looter professions and their place in loot2.0

[Shamshe]

Hi all,

Me and some friends had a discussion about the looter professions in 2.0 and a lot of people said some different stuff. I would love to hear your takes on this stuff.

First point of discussion was how much does animal looter affects your tt returns. some said its up to 7% difference in returns between lvl 0-100 with lvl 100 netting you an average total return of 95% if you are over 3dpp and use high eff (80+).
Here is where our discussions started. Logicly I would assume that with this its possible to get over 100% tt return if you have the skills. This would mean well over lvl 100 in looter and have an eco setup. But then a friend told me looter professions get maxed at lvl 100 and you dont get any increase in returns after lvl 100 so it will never possible to profit in tt-returns anymore.

Is this true? do looter professions max out at lvl 100 and every lvls after that do'nt rly mean that much?
currently i am 64 animal looter so I wouldnt be able to tell but any experience on this from high lvl players with looter over 100?

so in short words has dpp from loot 1.0 swapped with skill in looter? or is it not possible to profit tt wise anymore?

~Sham

 

[SleePy]

I think only messi is at or over lvl 100 animal looter so you would have to ask him. Also you have your numbers wrong. MA released data stating that big cyclers average around 97% return. Which means some are over 97% and some under. Average for hunters that is not stated as big cyclers are ~95%.

A misconception that gets spread around (in my opinion) is that cycling more will give you higher TT return on its own. However i think its more likely to assume that high cyclers uses higher eff guns and have higher looter skills than the average players, and that alone would explain these returns MA have stated.

Also the 0-7% <-> lvl 0-100 is just a theory. Some testing concluded this, however its very hard to actually test. You would need to test a wide range of mobs lvl/stamina and also have several different looter lvls in the test. Also you would have to cycle a lot of peds to get accurate data, making this task nearly impossible.

 

[Shamshe]

I think only messi is at or over lvl 100 animal looter so you would have to ask him. Also you have your numbers wrong. MA released data stating that big cyclers average around 97% return. Which means some are over 97% and some under. Average for hunters that is not stated as big cyclers are ~95%.

only messi is over 100? thought there would be more by now
as for the numbers, we might have been off by 1 or 2% but the idea is still the same, can you get these numbers up if you are above lvl 100 looter and can you get looter so high you would be over 100% returns?

 

[Deemer]

It depends on how much HP is the mob you are hunting.

Basically everything is identical. The difference is the players of low, medium and high level.

If you play the game according to its rules (like high-level examples) at the beginning or in the middle. There are players who jump from one place to another for someone else's pool. In this case, you will always pay the highest tax on "non-taxable land". While players of high levels hunt long time for these calculations/examples.. so this is the most important thing, which make this game a shit in the begin.

As for the profession, level 1-82 and level 82-100 have the same weight, so theoretically at level 82 looter you will have a 3.5 / 7% bonus .. or in other words if you hunt in "non-taxable land", you lose you will cut in half.

There is no logical arithmetic 1-10 levels to have the same equivalent as 90-100 levels to assume that 10 levels are equal to 0.7%.

 

[SleePy]

only messi is over 100? thought there would be more by now
as for the numbers, we might have been off by 1 or 2% but the idea is still the same, can you get these numbers up if you are above lvl 100 looter and can you get looter so high you would be over 100% returns?

At least i think he's the only one. I remember seeing Evey being arch master (lvl 87-90) animal looter (i think). And he should be nr.2 since he cycle around messis numbers and has been for many years.

Does the contributing skill go over 10000 f.e. perception and serendipity? If so then it should be possible to go over 100. Is there lvl cap on any other profession where the contributing skills go over 10000?

 

[SleePy]

It depends on how much HP is the mob you are hunting.

Basically everything is identical. The difference is the players of low, medium and high level.

If you play the game according to its rules (like high-level examples) at the beginning or in the middle. There are players who jump from one place to another for someone else's pool. In this case, you will always pay the highest tax on "non-taxable land". While players of high levels hunt long time for these calculations/examples.. so this is the most important thing, which make this game a shit in the begin.

As for the profession, level 1-82 and level 82-100 have the same weight, so theoretically at level 82 looter you will have a 3.5 / 7% bonus .. or in other words if you hunt in "non-taxable land", you lose you will cut in half.

