by many participants over the years and will assist participants in more accurately tracking their results.
Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors. This system is intended to reward game knowledge, which has traditionally been an important and unique aspect of success in Entropia Universe, and to provide opportunities for participants to improve their loot returns via experimentation, optimization and specialization.
Also in the Loot 2.0 Version Update will be a range of improvements to various other systems with an eye toward lowering costs and increasing enjoyment for all Entropians. An example of such are the following planned changes to armor:

Armor Changes

Armor now decays significantly less per point of damage absorbed.
Armor no longer has a minimum decay based on total protection, it will now always decay proportionally to the amount of damage absorbed.
Armor can now absorb all incoming damage down to a minimum of 0.1 point of damage taken, instead of the previous 1.0 points of damage.
Armor and armor platings now decay independently based on the amount of damage they each actually absorb, rather than both decaying as if absorbing the full amount of received damage.
Armor decay is now linear per point of damage absorbed, rather than increasing in cost per damage absorbed.
A profession level requirement will be introduced for non-(L) armors. Meeting the required level results in the armor offering full protection at all condition values. If the profession requirement is not met, armor works as before, with protection decreasing relative to condition.
Our design and development teams have been working very hard on these important changes for many months now, and MindArk looks forward to incorporating valuable feedback from our wonderful and passionate community leading up to the release of Loot 2.0!
My Note: Professional level for armor thing still not implemented yet...
 

mastermesh

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Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up

https://www.entropiauniverse.com/bu.../Developer-Notes--12---Loot-2.0-Follow-Up.xml
Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up
This installment of Developer Notes attempts to clear up some of the questions and misconceptions related to the Version Update 15.15.0 - Loot 2.0.

Economy Parameter (soon to be renamed Efficiency)

One of the most misunderstood features of Loot 2.0 was the introduction of the Economy parameter and its effect on loot calculations. Based on feedback received via support cases and our monitoring of forum discussions, it appears that one cause of confusion is the use of the term ‘Economy’ for this parameter. As such, the Economy parameter will be renamed to Efficiency in the upcoming patch, which more accurately captures the effect of this parameter. Also in the upcoming patch, the tooltip text for the Efficiency parameter will be changed to the following:

Efficiency indicates the cost-effectiveness of a weapon (or weapon attachment) in creating damage. Efficiency values range from 1-100, and higher values indicate better efficiency. Efficiency is an inherent property of an item, and thus is not affected by avatar skills. Weapons that have scopes, lasers or amplifiers attached will display a modified Efficiency value (in orange).

A few additional points about Efficiency parameter will hopefully clear up many of the questions and dispel some of the more common misconceptions that we have noticed:

The Efficiency parameter is not affected by avatar skills.
The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.
The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).
The displayed Efficiency parameter for a given weapon does not correspond to expected overall loot return.
Optimal Loot

Another feature of Loot 2.0 that has sparked lots of discussion and speculation is Optimal Loot.

It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot). There is no Optimal Loot penalty for hunting creatures that are well below your avatar’s level; in fact most such kills will meet the requirements for Optimal Loot composition.

To best achieve Optimal Loot:

Be sure to have the Hit Ability and Damage profession requirements maxed (10.0/10.0) on the weapon your avatar is using.
Avoid over-amping (using a weapon amplifier that adds more than 50% of the maximum damage of the weapon to which it is equipped).
Minimize healing costs and the need to interrupt damage dealing to heal.
In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.

Crafting, Resources and Economy

MindArk is working on restructuring and streamlining the item situation in Entropia Universe. This involves many changes to the crafting system and loot distribution, with the goal of reducing the number of components, resources and similar items in the universe, to ensure that the majority of items have a place within the economy.

The balance between looted and crafted items, along with items from other sources such as events, competitions, strongboxes, etc., will be improved to strike a better balance.

