List of official statments pertaining to loot post 2.0

Ferial

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Ye, this statement -> "there is no personal loot pool", to me looks like BS.
For example, how the system calculate the 94% return on 1000 or 10000 kills if there is no personal loot? That statement mean that every mob kill is independent calculation! Or im the Pope! :scratch2:
oh for the love of god, this is no miracle.

What MA has posted, is simply an average. You do know how averages work right? if 50 people have 0% return and 50 people have 100% return the average will be that "everyone" has 50% return.

The people who have 0% return will dream of having 50% return, the people who have 100% returns have nightmares about having 50% returns, in reality, it´s a 50/50 split, and noone has 50% returns.

If a casino has 96% RTP (Returned to player) on a game, do you thing every single wager is going to return 96%? No, simply because noone would play the slot if you bet 100$ and got 96$ back on every swing.
It works exactly the same here, like it or not, this game is a casino, HOWEVER (and that´s a big however) You have choices to make on what kind of "chips" you would like to collect (and these depends on your skills)

it´s all in the multipliers.
let´s say 50% of the loot instances are set to loot 50% of the wager cost, we now have 25% RTP.
let´s say next to those 50% we have 25% of the loot instances set to loot 75% of the cost to play. you know have 43,75%RTP
lets say next to those, you have 20% of the loot instances set to loot 100% of the wager cost, we now have 63.75% RTP
let´s say you have 2,5% return 250% of the wager cost. we now have 70% rtp
let´s say you have 1% return 5000% of the wagers cost. we now have 75% rtp.
let´s say you have 1% return 10000% of the wagers cost, we now have 85% rtp.
let´s say the remainder 0.5% return 20000% of the wagers cost we now have 95% rtp.

this way, MA never pays out more than 95% of their income, the average return is 95% over the entire playerbase. but the returns can vary quite vastly within the playerbase.
 

Ferial

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I think MA don't lie when they say there is no personnal loot-pool.
That's true.

But did they define exactly what we call a "personnal loot-pool" ? :confused:
No.

The problem is that you didn't ask them the good question.

If you ask, is there a personnal loot-pool ?
For sure they simply answer "No".

But maybe you should ask if there is some personnal parameters between any specific avatar and its loot. (I don't talk here about gameplay, tools, guns used.. but about coding)
Then the answer would probably be more complex than Yes or No.. :wise:

Because there is obviously some for many reasons.

The first one is that EU is not a casino.
And it must not be !.. Never.
Cause the law don't allow it in many countries.
There is no personal lootpool, there will never be a personal lootpool. why? Because MA does not need a personal loot pool, it has no benefit to them. They get their cut, no matter how it´s setup.

EU is not a casino, because in a casino, you play purely against the house. EU is however a casino in the way that it works exactly the same way (why change something that´s working) as a casino. We play against the house for our loot, however, the difference is that we have trading and markup, which effectively turns it into "not a casino" since we´re no longer playing "purely against the house". We can lose all our money, to the house, and still be in profit. That cannot happen in a casino.
 

Kerham

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Ye, this statement -> "there is no personal loot pool", to me looks like BS.
For example, how the system calculate the 94% return on 1000 or 10000 kills if there is no personal loot? That statement mean that every mob kill is independent calculation! Or im the Pope! :scratch2:
The problem with a personal lootpool is that the system cannot possibly predict when a player will log out, in or take a break or simply swing from a 0,5 ped/try activity to a 20 ped/try activity.

For that set return, is simply a hardcoded function. A dice roll or a coin flip is the simplest visualization: I don't care if YOU have hit 450 times "heads" in a row, what I need is tens of thousands of people paying 1 per try while I pay back 0.98. Also I would need a structure of betting which to treat each of those 450 events as individual ones, so I preserve my odds. Or even better I can offer "progressive" stuff, where you have the extraordinary chance of ruining your whole 450 event at the 451st try. Either way, I will win, as a house, guaranteed, in the longterm. So I would be able to say "over past years, our honourable enterprise paid back 98% in payouts".

