Loot 2.0 : Recap

[DoA]

Unlike others, this is a real cash economy game, playing for profit is inherent, or investing for possible profit in the future, by playing not just "investing". Other MMO's cost $20/month or whatever and that's fine throw away money for entertainment. The vast majority of people don't want to or simply cannot pay $300 or $500+ per month to play this game for "fun".

There are people ditching hundreds of dollars in cash shops of other games (not RCE) too, that's not an issue.

But that's not the main thing; what I'm saying is that I think is that EU would be in a better place with 100,000 people paying $10 per month than with 1,000 people paying $500 per month... it would mean less volatility for them too since one or a few people leaving wouldn't really hurt their income.

And the thing is that since MA have their rake (which is totally normal), is already obvious that (most) people will run to a loss; now if on top of MA's rake they also have to pay for profits of some big spenders, big cyclers, big profiting hunters is obvious that loses for the average, low or mid depositor become too big to support and there are tons of threads on the forum crying exactly over this (yeah, true, they're mostly blaming MA, not the other players that profit, but in a sub-zero sum game is clear that when someone makes profit someone else has to pay for said profits).

So what it seems that MA is trying to achieve with this "Robin Hood" update is to cater to the larger player base of casual players that are already running to a loss (and not really complaining about losing, but about how much they're losing) and limit their losses... and, obviously, to achieve that they have to take from the people that previously were on the other side of the balance, making a profit. It seems obvious to me.

And I personally think that's the right decision... and I'm quite sure that 98% of the players that will see better returns (not profiting obviously, still losing, but losing at a lower rate so being able to make their money last longer and get more entertainment value for their bucks) will agree with me (probably not as vocal though; heck, probably vast majority of them don't even have a forum account), while the 2% that were running at a profit (many times a substantial profit) would cry over it...

You are wondering why should you keep playing if you would start losing (by paying MA's rake), but why not wondering why should the others that far now lost much more (not only by paying MA's rake, but also by subsiding your profits), should keep playing? Does it make any sense? You don't think that EU is worth a small loss for you, but you think is worth a larger loss for others? Hypocrisy much?

 

[Xen]

This was my first fear when I saw this and commented on it in the original thread, I didn't want to be put in some imaginary optimal mob box.

I am working on Aurli bronze. Based on results from last few days of 4+ hr runs, I am starting to get the idea that my setup is not a match for these mobs... so now I guess I should bail on the mission when I am almost 2/3 of the way done??? or stick with it and loose my ass ??? Those are my choices now???

The whole point of doing missions for me is to be able to grind a bit and skill the fuck up with rewards at the end!

Now I am being penalized for that because my rig don't match the mobs I can kill? If so WTF MA.

/sad

Dear MA, Please tell me what mob I need to hunt based on my current set up. I don't want to waste time and money trying to figure out what your fucking idea of the optimal mob is.

Are you using an unmaxed non sib weapon (think you have MM)? If so, in my experience definitely don't do that, no matter what the eco is (except maybe imk2).

 

[Mac]

Are you using an unmaxed non sib weapon (think you have MM)? If so, in my experience definitely don't do that, no matter what the eco is (except maybe imk2).

ya.. 103 hit/ 98 dmg, I was using it to try to get to magic 100/100 because it skills nice and had great eco, frankly it hasn't been too bad before 2.0. Now what, put it in storage and start buying L weps to skill up the last two levels I guess? ffs...

 

[Xen]

ya.. 103 hit/ 98 dmg, I was using it to try to get to magic 100/100 because it skills nice and had great eco, frankly it hasn't been too bad before 2.0. Now what, put it in storage and start buying L weps to skill up the last two levels I guess? ffs...

Could be the reason, I would eliminate that as a possibility for testing loot. At least you are very close.

 

[CozMoDan]

I find this part the most worrying. My experience so far, and also talking to other players, is that the system appears to punish for hunting below your level. This is with very limited data, so take it as just a preliminary experience.

If this turns out to be true, it would certainly be the final nail in the hunting coffin for myself and many others, since a lot of us can't afford to hunt at whatever our professional levels would suggest. It also means MindArk is forcing you to spend more and more as you level up. So your only option is to do just that, or constantly chip out to keep your levels at your budget. With the price of ESI and the very low MU and sales for skills, this isn't a great option.

Not to worry that is not the case at least for me. Not sure if you read my other post about losing my butt, the one where I mentioned the 96 PEC atox prowler I just finished 4 20 ped runs punies, profit on all but one and lost less than a ped on that and TTed 31.91 ped on the last one. Had one puny loot 7.92 ped.