New blueprints will use existing components and resources as much as possible to sustain a thriving and interdependent economy between crafting, mining and hunting.
 

mastermesh

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Developer Notes #13 - Loot 2.0 Statistics

https://www.entropiauniverse.com/bu...eveloper-Notes--13---Loot-2.0-Statistics.xml?
Developer Notes #13 - Loot 2.0 Statistics
The MindArk design team has been closely monitoring the impact of Loot 2.0, recently implemented in Version Update 15.15. We have also been following the many interesting and valuable discussions on community forums and thought it would be helpful to those discussions to share some hunting return statistics.

Net return for all hunting activity since VU 15.15: 94.71%
Net return for hunters cycling at least 100,000 PED since VU 15.15: 97.29%
Net return for hunters cycling at least 10,000 PED since VU 15.15: 94.79%
Net return for accounts created in 2017, cycling at least 100 PED since VU 15.15: 94.87%
Net return for accounts created in 2017: 93.47%
These return rates are very close to MindArk’s targets for Loot 2.0, and indicate that the changes implemented are working as intended. Of course, we will continue to monitor, tweak and improve moving forward.

Happy hunting!
 

GoNi

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Must spread some REP befor giving to Ferial again.

Thanks for the nice compilation of MA statements.
Well done!
 

LeelooM

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Great job Ferial and ofc some rep ^^
 

Zammaroth

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Thank You for making this Thread. Very useful

Waz
 

Billy Jean Ruby

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+rep from me too
very usefull to gather these in one thread for use as reference.
 

Ajvar

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Does DPS matter for getting better loot composition?
 

WildD3mon

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wonder what happens with healer ( medic heals a hunter) decay ? does the healer get most of it back if he starts hunting ?
 

Ferial

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wonder what happens with healer ( medic heals a hunter) decay ? does the healer get most of it back if he starts hunting ?
No, there still is no personal loot pool.

Most of the decay from healing and using armor is now compensated for in the loot of the mob
There´s your answer. The decay goes into the mob, and is thus returned in the hunters loot for that particular mob. (Granted, this could be something overlooked by MA and have the cost of other peoples healing not returned anywhere)
 

WildD3mon

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There´s your answer. The decay goes into the mob, and is thus returned in the hunters loot for that particular mob. (Granted, this could be something overlooked by MA and have the cost of other peoples healing not returned anywhere)
yes , but from the perspective of the looter , he has not spent a pec on healing . i think its no clear from ma statement where that decay goes .
 

BigPimping

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yes , but from the perspective of the looter , he has not spent a pec on healing . i think its no clear from ma statement where that decay goes .
I assume it just goes into the loot of the mob when all costs are factored how the loot is split depends on how the healer and hunter have set it up (teamed/solo etc) take a 2500 deluxe fap to sand king and heal people and see the result you get, this can also give a little insight on how it works. :girl:
 

geanina

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Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0
https://www.entropiauniverse.com/bul...--Loot-2.0.xml

"Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors".

In this statement, how do you interpreted "overkill damage" ?
 

sententz

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almost alwais was the same rules, just some returns and skills gain and value decayed drastically over the time
 

Kerham

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In this statement, how do you interpreted "overkill damage" ?
My take is that the average kill to take enough shots such as to have a chance at averaging the dmg and costs. So, don't know, 10-15 shots per kill. I would think they are saying that 1-shot punies or daiki young will return shrapnel. I don't think they mean the last shot, independent of all context, as it used to be when people were using finishers. It makes no sense for MA to push the player to use two or more weapons per each kill since that would complicate their calculations. But this is only my lazy guess. They can put "thou should use finishers" in the damn CL, I ain't doing that :laugh:
 
D

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Nice to have all the info in one place.

There is stated clearly that there is no personal loot pool.

However can someone please explain what kind of mechanism should calculate that you will not get over 100% tt return or let's say ~50% tt return on the longer run without having at least a slight view on avatar overall tt returns?

This statement to me looks a bit confusing, not saying they are not saying the true but at least I cannot figure out how that max magic number, up to 96%, is deducted without a personal loot pool.

Please comment your thoughts :)
 

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Nice to have all the info in one place.

There is stated clearly that there is no personal loot pool.