If you read carefully their statement, it does not refer to individual players. What they measure is input vs output on different levels of input activity. It is written there "actual individual results may differ significantly" or something like this. Wether you as an individual manage to model your playstyle to their opaque system (aka "black box") and guess/theorycraft a behaviour which to counter or take advantage of said system is "game knowledge" and "adaptation".
 

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Thanks Spawn/Svarog, got that, makes sense.

Then next key-words would be 'large enough amount of loot instances'.

I understands that they should be at least same mob/maturity to let's say have a chance to even out my returns close to the promised %. Is this correct?

I mean if I have a large amount of loot instances considering combination of small and big mobs in one run means I have less chances to reach a decent return %?

And I don't get why(and I personally observed on my hunting runs) I have better % return when that 'large enough amount of loot instances' is achieved in let's say one run or more consecutive runs than doing fewer mobs over few days.

Why you get better return % when you hunt let's say 1000 mobs in one go, than when you hunt 1000 mobs (same mob/same maturity let's say) over multiple fragmented runs/days.

Any thoughts?
In my opinion there is a difference between what Mindark says and the way to profit. I am not happy enough with 96%. I would rather have 101-110% tt . That's profit.
In my personal experience I only profit if I have enough multipliers. So my goal ingame is to get enough multipliers.
Experience in this game will teach you ways to do this.

Here's a way to profit:

there are weapons ingame that can do spray damage. for example the one from rocktropia at hunt the thing.
it deals 1-2 dmg per shot at 2.831 eco . If you spray it from left to right however it can hit 5 targets at once. All of these targets take the mindamage 1.0. Thus doing 5 damage max doing 2.5 the damage. This means the eco goes up to 2,5 x 2.831 = 7.07

You do nothing wrong because you are using the ability of the gun. You use the gun as intended.


There are many ways to profit.. look good and you shall find.
 

Euphoria

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Lets remember that those 96% return isnt avatar based but for the entier game. Loot is player vs player. Some have to have loses so Another can win that day. And the more you cycle a day the bigger chance you have of a win.... nothing is garantiet tho.
 

Ferial

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The problem with a personal lootpool is that the system cannot possibly predict when a player will log out, in or take a break or simply swing from a 0,5 ped/try activity to a 20 ped/try activity.
This right here is important to note. If there was a personal lootpool, variance have had to been lowered.

there are weapons ingame that can do spray damage. for example the one from rocktropia at hunt the thing.
it deals 1-2 dmg per shot at 2.831 eco . If you spray it from left to right however it can hit 5 targets at once. All of these targets take the mindamage 1.0. Thus doing 5 damage max doing 2.5 the damage. This means the eco goes up to 2,5 x 2.831 = 7.07

There are many ways to profit.. look good and you shall find.
Have you actually tried this though? Did you get a decent enough sample size to actually verify that this is accurate? MA has stated more or less that DPP only effects loot comp, and that your loot value is determined pretty much purely determined by your efficiency and looter skills(over time).

Lets remember that those 96% return isnt avatar based but for the entier game. Loot is player vs player. Some have to have loses so Another can win that day. And the more you cycle a day the bigger chance you have of a win.... nothing is garantiet tho.
Mostly correct, but the size of your cycle has nothing to do with your chance to win. Effectively, every loot instance is the same. However the larger the amount of mobs you kill the more likely it is that your results converge to the"96%" :D
 

crazyqpp

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Since i've been getting questions in-game requesting sources for statements I've made it appears as though many players have missed these statements. Figured I´d save them in a post so I can just link this post instead of having to find the posts each time, as well as inform anyone on PCF who might have missed them aswell.

Regarding efficiency and/or DPP




Regarding personal loot pools.


Regarding turnover and/or return stabilization


Regarding “defensive” decay returns.


Regarding paid markup returned in loot


Regarding taxes on LAs


Regarding unmaxed item usage



Regarding various “tinfoil” arguments.


TLDR;

Efficiency has a direct impact on your loot returns. DPP has an impact on your loot composition. Paid markup is not returned in loot. Most of your defensive costs are returned in loot, not all. Using unmaxed weapons isn´t as expensive as it used to be, but is still not great. LAs take cut from loot instance, like almost everyone expected.