So I am not sure at all how this works and not sure I ever will.

 

[CozMoDan]

Please do judge me for what I say not for who I am, otherwise, you're just doing an ad hominem attack, which is a logical fallacy by itself. Anyway, to answer you, I'm a low-level player, so what I say is not from personal experience but as Arrigo Sacchi first said it, I never realized that to be a jockey you had to be a horse first. I think we all can have a perspective and theorize about a subject even without having personally experimented said things first hand.

Everything I say on the forums is based on my common sense (or maybe lack of... who knows) and my logic... and even if I don't mention it every time (since I think it's obvious) since I only state my opinions, it is always very possible that I may be wrong (just like anyone else may be wrong). But, still, as far as I'm aware, I always try to stay politically correct and never state my opinions as irrefutable truths, but always use phrases like "I think", "I prefer" or "I consider" which express the very same idea, that that's just my personal perspective, and not the absolute truth and it is, obviously, possible to be wrong.

And about forums... well, I have this personal challenge of gathering 1,000,000 sweat bottles... when I have in-game friends online or when there's activity on my planet's chat I do chat in game while sweating... when everything's quite in game, I switch here... so not trolling, but somehow close - keeping myself busy and entertained.

Not sure what a football coach would know about horse racing but not much. Its true you do not to be a horse but you should know what it is and how to ride without falling off. Theory is fine but to have to get down in the mud to prove it works. Just saying your posts seem to indicate that you have the voice of experience. If your goal is 1M sweat bottles and that is what you been doing all this time I bet you are a great sweater. I wonder what your level is at now ?

 

[The Abomb]

I think profiting should be tied to investments (land areas, shops, services, trades), while the main professions (and especially hunting) should be about entertainment and come with a net cost, not with a net profit... just my 2 cents...

I disagree respectfully because of a couple reasons. First they advertise that this game you can make money hunting.

Next it's always a draw to a game to make money from loot. While most won't there should still be people making withdraws from being successful at thier respected profession.

If the top players of each profession aren't making withdraws then there is a serious problem there. If there are no winners then why play?

"If no mistakes you have made and losing you are, a different game you should play"- Yoda

 

[Lefty]

I disagree respectfully because of a couple reasons. First they advertise that this game you can make money hunting.

Next it's always a draw to a game to make money from loot. While most won't there should still be people making withdraws from being successful at thier respected profession.

If the top players of each profession aren't making withdraws then there is a serious problem there. If there are no winners then why play?

"If no mistakes you have made and losing you are, a different game you should play"- Yoda

I would love a shift from rewarding avatar skills to rewarding player skills.

 

[Immortal]

I might disagree with you somewhat on the overkill. I think there was a safety mechanism which compensated for large overkill, but not sure being a miser with overkill didn't help a little.

When i refer to overkill, I of course don't mean being completely stupid on puny etc.
There might be a new dynamic where ECo*Kill_Sped-overkill has to be balanced

 

[San]

Fourth daily round of Oratan Prospector Villain (again ca. 250 mobs total) ended with barely 70% tt return. With the previous ~40%, 110%, 105% it seems so far that returns and dynamic haven't changed much from before. A much more noticeable change had occurred from late March onward when the dynamic range increased significantly, as already reported. Several days of devastating cuts wipe out a budget which was good enough with ups and downs for the longest time before. They were offset by good winnings, too, but when you hit that wall there is no way out but to find money. I haven't kept long-term statistics now and to make any relevant sample size one would have to add all these dailies together, which won't happen anymore with the goal so near. Will see what to do next and how it turns out. At any rate, the budget won't change directed by the game, but by real-life factors and if they insist on eating it up faster, there won't be more.

 

[Me Really Never]

i also noticed that multipliers seem to come in waves as well now. thats even more noticable than before loot 2.0.
i get zero multiplier in 30-60 mins and then when i get one i either get 3 in a row or 5 out of 10 mobs or i dont get any at all. but its not random throughout the hunt. not even close to that.
this is so obvious that it happens every single time...

i thought they wanted to get rid of waves? ... failed MA...

 

[DoA]

If the top players of each profession aren't making withdraws then there is a serious problem there. If there are no winners then why play?

Why millions of players play any other MMOs where there is no withdraw option?

I really think that the reason why someone should play a game is that it is fun because it provides them with entertainment value, not for making money. Now if the game is not fun to be played without the added incentive of potential profits that's sure a problem that has to be addressed, but the problem is not the one of not getting profits since tons of others MMOs do very well without offering this kind of added incentive.