There is no logical arithmetic 1-10 levels to have the same equivalent as 90-100 levels to assume that 10 levels are equal to 0.7%.

I "agree" with you statement about hp contra looter lvl being the important one. A average animal looter player could hunt low hp mobs and have same return from looter lvl as someone being higher hunting the same mob. However a average animal looter would have much worse returns hunting to high hp mobs compared to the higher skilled player.

Not sure what you mean about taking from someones "personal pool", in my experience it all depends on where you are in your loot cycle. Someone can hunt same mob and global/hof when you are not because he is in a positive loot cycle and you are not. I don't believe in personal loot pool, however im sure there is a parameter that says how big multipliers you can get from the "main loot pool". This parameter increase when you have bad loot, and decrease when you have good loot. In the end it always average out to the returns you are supposed to be at.

All this is only my theory ofc since there hasnt been any statement about this from MA.

 

[Shamshe]

Is there lvl cap on any other profession where the contributing skills go over 100?

I heared agi was soft capped at 100. You can go over lvl 100 but you get the same benefits as being lvl 100 not sure if this is true or not just someone told me this.

 

[Deemer]

I "agree" with you statement about hp contra looter lvl being the important one. A average animal looter player could hunt low hp mobs and have same return from looter lvl as someone being higher hunting the same mob. However a average animal looter would have much worse returns hunting to high hp mobs compared to the higher skilled player.

Not sure what you mean about taking from someones "personal pool", in my experience it all depends on where you are in your loot cycle. Someone can hunt same mob and global/hof when you are not because he is in a positive loot cycle and you are not. I don't believe in personal loot pool, however im sure there is a parameter that says how big multipliers you can get from the "main loot pool". This parameter increase when you have bad loot, and decrease when you have good loot. In the end it always average out to the returns you are supposed to be at.

All this is only my theory ofc since there hasnt been any statement about this from MA.

A weekly test of Calypso for a TT pool on a puni mob .. which are the worst choice ... brought me a TT return over 100% every day.

I only played to understand the statement you are making.

This means that the fee that is charged is not personal, but belongs to the specific mob in the area.

PPSPS:

This is the most popular "style of play" in the low and middle levels. Many jumpers may not understand it correctly, but the land just takes its fee from someone. It is more likely to be than the one who plays by the game rules given in the examples in the forum.

There is not a good enough MU for these levels and therefore the game is considered Gambling.

 

[Shamshe]

A average animal looter player could hunt low hp mobs and have same return from looter lvl as someone being higher hunting the same mob. However a average animal looter would have much worse returns hunting to high hp mobs compared to the higher skilled player.

so you are saying animal looter is based on lvl ? so if I go hunt lets say ambu I should get better returns instead of hunting over lvl 60 (curently 61 on animal looter)

 

[SleePy]

so you are saying animal looter is based on lvl ? so if I go hunt lets say ambu I should get better returns instead of hunting over lvl 60 (curently 61 on animal looter)

Yes, but it's only my theory backed up with own experience and from people complaining about returns when hunting over their looter level. It would make sense for MA to implement it like this, otherwise a new player would have terrible returns.

 

[Deemer]

You people just forget that the game doesn't start with a 50% Looter and 3.4 DPP.
The people who who pay, for this very reason are leaving the game. And these who exploit it are here.
That's why your shops are full.

I play for less than 3 years, I have over 1kkk kills. But I have invested each of my profits in this period in various personal tests to understand the game from its practical part, not only from theoretical examples that I read.

Those who help in the forum are usually experienced and their losses are not like a new player, so there is no place for comparison.

Even after 2 months of hunting the same type of mobs by 95%, I can't cover my loss from the loot MU only... for the reasons above. Mobs with a better markup almost reach the loss but it is never enough. As long as I use the system with my little knowledge... like any fool in the game... I take over 100% TT profit.

Of course, I speak from personal experience, I do not trust anyone because everyone lies or hides the truth.

The game has huge potential because the TT of each item cannot exceed 100%. That's why I'm still playing.

 

[SleePy]

You people just forget that the game doesn't start with a 50% Looter and 3.4 DPP.
The people who who pay, for this very reason are leaving the game. And these who exploit it are here.
That's why your shops are full.

I play for less than 3 years, I have over 1kkk kills. But I have invested each of my profits in this period in various personal tests to understand the game from its practical part, not only from theoretical examples that I read.