TLDRTLDR:
Get efficiency, get DPP. Limit defensive costs. Limit MU spent, Maximize MU gained. Don´t hunt in taxed areas unless the MU gained offsets the tax. Loot many mobs. (My interpretation)

If you have any more of these, feel free to post them and I'll add them
Good read. Great Help. Big Thanks :)
 

RobBuona

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Nice to have all the info in one place.

There is stated clearly that there is no personal loot pool.

However can someone please explain what kind of mechanism should calculate that you will not get over 100% tt return or let's say ~50% tt return on the longer run without having at least a slight view on avatar overall tt returns?

This statement to me looks a bit confusing, not saying they are not saying the true but at least I cannot figure out how that max magic number, up to 96%, is deducted without a personal loot pool.

Please comment your thoughts :)
If you flip a coin 500,000 times, assuming the coin is "fair" i.e. not weighted in favor of one side, you will get very close to 250,000 heads and 250,000 tails.

Loot system works the same way - just more complex of course.
 

Alukat123

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The problem with a personal lootpool is that the system cannot possibly predict when a player will log out, in or take a break or simply swing from a 0,5 ped/try activity to a 20 ped/try activity.
They could just track your results, which they are doing.
you do all the 0,5 ped/try clicks and then you're 500 PED behind 95%, times 1000 needed now, you switch to the 20ped/try and that times 1000 actually happens internally, but you don't get it because it gets scaled down to a times 25 multi. This way it gets prevented to get more 95% return.
And then they can do it the other way around as well, you do your 20ped/try craft and you're 2000 PED behind 95% and then you switch to 0,5ped/try craft, now the multis for that 0,5ped/try craft get increased, so you won't be behind by 2k ped anymore.

so "personal lootpool" can be done ^^

Entropia is dynamic, isn't it?
 

San

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One of the most useful posts ever made, and upon re-reading still discovering details I sometimes get confused about. If others feel the same way, could it be stickied, please?

One question I am still seeking guidance about is how much the difference in returns (quantity and composition) actually is between a weapon-amp combination of, say, 62% and one of 68% (skills all maxed on both, one unlimited paying off its markup the more you use it, the other (L) costing markup at every turn). Easy calculation if relationships were linear but they say this is not necessarily the case. There is a "feeling" (supported by others) of getting more globals/minis with the higher-efficiency setup, but can't pin it down in numbers or when there are, other causes are plausible. Been trying to test it ever since but can't seem to produce a sample size big enough for a clear picture through normal variance.
 
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Kerham

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and then you switch to 0,5ped/try craft, now the multis for that 0,5ped/try craft get increased, so you won't be behind by 2k ped anymore.
Entropia is not a charity. They couldn't care less if you're behind or ahead tt-wise. As somebody who both gambled (both IRL and ingame) and also crafted above average level (I actually crafted for a couple of years quite a few hours a day, even on costly clicks), I can say with full confidence that tt-wise EU works exactly like a casino in terms of "chance to X" and that is your duty to watch for pitfalls.

Nobody will ever hold your hand in terms of tt results, if you switch from 10 ped/try to 0,5 ped/try it is what it is, ciao. If it was a bankroll-motivated decision, consider the loss as gone and that's it. The only way to "get back" losses would be to loot some MU which to cover for them. Which doesn't exist in gambling, hence EU paradoxically helped me with quitting gambling lol.

I am not saying personal lootpool is impossible to be implemented, I am saying is such a headache that there would be no reasonable reason to implement it. That an ava could somehow be quantified is entirely possible, but an accounting system would be a huge mistake. And I was a believer so to say for years, but what you see as "proofs" of personal lootpool can be interpreted or activated in many ways, and some make more sense than others from a business or logistical perspective.
 

M Rufen Power

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How did I miss this thread... thanks OP. + rep.
 

RickEngland

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Charlie: There also seems to still be a lot of confusion in regards to what "Efficiency" does. Efficiency has a direct effect on the overall TT return

That's all well and good of course, if running the "best" efficient weapons, yet it still doesn't explain or resolve the issue of..... "Deposit today and get a few globals, but tomorrow your ava is set to COMPLETE card clean", and there's absolutely nothing a player can do to turn that around, no matter how much they shoot (once the always watching balancing manager sets a player to that outcome).