TL; DR: People should play the game because it is fun, not because they are shown a carrot.

 

[San]

I think you're going to hit your head against the wall if you want to tell people what their motivations should be. One could discuss if certain statements in advertisements draw the wrong crowd or create false expectations. The gist which still escapes many is, yes, anyone can win, but not everyone, because you can only win from other players, whether by some rare gear or finding ways to outsmart the crowd. The latter is usually found out the hard way.

 

[DoA]

I think you're going to hit your head against the wall if you want to tell people what their motivations should be. One could discuss if certain statements in advertisements draw the wrong crowd or create false expectations. The gist which still escapes many is, yes, anyone can win, but not everyone, because you can only win from other players, whether by some rare gear or finding ways to outsmart the crowd. The latter is usually found out the hard way.

I'm actually not trying to tell anyone what their goal SHOULD be (and sorry if I make it look like this).

Instead, what I'm trying to point is that there COULD be other goals too, not just the money carrot on a stick (and that is proven by the vast number of people playing other, non-RCE MMOs), because a lot of people claimed here that the only reason someone should play EU is for profit.

 

[CozMoDan]

Why millions of players play any other MMOs where there is no withdraw option?

I really think that the reason why someone should play a game is that it is fun because it provides them with entertainment value, not for making money. Now if the game is not fun to be played without the added incentive of potential profits that's sure a problem that has to be addressed, but the problem is not the one of not getting profits since tons of others MMOs do very well without offering this kind of added incentive.

TL; DR: People should play the game because it is fun, not because they are shown a carrot.

I agree completely. (surprise, surprise) That should be the main reason IMO also and I do enjoy this game very much. I think the problem is you have no way to keep score but by money. Other games have game rank, how many other players you have killed etc. I think players need some kind of competition, be the best player, be recognized by all etc. Here its your professional level, your equipment, land holdings, apartment, castle, the list goes on and of course the size of your ped card. Can you imagine grinding a mob all day and there is no loot for that, just a monthly fee, Haven knows if I had a business that bleeds money like this one I would have sold it long ago, probably about 2 weeks after starting. It would be really boring without money because you have no way to keep score.

Just a PS I don't think there would be any crafting, or mining at all for that matter, without money and anyone who starts this game and thinks they will profit is living in fantasy land.

 

[wizz]

... since tons of others MMOs do very well ...

If you say "tons", welll, at name me at least 10 other MMO's that have ben running for over 15 years.

Not claiming there arent, I just dont know them

PS, for me the RCE element is the only reason for me to stick to entropia.
WOW might be nice, but to play for "nothing" seems to be a waste of time for me.
I want it real. Real costs, real winnings.

It's the same as my regular poker night. We always play for real money, low stakes but at least for real money.

If we would play for just chips it simply wouldnt be as much fun.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

Why millions of players play any other MMOs where there is no withdraw option?

FFS just go and play those other games and stop posting your bs.... please.

 

[DoA]

If you say "tons", welll, at name me at least 10 other MMO's that have ben running for over 15 years.

Just the ones that came through my mind on the spur of the moment (checked them all and all have 10+ years of activity, some going as far as 20+:

World of Warcraft
Lord of the Rings Online
Guild Wars I
Lineage II
EVE Online
Runescape
Ultima Online
Everquest I and II
Aion
Dungeons and Dragons Online
Age of Conan
Wurm Online

Now I don't say those are better than EU; I'm here, not there, so I think that's the best proof that I like EU more than any of them (and no, not because of a dream of making a profit). I'm just pointing out that there are tons of games which are doing just fine (I dare to say probably better than EU) without an added cash carrot incentive.

 

[Dan59]

I agree completely. (surprise, surprise) That should be the main reason IMO also and I do enjoy this game very much. I think the problem is you have no way to keep score but by money. Other games have game rank, how many other players you have killed etc. I think players need some kind of competition, be the best player, be recognized by all etc. Here its your professional level, your equipment, land holdings, apartment, castle, the list goes on and of course the size of your ped card. Can you imagine grinding a mob all day and there is no loot for that, just a monthly fee, Haven knows if I had a business that bleeds money like this one I would have sold it long ago, probably about 2 weeks after starting. It would be really boring without money because you have no way to keep score.

Just a PS I don't think there would be any crafting, or mining at all for that matter, without money and anyone who starts this game and thinks they will profit is living in fantasy land.