Those who help in the forum are usually experienced and their losses are not like a new player, so there is no place for comparison.

Even after 2 months of hunting the same type of mobs by 95%, I can't cover my loss from the loot MU only... for the reasons above. Mobs with a better markup almost reach the loss but it is never enough. As long as I use the system with my little knowledge... like any fool in the game... I take over 100% TT profit.

Of course, I speak from personal experience, I do not trust anyone because everyone lies or hides the truth.

The game has huge potential because the TT of each item cannot exceed 100%. That's why I'm still playing.

I came back to this game this summer after quitting in 2010, i started with around 10 animal looter level, ive now grinded it up to 52, so i think ive gone through the experience of being a new player in the looter skill sense.

The big problem for the new player isnt looter level in my opinion as long as you hunt what you are supposed too, it's the lack of UL gear, meaning that they pay heaps on markup for L stuff. In my opinion markup on L gear is just lost peds, everytime you buy a L gear forget about the peds spent on markup because this is not something you get back. If you use L gear, track how much you loose on markup. I bet its more then u pay to MA.

You are getting off-topic now though, maybe we should try to keep to topic which is looter level and it's impact on loot.

 

[Deemer]

It would be good to indicate the UL equipment that is good for a profitable game for new player. Because this topic will be watched mainly by new players who may be mistaken about what is a good UL armor/ fap/weapon and their current prices... A new player to play profitably even after TT loss.

Also the good UL weapon will need some ammo.. how much will be ok for weekly run.. for example. The total of all this starter hunting? I'm curious, share the info please.

Even the topic of Looter profession all this is also very important part, because this is the main reason of these topics.

 

[Hego Damask]

It would be good to indicate the UL equipment that is good for a profitable game for new player.

BP-20 FEN
BC-30 Modified
LP-40 Perfected

those are 80-90% high eff guns, with low lvl starting SIB at lvl 20-30.
however, no guarantee for profit after MU, as a new player will also be low level on looter skills too, but sure will be less cost to skill up to the point, where you will be able to reach profit with MU

Im too looking for one of them to try out this, but they are not available too often.
Also cheapest of them is cost around 18-20k these days.

How much is needed per week is depending on You mostly, which gun, amp, how many hours per week.
All of their stats can be found on wiki.

Check cost of use (ammo + decay)
Check use per minutes
Decide how many hours per week.
Multiple them = how much you need for weekly run.

 

[SleePy]

Just a few % manage to be profitable in this game when it comes to hunting. Not only do you need good expensive gear and skills to use it. You need to save in on eveything that doesnt add value. Like never use enhancers. All ur gear have to be UL.

Also you will have to grind your ass off in mayhen for boxes and tokens, and also get some top 3 finishes in annihilation for placement tokens. After grinding the mayhems for two years u can buy a nice gear from the vendor to sell. Maybe then you are in profit. ?

 

[MsPudding]

TT returns depend on two things

1) weapon efficiency
2) looter skills

The higher efficiency weapon used and the higher looter skills you have will yield better results. What amount do each of those impact loot? I really don't know for certain, but lets take a guess that looter skills have up to a 3% impact on loot returns, because that sounds good!

I'll share my recent returns and setup/skills, maybe actual numbers can help shine a light. I cycled about 400,000 PED tt from Dec 1st, 2020, until Jan 12th, 2021, and got 98.34% tt returned. I used an Argonaut Strong Claw (81.5% efficient) with a 65 animal looter. I killed almost exclusively Mayhem Daikiba during this time. Had anyone else but Ford ZippO LincolnMercury sold me that claw, my returns would have been so much worse. So in conclusion, only buy weapons from ZippO.

You know who may have some insight on this? LT. He's about 10x smarter than most when it comes to numbers, and he's pretty good at solving questions like the one you raise.

 

[Deemer]

TT returns depend on two things...

Neo says: Stop the bullets to Q1

 

[Evey]

Just to clear some things up:

- dpp has no role in tt return, but it's still essential;
- there's no proof, yet, that the looter is not linear;
- there's no proof of level mob having any connection with the tt return taking looter level into equation (looter having to be above mob level), I don't believe such a thing. I had good results on higher level mobs too. Higher level mobs will definately have much higher volatility so that will automatically make the loot seem worse on a bad run, but loot will also be awesome on a good run. Loot is the same imo, given enough looting events happen.
- players that jump from one mob to another don't loose for someone else's pool as loot is in the looter, not in the mob, area, server w/e.
- there are at least 2 players above 100 looter, I'm not top3

It's equally important to invest in looter as it's important to get the highest effi weapon your budget allows but consistency is more important than looter, efficiency or dpp.