The only conclusion I can come to in my mind, is that if a player has around 400K skills, based on the system rules you should constantly win with high efficient gear, so the system has to manually set a player on loss, until MA 'release' that player from a manual block to allow them to bounce back. But if the balancing manager goes off shift and doesn't pass the message on, or there's no auto-timer to release the block, then it's basically doom.

Whatever the reason why the system constantly behaves like this (for my ava anyway), it doesn't inspire confidence to deposit within 24 hours on the back of a big loss (or system block), using the best weapons the game offers.

Only really posting to see if MA implement a change for 2020 to stop this happening or to find a way to implement an auto-fix or loss limiter. I'll lookout for news, or possibly try again in 6 months.

Anyhow Happy New Year, good luck out there.

Rick
 

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Charlie: There also seems to still be a lot of confusion in regards to what "Efficiency" does. Efficiency has a direct effect on the overall TT return

That's all well and good of course, if running the "best" efficient weapons, yet it still doesn't explain or resolve the issue of..... "Deposit today and get a few globals, but tomorrow your ava is set to COMPLETE card clean", and there's absolutely nothing a player can do to turn that around, no matter how much they shoot (once the always watching balancing manager sets a player to that outcome).

The only conclusion I can come to in my mind, is that if a player has around 400K skills, based on the system rules you should constantly win with high efficient gear, so the system has to manually set a player on loss, until MA 'release' that player from a manual block to allow them to bounce back. But if the balancing manager goes off shift and doesn't pass the message on, or there's no auto-timer to release the block, then it's basically doom.

Whatever the reason why the system constantly behaves like this (for my ava anyway), it doesn't inspire confidence to deposit within 24 hours on the back of a big loss (or system block), using the best weapons the game offers.

Only really posting to see if MA implement a change for 2020 to stop this happening or to find a way to implement an auto-fix or loss limiter. I'll lookout for news, or possibly try again in 6 months.

Anyhow Happy New Year, good luck out there.

Rick
I think the mistake many of us have done is to hunt too much too fast, instead of having
a cool down between hunts. For me this use to work, there are ofc many other reasons why
we can have shitty return, reasons that were there even before the depo, because isn't so the
reason for a depo sometimes is just that, poor return? ;)
 

RickEngland

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I think the mistake many of us have done is to hunt too much too fast, instead of having
a cool down between hunts. For me this use to work, there are ofc many other reasons why
we can have shitty return, reasons that were there even before the depo, because isn't so the
reason for a depo sometimes is just that, poor return? ;)
Depends how we view that. We deposit for a "fresh start" to recover from previous losses. I paid to enjoy some xmas entertainment in a "non-gambling" game, so i dont subscribe to player error under those promised conditions. The system 'should' deliver entertainment when paying. It's Mindarks loss to be honest, if they choose to miss another 6 months of deposits in exchange for reasonable entertainment , then they're obviously more cash rich than I gave them credit. It's a real shame, Mindark continues to push their players away. Oh well onwards and upwards, it was a "test" deposit. I learned my lesson. All the best.
 

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Depends how we view that. We deposit for a "fresh start" to recover from previous losses. I paid to enjoy some xmas entertainment in a "non-gambling" game, so i dont subscribe to player error under those promised conditions. The system 'should' deliver entertainment when paying. It's Mindarks loss to be honest, if they choose to miss another 6 months of deposits in exchange for reasonable entertainment , then they're obviously more cash rich than I gave them credit. It's a real shame, Mindark continues to push their players away. Oh well onwards and upwards, it was a "test" deposit. I learned my lesson. All the best.
Yeah I look at it in the same way. For me EU is entertainment, not a second job.
What I mentioned in the earlier post is just pure game mechanism, not the best imo
since they seem to have problem to code it so it use values we create instantly, and
above that keep us at the point we are at. How many times have I not been booted
due to CTD, LoCo or similar when loot is realy good? Just to log in and loot is crap.
Oddly it doesn't happen when loot is bad. CTDs, LoCos and so on comes when loot
is too good. :silly2:
 

RickEngland

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Yeah I look at it in the same way. For me EU is entertainment, not a second job.
What I mentioned in the earlier post is just pure game mechanism, not the best imo
since they seem to have problem to code it so it use values we create instantly, and
above that keep us at the point we are at. How many times have I not been booted
due to CTD, LoCo or similar when loot is realy good? Just to log in and loot is crap.
Oddly it doesn't happen when loot is bad. CTDs, LoCos and so on comes when loot
is too good. :silly2:
I hear ya. I'm sure MA have good intentions with their efficiency rules, but as you say; it would appear they struggle to implement those rules within the actual game.