Wrong.
There are many subscription games and so called free to play (web shop) games where you grind hard for entertainment and not for profit.
For challenge to be able to kill certain level mob, for avatar progress and his status in society - clan, for new skills, for new gear and materials for crafting armor, weapon and ammo
If you want better gear you can try to loot with very low chance or you can grind very long time to gather all mats and try to craft it witch ofc can fail and you loose part of mats and you are back on grinding.
Goal in such doing is not to withdrawal money but to have full geared ton and to be able to participate on siege or land grab how is called here,
Such games don't have pay to win model as here and don't have possibility to withdrawal so obviously have player base looking and paying for entertainment and not for profit.
Crafting there do not exist as here for market and profit. Mining and crafting is much harder but is thing that have to be done if you want better gear. In many games there is entire clan working, grinding, gathering mats just to help single clan member.
Yes such things cant exist here because It's all about the money and greediness and so called entertainment is just an excuse.

** Well not only because player base but also because MA
-because they don't want to create society storage.
-because they don't want to create borrowing system where leader can claim back item even if society member is offline
-because MA don't want to create team hunting missions, society missions, iron missions distributing points etc.
Bad things for market? Are you here for entertainment or for money?

 

[DoA]

FFS just go and play those other games and stop posting your bs.... please.

Let me think about it...

Well, I did and guess what, the answer is... NO.

 

[Me Really Never]

If you say "tons", welll, at name me at least 10 other MMO's that have ben running for over 15 years.

Not claiming there arent, I just dont know them

PS, for me the RCE element is the only reason for me to stick to entropia.
WOW might be nice, but to play for "nothing" seems to be a waste of time for me.
I want it real. Real costs, real winnings.

It's the same as my regular poker night. We always play for real money, low stakes but at least for real money.

If we would play for just chips it simply wouldnt be as much fun.

wow added wow tokens you can buy with inagme gold and swap them for blizzard money with what you can buy other blizz games, ur sb fee and other blizz related stuff. or you can sell gold to one of the many gold buyers.

 

[mastermesh]

Other games mentioned... forsee locked thread coming soon.

 

[Jennson]

Just the ones that came through my mind on the spur of the moment (checked them all and all have 10+ years of activity, some going as far as 20+:

World of Warcraft
Lord of the Rings Online
Guild Wars I
Lineage II
EVE Online
Runescape
Ultima Online
Everquest I and II
Aion
Dungeons and Dragons Online
Age of Conan
Wurm Online

Now I don't say those are better than EU; I'm here, not there, so I think that's the best proof that I like EU more than any of them (and no, not because of a dream of making a profit). I'm just pointing out that there are tons of games which are doing just fine (I dare to say probably better than EU) without an added cash carrot incentive.

What is the pricetag to play these for a month, and what is the pricetag if you play these on highest level of gameplay? Maybe this is a problem, because i doubt most of these eat several thousand dollars each month, not in items, but in regular game activity.

 

[DoA]

What is the pricetag to play these for a month, and what is the pricetag if you play these on highest level of gameplay? Maybe this is a problem, because i doubt most of these eat several thousand dollars each month, not in items, but in regular game activity.

Since most of them have a cash shop, it pretty much depends on the level you want to play... from F2P if you really want to do repetitive tasks (like sweating in EU), to $10-$50 per month if you are a low/mid level player to a few hundred if you want to play at top level (skill boosters and alike)... definitely not thousands.

And that's the exact thing I'm talking about... if we would have only MA's rake and we wouldn't also have to support the profits of the people that are net withdrawers, then the cost to play all over the board would be lower... and would get more in line with the other games... imagine everyone having between 97% and 99% return rates... then the game would be affordable at almost any play level.

 

[CozMoDan]

Wrong.
There are many subscription games and so called free to play (web shop) games where you grind hard for entertainment and not for profit.
For challenge to be able to kill certain level mob, for avatar progress and his status in society - clan, for new skills, for new gear and materials for crafting armor, weapon and ammo
If you want better gear you can try to loot with very low chance or you can grind very long time to gather all mats and try to craft it witch ofc can fail and you loose part of mats and you are back on grinding.
Goal in such doing is not to withdrawal money but to have full geared ton and to be able to participate on siege or land grab how is called here,
Such games don't have pay to win model as here and don't have possibility to withdrawal so obviously have player base looking and paying for entertainment and not for profit.
Crafting there do not exist as here for market and profit. Mining and crafting is much harder but is thing that have to be done if you want better gear. In many games there is entire clan working, grinding, gathering mats just to help single clan member.
Yes such things cant exist here because It's all about the money and greediness and so called entertainment is just an excuse.