 

[allarom]

Also the 0-7% <-> lvl 0-100 is just a theory. Some testing concluded this, however its very hard to actually test. You would need to test a wide range of mobs lvl/stamina and also have several different looter lvls in the test. Also you would have to cycle a lot of peds to get accurate data, making this task nearly impossible.

You can literally test it with one mob and with few shots...

- there's no proof of level mob having any connection with the tt return taking looter level into equation (looter having to be above mob level), I don't believe such

It's tested and there is no connection between looter and mob level

 

[SleePy]

You can literally test it with one mob and with few shots...



It's tested and there is no connection between looter and mob level

Source please, i give my theories, you claim to know the truth. So if you claim to know the truth then you need to give source to these tests.

Ofc you cant test with a few shots, player loot varies over time, one can loot good and another loot bad on same mob. How do you know that they are exactly in the same loot cycle, or that the input into the mob that then get "multiplied" always has the same "weight".

 

[SleePy]

Just to clear some things up:

- dpp has no role in tt return, but it's still essential;

Yes, this has been confirmed by MA so no need for speculation on this one. (ofc they can always change things without letting us know)

- there's no proof, yet, that the looter is not linear;
- there's no proof of level mob having any connection with the tt return taking looter level into equation (looter having to be above mob level), I don't believe such a thing. I had good results on higher level mobs too. Higher level mobs will definately have much higher volatility so that will automatically make the loot seem worse on a bad run, but loot will also be awesome on a good run. Loot is the same imo, given enough looting events happen.

I guess this is aimed at my theories since im the only one that's been talking about this,, i think ive made it clear in every post that it's just my theories. But good of you to clarify that further. For looter lvl contra mob lvl, the reason i think this has a role in loot is that so many that complain about bad loot returns are hunting big with relative low looter lvl. This could just be a matter of amount cycled too ofc, they didnt average out. Also in my opinion the opposite havent been proven either, even though some will claim it has.

- players that jump from one mob to another don't loose for someone else's pool as loot is in the looter, not in the mob, area, server w/e.

I think this claim can be more or less claimed as truth by now, given the amount of big cyclers claiming the same thing. If you are a big cycler and not agree with this please speak up. Would love to hear other peoples experiences.

- there are at least 2 players above 100 looter, I'm not top3

Ok thank you to clear that out.

It's equally important to invest in looter as it's important to get the highest effi weapon your budget allows but consistency is more important than looter, efficiency or dpp.

Why is consistency more important then anything? I know it will take a large amount of mobs to kill if you want to be sure that it will average out. But in the end you get there even if u cycle less. Or do you think there is some "decay" over time in your loot cycle, i.e. you cycle less you get less returns even after killing enough mobs to average out? (given same looter lvl and eff.)

 

[Stefan 008 Bond]

You can literally test it with one mob and with few shots...



It's tested and there is no connection between looter and mob level

1. No, no you can't

2. Why wouldnt there be? You really think it takes lvl 100 looter to max out returns on a snable? You think you would get max returns on the hussk at lvl 100?

 

[Evey]

Why is consistency more important then anything? I know it will take a large amount of mobs to kill if you want to be sure that it will average out.

A lot of people invest heavy in good tools and expect the results to show up a lot sooner then give up when these results fail to appear.
Good results are when the markup pushes you over the 100% mark, constantly and consistently, over heavy cycles, not when you shoot MU-less mobs just because they have low volatility giving you a sense of very good tt return at 99% maybe but over tiny cycles.

As for the mob lvl vs. my looter level, if there's a mob 10 times higher than my looter level, but has markup, I'd go berserk on that mob any day, tt return% would become a lo less important.

 

[allarom]

Source please, i give my theories, you claim to know the truth. So if you claim to know the truth then you need to give source to these tests.

Ofc you cant test with a few shots, player loot varies over time, one can loot good and another loot bad on same mob. How do you know that they are exactly in the same loot cycle, or that the input into the mob that then get "multiplied" always has the same "weight".