Thanks to the OP collating all the dev posts in one place. New decade approaching, new rules....haha.

Rick.
 

Ferial

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Since people have once again started asking for sources for statements, i figured it was time for a bump.
And with it,"replies" to some common "misconceptions" regarding what has been said.


Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.
This statement does not necessarily imply a linear correlation between efficiency and TT return. There might be, but it's not something we can deduce from this statement alone.

Most of the decay from healing and using armor is now compensated for in the loot of the mob. On top of this the actual amount of decay to the armor per damage absorbed was reduced greatly. Overall the cost for healing and armor usage is less than 5% of what it used to be.
Similar to the problem with assumptions made based on the previous statement, this statement does not necessarily imply that 95% of defensive costs are returned as loot (as i've witnessed many people conclude)
Based on the statement alone, the only thing we know is that > 50% of defensive decay is returned in loot and that it's quite a bit cheaper today using defensive measures.

I'd still argue though that, based on the information given, minimizing defensive decay is still beneficial (if nothing else, it should increase dpp which according to other statements has an impact on composition).

I'm not saying that the assumptions people make are wrong, I'm just saying that based on the information provided in this thread, we cannot know for sure, and it's better to use what we know for sure as guidelines, rather than assumptions that may or may not be accurate.
 

LavaSparks

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I am not saying personal lootpool is impossible to be implemented, I am saying is such a headache that there would be no reasonable reason to implement it. That an ava could somehow be quantified is entirely possible, but an accounting system would be a huge mistake. And I was a believer so to say for years, but what you see as "proofs" of personal lootpool can be interpreted or activated in many ways, and some make more sense than others from a business or logistical perspective.
Why make it complicated when they can make it simple. Copy/paste casino, add mob skins and thousands of items + a few other activities (make-up etc) as smoke screen. Just look at codex, and how skills work. Very straigth forward.

There is a huge difference between hunting, mining and crafting though. Hunting is a pyramid scheme - top hunters leech off average hunter (but probably paid for it on their way up there). Mining and crafting is more fair when it comes to tt return. I like the mining profession the most (despite being a hunter) in terms of fairness, since it returns equal amount of tt, but rewards game skill: loot composition varies according to both equipment (indirectly: skills), and knowledge/experience of mining areas.
 

yeeck

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Technically, there is nothing to discuss at all.
Do u agreed?
 

Spawn

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Technically, there is nothing to discuss at all.
Do u agreed?
If Mindark has a track record of transparency and honesty then, there is nothing to discuss at all.
 

forgo

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Regarding taxes on LAs
People should realize that when you buy a land area, you are buying the tax. The Planet partner or MA has the option to sell an area of tax in lieu of capital. CLD is assigning the tax income of 1/2 of all Calypso (non taxed) to players. Only with CLD the players cannot control the tax, it is hidden, jsut like every other planet proper. Best I could figure based on financial reports and CLD income is that Caly is set around 6%. In the case of Calypso you are fueling CLD at a higher % than most private LA's. And there is certainly no double taxation occurring, as they would never get investors to buy them, or hunters or miners to visit. While MA did also mention in those QA's that loot is bigger on LA.....this is entirely due to often lower tax, and is misleading but not inaccurate.

MA has an interest to keep CLD income consistent (remember, they own the other half of calypso) , as many people judge the health of the economy on those payouts. Its why IMO they run so many events, to maintain the income and CLD return. Mindark did a podcast once a long time ago that is scrubbed from the internet now, but they were once very very clear about this mechanic with the journalists as they were trying to get new Neverdies to enter the game....and it worked on me, that is when I decided to start depositing.

