LP80 perfected ... a surprising number crunching

Msturlese · Aug 7, 2021

[EDITED: read also subsequent posts regarding MU effect on the item returns]

I saw the LP80 on AH, surprised of the "outrageous" 250.89% MU and grabbed a coffee and my excel

i miss some levels but i considered "i am today 85, and i need a (L) pistol
data are from 2021-08-07 auction, entropiawiki and errors are from my brain

results were REALLY surprising to me... not only LP80 is more powerful in term of DPS, not only has over 26% eff more
BUT.... at 250.89% still is MORE ECO than listed BP80, BP75, BP60 (they are just 3rd decimal under laser equivalent but
no cheap Laser pistol was on AH, consider that no LP Armatrix goes over 3.00 MU DPP so it is a negligible difference.

if we look just at bullet cost of the same lvl 80 competitor, for same cost we got (95.6-87)/1.4389 = 5.9767 DMG more
and a nice 26%+ more eff

i copy below the numbers.
MU bullet cost in pecs is ((decay*MU/100)+(cells/100))
MU DPP is standard Wiki formula (DMG / Mu bullet / 1.4389)

Weapon	MU	DMG	Decay	Cells	TT Bullet	MU Bullet	TT DPP	MU DPP	EFF
LP80perf	250,89	95,60	1,39	1.707	18,46	20,56	3,599	3,232	94,5
BP80	129,09	87,00	1,511	1.860	20,11	20,55	3,007	2,942	68
BP75	121,94	84,00	1,457	1.798	19,44	19,76	3,004	2,955	67,6
BP60	118,40	75,00	1,305	1.609	17,40	17,64	2,997	2,956	66,4

Katie Chalmers · Aug 7, 2021

You may get better dpec but you also have and additional 1.5x the weapon decay value in pure markup that is not factored into loot returns.. Your eff or loot composition won't compensate you enough for that.

Doing some rough calcs using your numbers here. Killing one 1000hp mob.
Back of the envelope here so correct me on any errors please.

LP80 Perf:
Cost to kill 2.7785 PED
Returned loot @98% 2.7229 PED
Weapon decay 0.2092 PED
Lost markup @250% 0.3138 PED
Net Loss inc markup: 0.3694 PED

BP80:
Cost to kill: 3.3255
Returned loot: @95%: 3.159295
Weapon decay: 0.2564
Lost Markup @129: 0.0743
Net Loss inc markup: 0.2406

I have factored in the efficiency gain to loot returns, not exact, but you get the idea, so the only factor that remains is do you generate more loot composition to justify that loss. My gut tells me no. But would love to hear peoples experiences.
I think their markup is so high because its new and "ohhh my efficiency is better than messis". Wait for the hype to die down and maybe you can get at a better deal.

Apologies to Eve who sells these things. Hope I haven't lost you a customer.

Thark · Aug 7, 2021

I guess it always depends on which theory you subscribe to but I personally would probably object to that way of calculating the "worth" of my L weapons too.

Id probably go something like this:

LP-80 Perf has 11871 uses with 165 TT and taking your MU of 250%. Totally using up one of those pistols means you lost 247.5PED (TT*MU-TT) in unrecoverable MU. You can cycle 2191.38PED with one of these guns. Doing the same math with an Armatrix BP-80 yields 36.3 PEDs lost in MU for a 2130,35 cycle until the gun breaks. (Edit: Dang it, I looked at the wrong row in your table and took the 122% MU instead of the 129% for the BP80, but anyway, my point stays the same. Im too lazy to do the math again because of 7% MU.)

Lost MU LP80Perf: 247,50
Lost MU BP-80: 36,30

Say, theoretically, youd have a 92% TT return with those Armatrix guns, then 2130,35*,92 means you got back 1959,92. minus the lost MU is 1923,62.
The same for the LP-80 Perf yields an end result of 1768,57 ped.

At 92% TT Return, 100 to 0 % gun run including weapon MU:
Result after run LP80Perf: 80,7%
Result after run BP-80: 90,3%

Now solving this for the needed % TT return to have the same results with both guns gives us: 99,075% TT return. That to me means, you need to get 99.08% TT returns with the LP-80 Perf at 250% in order to rival the Armatrix BP-80 (at 122%MU) at 92% TT return with Armatrix eff. This obviously does not take into account the "better" loot contribution of a higher dpp but I cant imagine a few more oils will bring that down much. Also, you'll need even better returns, if you were already getting more than 92% from your Armatrix gun. Eventually the additional Eff would have to get you above 100% TT Return even. (With these numbers that happens to be when your Armatrix returns grow to 92,96%)

At 92% TT return for Armatrix BP-80, you'd need 99.07% tt return with the LP-80 perf to get the same result.