** Well not only because player base but also because MA
-because they don't want to create society storage.
-because they don't want to create borrowing system where leader can claim back item even if society member is offline
-because MA don't want to create team hunting missions, society missions, iron missions distributing points etc.
Bad things for market? Are you here for entertainment or for money?

Oh Danny boy how can an opinion be wrong ? That was my opinion and this is yours and they differ so what neither are wrong imo. Just because I disagree does not make me wrong or for sure doesn't make you right. Get over it and don't be a butt-head and call everyone who disagrees with you wrong.

As for the money who cares I am not on a budget and what I spend here will not make a hounds tooth difference in my life style. As I have said many, many times I like the game and like to play but I would not play if it wasn't for the money as that is the only way to keep score.

On A side note I agree with a lot of what you say but that still does not negate my opinion.

 

[CozMoDan]

Other games mentioned... forsee locked thread coming soon.

This is a good discussion and I hope we can just have the mods remove the offending posts.

 

[San]

This is a good discussion and I hope we can just have the mods remove the offending posts.

I don't see anything of the above as offending a rule (as in the spirit of the rule, rather the mere word). Sometimes you need examples to illustrate a point. However, we did go somewhat astray from the original topic.

 

[Dan59]

Oh Danny boy how can an opinion be wrong ? That was my opinion and this is yours and they differ so what neither are wrong imo. Just because I disagree does not make me wrong or for sure doesn't make you right. Get over it and don't be a butt-head and call everyone who disagrees with you wrong.

As for the money who cares I am not on a budget and what I spend here will not make a hounds tooth difference in my life style. As I have said many, many times I like the game and like to play but I would not play if it wasn't for the money as that is the only way to keep score.

On A side note I agree with a lot of what you say but that still does not negate my opinion.

"Wrong" was intended to mean that crafting and mining would still exist even without money as it exist in other games with different gaming model.

Gamblers have problem also in those others games to "keep score" so they adapt and do it on skills, materials and other in game things.

Btw who is butt-head Danny boy?

 

[The Abomb]

I'm actually not trying to tell anyone what their goal SHOULD be (and sorry if I make it look like this).

Instead, what I'm trying to point is that there COULD be other goals too, not just the money carrot on a stick (and that is proven by the vast number of people playing other, non-RCE MMOs), because a lot of people claimed here that the only reason someone should play EU is for profit.

Sellin loot has always been an added incentive for a game. Gaming is big money and a big draw to players who are older im 39. Diablo 2 was the game that started the virtual item sale on a massive scale. I have made more in Diablo and WoW then here.

I don't invest much time in games that i can't make money in or play for free. Just how myself and all my gamer friends are.

 

[DoA]

Sellin loot has always been an added incentive for a game. Gaming is big money and a big draw to players who are older im 39. Diablo 2 was the game that started the virtual item sale on a massive scale. I have made more in Diablo and WoW then here.

I don't invest much time in games that i can't make money in or play for free. Just how myself and all my gamer friends are.

The difference is that in all those scenarios you are getting said money consensually, from other people, as in they willingly pay for some tangible (well, how tangible a virtual item can be) goods or services; they knew exactly what they were getting and how much they were paying for that item or service. And I never said that this would be wrong in here, quite the opposite - I think you should be able to make a profit by selling your loot to other people for markup, by offering a service (anything starting with healing and ending with trading), by investing in a land area or something.

My only problem is with people making TT profit from just playing the game (example hunting for 100%+ return rates); those people make their profit from other players, but those other players are not consciously, willingly pay their profits, but they just have their money taken away and "redistributed", somehow similar to how taxes function in real life.



So, to resume:

- I am OK with paying MA's rake, because I understand they need money for servers and development and I don't have a problem if they end up making net profits this way because they are providing me an entertainment option that I enjoy;

- I am OK with paying you (or anyone else) for an item or a service you're providing to me and I don't have a problem if you end up making net profits this way because you are providing me a service that I want;

- I am NOT OK with subsidizing other people's profits (see Messi for example) by having lower returns myself and if MA would try to change this to no longer be possible I would definitely cheer for them doing so (and I'm sure many other non-elite players would agree with that; problem is that our kind of players doesn't really stay too much on forums)



Or to resume even further:

I'm OK to pay for my entertainment, but I'm not OK to also pay for your entertainment (eventually not only your in-game entertainment but also IRL entertainment once you get to spend the money you withdraw) *generic you, not you especially*