I wish they would be more forward about this, but the conflict of interest on the subject is clear...they have a financial interest in maintaining the illusion that Calypso proper is lower tax than "taxed". So this is why they will always tiptoe around the answer. Back then they wanted to just be the platform provider, only due to the failed SEE purchase of the planet were they forced to keep it while Courts worked out details. They then decided to sell that companies shares back to the players in the form of CLD to recoup the costs they would have received from the sale, while maintaining income they thought would be coming form planet content additions, which cost PP's money and isn't utilized as much as they thought would be.
 

Ferial

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I wish they would be more forward about this, but the conflict of interest on the subject is clear...
That all makes sense from an investment standpoint, however, the double taxation makes just as much sense, in that you would buy opportunities in the platform, to do with as you please.

I too would like some clarification on this matter. Perhaps a good question to ask in the upcoming AMA. If carefully worded a conclusion could be made even if the response is not straightforward.

On the other hand, it should be fairly easy for a high turnover avatar who owns an LA test, so I'm sure it has been done. Since results of such a test doesn't seem to be common knowledge, they likely weren't favorable to publish (EDIT: or I have just completely missed it )
 

yeeck

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If Mindark has a track record of transparency and honesty then, there is nothing to discuss at all.

Spawn, I hope u understand.
Most of the time, I did write a lots but I deleted them at the end.

Do you believe MA has reached their limits?
 

Spawn

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Spawn, I hope u understand.
Most of the time, I did write a lots but I deleted them at the end.

Do you believe MA has reached their limits?
No. But having an RCE means you cannot be transparent or otherwise players will 'figure it out'. Statements about loot are never the full story. That's why discussion about loot is always good and every statement Mindark makes should be tested and weighed and discussed.
For example, what Mindark said about old school scopes and lasers. Or that they said that items will always keep their stats. Or all the promises made and a lot of them not kept. I could give a lot of examples, but thats beside the point. The.point being that discussion about loot or discussion of Mindarks statements about loot is always good.
 

yeeck

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No. But having an RCE means you cannot be transparent or otherwise players will 'figure it out'... The.point being that discussion about loot or discussion of Mindarks statements about loot is always good.

There so many famous forum that discuss about investment on listed companies shares, options and unit trust.
Everything that you can relate there to here is really very similar.
Sad to say this, I let you figure out the end results yourself.
 

Polujacy

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For people who don't believe, I'll say yes. You can go out nicely for a plus while hunting. Hunting in the EU is not taking 1000 or 5000 peds of ammunition and pounding just to grind. People who do this are just lazy.
 

Polujacy

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[QUOTE = "~ Cirrus ~, post: 3615423, członek: 59166"]
Myślę, że MA nie kłamie, kiedy mówią, że nie ma osobistych łupów.
To prawda.

Ale czy dokładnie zdefiniowali to, co nazywamy „osobistą pulą łupów”? :zmieszany:
Nie.

Problem w tym, że nie zadałeś im dobrego pytania.

Jeśli zapytasz, czy istnieje osobista pula łupów?
Na pewno odpowiedzą po prostu „Nie”.

Ale może powinieneś zapytać, czy istnieją jakieś osobiste parametry między konkretnym awatarem a jego łupem. (Nie mówię tutaj o rozgrywce, narzędziach, używanej broni ... ale o kodowaniu)
Wtedy odpowiedź byłaby prawdopodobnie bardziej złożona niż Tak lub Nie. :mądry:

Ponieważ jest oczywiście kilka z wielu powodów.

Po pierwsze, UE nie jest kasynem.
I nie może być! .. Nigdy.
Ponieważ prawo nie zezwala na to w wielu krajach.

Jest to prawdopodobnie główny powód, dla którego ostatnio dodali "umiejętności szabrownika".
Prawdopodobnie od dawna jest kilka innych „ukrytych” parametrów, ale umiejętności Szabrownika są łatwiejsze do pokazania, są oczywiste.
[/ZACYTOWAĆ]
The answer to what you wrote is: YES, there is a specific setting for the avatar and its inventory plus what it uses. I've tested hundreds of times, and I'm always positive. You just have to find out. Nobody will tell you.
 
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