However can someone please explain what kind of mechanism should calculate that you will not get over 100% tt return or let's say ~50% tt return on the longer run without having at least a slight view on avatar overall tt returns?

This statement to me looks a bit confusing, not saying they are not saying the true but at least I cannot figure out how that max magic number, up to 96%, is deducted without a personal loot pool.

Please comment your thoughts :)
To reach a stable average return it's really the amount of loot instances or creatures killed that matters. As an example, if a player kills 2 Sand Kings spending about 5000 PED to do so the expected loot returned on those 2 kills can vary greatly. If instead killing 200,000 Punies also about 5000 PED the expected loot return is going to be very close to the expected average of 96%+ seen in the 2017 group.
SO the magic number can be reached by doing a large enough amount of loot instances. Where did you read that you will not get over 100% loot return?
 

Svarog

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However can someone please explain what kind of mechanism should calculate that you will not get over 100% tt return or let's say ~50% tt return on the longer run without having at least a slight view on avatar overall tt returns?
The law of large numbers. If MA takes say 5% cut, everyone's longterm TT return will tend to the remaining value, adjusted by their (un)efficiency and the looter professions.
 
D

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Thanks Spawn/Svarog, got that, makes sense.

Then next key-words would be 'large enough amount of loot instances'.

I understands that they should be at least same mob/maturity to let's say have a chance to even out my returns close to the promised %. Is this correct?

I mean if I have a large amount of loot instances considering combination of small and big mobs in one run means I have less chances to reach a decent return %?

And I don't get why(and I personally observed on my hunting runs) I have better % return when that 'large enough amount of loot instances' is achieved in let's say one run or more consecutive runs than doing fewer mobs over few days.

Why you get better return % when you hunt let's say 1000 mobs in one go, than when you hunt 1000 mobs (same mob/same maturity let's say) over multiple fragmented runs/days.

Any thoughts?
 

Ferial

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Nice to have all the info in one place.

There is stated clearly that there is no personal loot pool.

However can someone please explain what kind of mechanism should calculate that you will not get over 100% tt return or let's say ~50% tt return on the longer run without having at least a slight view on avatar overall tt returns?

This statement to me looks a bit confusing, not saying they are not saying the true but at least I cannot figure out how that max magic number, up to 96%, is deducted without a personal loot pool.

Please comment your thoughts :)
First of all, the only lower end limiting factor is the minimum multiplier. Since we don´t have no-looters anymore, we know that the lowest multiplier is above 0. If we assume the lowest possible multiplier is 0,33x then yes, it is possible for someone to log in, kill a mob, get the 0,33x and claim the return was 33%. That is possible for every single loot instance, and thus possible in the long term, however unlikely that is.

However, it is just as (or maybe not exactly equivalent) that someone kills mobs, and only hits 10kx multis. and comes here claming that the average return rate is 1000000%

However, the same probability(or similar) applies to lotteries, (and pretty much any instance of "investing" with big potential payouts) one could hit nothing and claim that lottery is a scam, and one could hit the jackpot twice in a row and praise the lottery.

Now the law of large number claims that this is improbable, not impossible.

The best way I´ve found to look at this game is like a game of poker, but with chips of a lot of different TRUE values and those chips ACTUAL values differ from time to time. You play against other players, and you need to win the most of the chips that have the most value relevant to their TRUE value at any time.

Just keep in mind that everytime you play a hand, MA takes a bit of your wager. Make sure you beat your opponents over time
 

Ferial

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Then next key-words would be 'large enough amount of loot instances'.
Don´t get too hung up on that keyword, because in actuality "large enough" mean "infinite" that´s the only time you´re going get a 100% accurate statistical representation of data. The keyword in general means "make sure you kill enough". To me that means, that if you get a top multi (10000x) this will even out to 96% or whatever, over time. (please note that this does not necessarily need to happen) Since you can get a 10k multi on a mob. The absolute minimum you need to kill in order to assure somewhat of consistancy is 10417 mobs. But in reality this is not enough.