Are you sure? take one guy with lvl 100 looter, another one with lvl 110 looter. You shoot once or twice with the same weapon (do not let the mob hit you). 3rd guy finishing the mob. Now you have 2 guys who did the exact input. If both gets the same tt shrapnel (obviously there can't be more in loot than shrapnel) It's capped at 100. If there are difference then 7% is not capped at lvl 100. makes sense?

1. No, no you can't

2. Why wouldnt there be? You really think it takes lvl 100 looter to max out returns on a snable? You think you would get max returns on the hussk at lvl 100?

1. read above
2. if it's capped to 100 then yes. I did tests the same way as stated above (i lvl 20 and other guy lvl 60). no matter if we did it on lvl 1 mobs or lvl 40, we had always exact same % of shrapnel difference.

Feel free to think before you write guys

 

[Sirhc]

My looter skill was relatively low since my return to active play after a very long break. This might not be what happens to everyone but the only thing I noticed after my looter skill hit a certain level ( I don't want to necessarily call out the level since it might be variable for each avatar) was the loot composition changed. TT returns always seem to fluctuate some days bad, other days just meh, and then once in a great while you have a great day or a string of decent days based on just TT return. I know this is anecdotal since I really don't track every pec and item in loot but lately I've noticed more markup resources in loot. It makes sense to me that the better your looter skill the better loot composition based on the level you have and I wouldn't have really noticed it aside from my inventory becoming more active lately (more resources less shrapnel outside of globals). TT+ markup helps keep you afloat if you manage your inventory and PED card correctly.

Mining has always been this way, I've had atrocious mining runs saved from resource composition and markup when sold. Remembering where those resources are help out a lot and hunting is similar in that respect, knowing what loot is trending and what can be sold above TT and make a so-so day much better. Higher mining skills have always helped me find a greater variety of mining resources since I know where they are. Higher looter skills seem to have a similar effect but it might not be as noticeable as your levels increase since everything slows the higher you get.

I don't think there is a magic level where you are consistently getting 100% TT value back which makes sense. Part of playing EU has always been about weathering the loot doldrums and capitalizing on the great loot when it shows up no matter what level you play at. One thing I've noticed is the Mayhem instances I have participated in they tend to trend towards more shrapnel in loot so they might be coded to optimize that experience with less work to the servers to calculate loot compositions.

 

[ImUp2Mischief]

Please can someone link the official dev notes in which looter profs were introduced, cant find it anywhere, thank you

 

[SleePy]

Feel free to think before you write guys

Same back to you then, that was just a stupid statement. Obv we think a lot before replying in thread. A more correct reply would be to test it before you write, but this is a place for discussion..

Now i dont trust your little experiment unless you can provide data to back it up. Also if it was this easy a multitude of ppl would have come to the same conclusion, since a lot of people like to test these things. Also when did you test this? Things change...

 

[Stefan 008 Bond]

Are you sure? take one guy with lvl 100 looter, another one with lvl 110 looter. You shoot once or twice with the same weapon (do not let the mob hit you). 3rd guy finishing the mob. Now you have 2 guys who did the exact input. If both gets the same tt shrapnel (obviously there can't be more in loot than shrapnel) It's capped at 100. If there are difference then 7% is not capped at lvl 100. makes sense?



1. read above
2. if it's capped to 100 then yes. I did tests the same way as stated above (i lvl 20 and other guy lvl 60). no matter if we did it on lvl 1 mobs or lvl 40, we had always exact same % of shrapnel difference.

Feel free to think before you write guys

Lol, you assume to know how the underlying loot 2.0 mechanics work that you are trying to improve with looter skill, you probably don't.
I was extensively testing 2.0 when it first arrived, its not the same as 1.0 obviously. Are you even aware of the loot gaps to be found in normal (non multiplied) loot? Probably not... are we so sure this 7% looter affect is constant and not subject to a dice roll? No we are not.. I could go on..

Dont be so dismissive...

 

[Hego Damask]

Please can someone link the official dev notes in which looter profs were introduced, cant find it anywhere, thank you

It was 3 post above you, in Evey's signature

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...statments-pertaining-to-loot-post-2-0.263346/

 

[ImUp2Mischief]

It was 3 post above you, in Evey's signature

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...statments-pertaining-to-loot-post-2-0.263346/

Already read that, that is regarding loot 2.0 introduction it does not include the official statement about looter professions that was added later.