I understands that they should be at least same mob/maturity to let's say have a chance to even out my returns close to the promised %. Is this correct?
In lieu of knowing how the game actually works, I´d say you need to keep the kill cost even in order to balance it out in the somewhat near future. It all evens out in the end. but say you kill 100000 mobs in three different maturity levels, and all the multis you get is on the lowest maturity mob, you´re still going to be below your expected return (if the maturity changes killcost,, it doesn´t always)

I mean if I have a large amount of loot instances considering combination of small and big mobs in one run means I have less chances to reach a decent return %?
no it doesn´t, not purely statistically at least. Once again, in lieu of how the game works, if your chances of getting a multi on any single mobs is the same, it should be the same. It might however require a bigger sample size (refer to previous response as to why)

And I don't get why(and I personally observed on my hunting runs) I have better % return when that 'large enough amount of loot instances' is achieved in let's say one run or more consecutive runs than doing fewer mobs over few days.
I would like to say that it is circumstantial, but since I do not know the inner workings of the game I cannot make a statement regarding this, statistically it should render the same results over time.
 

Svarog

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I mean if I have a large amount of loot instances considering combination of small and big mobs in one run means I have less chances to reach a decent return %?
Say you can do 1000 ped runs. You can kill 1000 of the mobs that cost 1 ped to kill or say 300 of mixed 1-3ped mobs. You results will be better in the first case (not on a particular run of course, but on a long enough series of such runs), but if you start doing 3k ped runs on mixed spawn the outcome should be similar (after many such runs!).

Why you get better return % when you hunt let's say 1000 mobs in one go, than when you hunt 1000 mobs (same mob/same maturity let's say) over multiple fragmented runs/days.
As I see it, and that's only my view, because others draw from the pool while you take the pause. You fill it up but leave before it splashes back on you, and by the time you come back it already poured onto someone else :). Like, I've cycled 50k ped on a certain mob in the past few days while no one else (99% of the time) hunted it and ended up with 97% tt return. But once other people started joining the party, the outcome started to get worse. I experience it every time I grind alone on a remote planet.

Again, it's just my view based on my limited experience, I don't push any theories.
 

Billy Jean Ruby

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Nice to have all the info in one place.

There is stated clearly that there is no personal loot pool.

However can someone please explain what kind of mechanism should calculate that you will not get over 100% tt return or let's say ~50% tt return on the longer run without having at least a slight view on avatar overall tt returns?

This statement to me looks a bit confusing, not saying they are not saying the true but at least I cannot figure out how that max magic number, up to 96%, is deducted without a personal loot pool.

Please comment your thoughts :)
Ye, this statement -> "there is no personal loot pool", to me looks like BS.
For example, how the system calculate the 94% return on 1000 or 10000 kills if there is no personal loot? That statement mean that every mob kill is independent calculation! Or im the Pope! :scratch2:
 

BigPimping

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Ye, this statement -> "there is no personal loot pool", to me looks like BS.
For example, how the system calculate the 94% return on 1000 or 10000 kills if there is no personal loot? That statement mean that every mob kill is independent calculation! Or im the Pope! :scratch2:
its math, you just arrive at around the average return (whats set in the multis dictated by looter + effic) due to the odds of each multi in the algo.
 

~ Cirrus ~

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I think MA don't lie when they say there is no personnal loot-pool.
That's true.

But did they define exactly what we call a "personnal loot-pool" ? :confused:
No.

The problem is that you didn't ask them the good question.

If you ask, is there a personnal loot-pool ?
For sure they simply answer "No".

But maybe you should ask if there is some personnal parameters between any specific avatar and its loot. (I don't talk here about gameplay, tools, guns used.. but about coding)
Then the answer would probably be more complex than Yes or No.. :wise:

Because there is obviously some for many reasons.

The first one is that EU is not a casino.
And it must not be !.. Never.
Cause the law don't allow it in many countries.

This is also probably the main reason why they added the "Looter skills" lately.
There is probably some others "hidden" parameters since long time, but the Looter skills are easier to show, they are obvious.
 
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