Armatrix Cycle	ArM TT Return	Lost MU	Return incl Weap MU	Needed % TT Return on LP80 perf
			(ArM Cycle * Return - Lost MU)	(Return incl Weap MU + Lost MU on LP80 perf) / LP80 perf cycle
2130,35	92,00%	36,3	1923,622	99,08%
2130,35	92,10%	36,3	1925,75235	99,17%
2130,35	92,20%	36,3	1927,8827	99,27%
2130,35	92,30%	36,3	1930,01305	99,37%
2130,35	92,40%	36,3	1932,1434	99,46%
2130,35	92,50%	36,3	1934,27375	99,56%
2130,35	92,60%	36,3	1936,4041	99,66%
2130,35	92,70%	36,3	1938,53445	99,76%
2130,35	92,80%	36,3	1940,6648	99,85%
2130,35	92,90%	36,3	1942,79515	99,95%
2130,35	92,91%	36,3	1943,008185	99,96%
2130,35	92,92%	36,3	1943,22122	99,97%
2130,35	92,93%	36,3	1943,434255	99,98%
2130,35	92,94%	36,3	1943,64729	99,99%
2130,35	92,95%	36,3	1943,860325	100,00%
2130,35	92,96%	36,3	1944,07336	100,01%
2130,35	92,97%	36,3	1944,286395	100,02%
2130,35	92,98%	36,3	1944,49943	100,03%
2130,35	92,99%	36,3	1944,712465	100,04%
2130,35	93,00%	36,3	1944,9255	100,05%
2130,35	93,10%	36,3	1947,05585	100,14%
2130,35	93,20%	36,3	1949,1862	100,24%
2130,35	93,30%	36,3	1951,31655	100,34%
2130,35	93,40%	36,3	1953,4469	100,44%
2130,35	93,50%	36,3	1955,57725	100,53%
2130,35	93,60%	36,3	1957,7076	100,63%
2130,35	93,70%	36,3	1959,83795	100,73%
2130,35	93,80%	36,3	1961,9683	100,83%
2130,35	93,90%	36,3	1964,09865	100,92%
2130,35	94,00%	36,3	1966,229	101,02%
2130,35	94,10%	36,3	1968,35935	101,12%
2130,35	94,20%	36,3	1970,4897	101,21%
2130,35	94,30%	36,3	1972,62005	101,31%
2130,35	94,40%	36,3	1974,7504	101,41%
2130,35	94,50%	36,3	1976,88075	101,51%
2130,35	94,60%	36,3	1979,0111	101,60%
2130,35	94,70%	36,3	1981,14145	101,70%
2130,35	94,80%	36,3	1983,2718	101,80%
2130,35	94,90%	36,3	1985,40215	101,89%
2130,35	95,00%	36,3	1987,5325	101,99%
2130,35	95,10%	36,3	1989,66285	102,09%
2130,35	95,20%	36,3	1991,7932	102,19%
2130,35	95,30%	36,3	1993,92355	102,28%
2130,35	95,40%	36,3	1996,0539	102,38%
2130,35	95,50%	36,3	1998,18425	102,48%
2130,35	95,60%	36,3	2000,3146	102,58%
2130,35	95,70%	36,3	2002,44495	102,67%
2130,35	95,80%	36,3	2004,5753	102,77%
2130,35	95,90%	36,3	2006,70565	102,87%
2130,35	96,00%	36,3	2008,836	102,96%
2130,35	96,10%	36,3	2010,96635	103,06%
2130,35	96,20%	36,3	2013,0967	103,16%
2130,35	96,30%	36,3	2015,22705	103,26%
2130,35	96,40%	36,3	2017,3574	103,35%
2130,35	96,50%	36,3	2019,48775	103,45%
2130,35	96,60%	36,3	2021,6181	103,55%
2130,35	96,70%	36,3	2023,74845	103,64%
2130,35	96,80%	36,3	2025,8788	103,74%
2130,35	96,90%	36,3	2028,00915	103,84%
2130,35	97,00%	36,3	2030,1395	103,94%
2130,35	97,10%	36,3	2032,26985	104,03%
2130,35	97,20%	36,3	2034,4002	104,13%
2130,35	97,30%	36,3	2036,53055	104,23%
2130,35	97,40%	36,3	2038,6609	104,33%
2130,35	97,50%	36,3	2040,79125	104,42%
2130,35	97,60%	36,3	2042,9216	104,52%
2130,35	97,70%	36,3	2045,05195	104,62%
2130,35	97,80%	36,3	2047,1823	104,71%
2130,35	97,90%	36,3	2049,31265	104,81%
2130,35	98,00%	36,3	2051,443	104,91%
2130,35	98,10%	36,3	2053,57335	105,01%
2130,35	98,20%	36,3	2055,7037	105,10%
2130,35	98,30%	36,3	2057,83405	105,20%
2130,35	98,40%	36,3	2059,9644	105,30%
2130,35	98,50%	36,3	2062,09475	105,39%
2130,35	98,60%	36,3	2064,2251	105,49%
2130,35	98,70%	36,3	2066,35545	105,59%
2130,35	98,80%	36,3	2068,4858	105,69%
2130,35	98,90%	36,3	2070,61615	105,78%
2130,35	99,00%	36,3	2072,7465	105,88%

I dunno, haven't been using L for a while now but I think thats what I would be thinking.

I think the math is correct, someone check tho, im a little hung over.

Cheers

Msturlese · Aug 7, 2021

@Kaite that is a good point and the reason for this line

Msturlese said:
if we look just at bullet cost of the same lvl 80 competitor, for same cost we got (95.6-87)/1.4389 = 5.9767 DMG more
and a nice 26%+ more eff

And you pose a nice argument

Katie Chalmers said:
You may get better dpec but you also have and additional 1.5x the weapon decay value in pure markup that is not factored into loot returns.. Your eff or loot composition won't compensate you enough for that.

Let's see how much it is indeed . considering same MU in AH, the cost for shot of BP 80 equivalent would be 15.733
so a 2 pec overhead should still be profitable, but maybe i am still sleeping
i adjusted for a (95.6/87) damage factor and (1860/1707) saved cell factor
overhead is 0.44 for the BP80 and 2.09 for lp80p

but maybe i am in need of more caffeine

Weapon	MU	DMG	Decay	Cells	Bullet	Adj 4 dmg/cell
LP80perf	250,89	95,60	1,39	1.707	20,557	17,145
BP80	129,09	87,00	1,511	1.860	20,551	20,551

Weapon	MU	DMG	Decay	Cells	Bullet	Adj 4 dmg/cell
LP80perf	129,09	95,60	1,39	1.707	18,864	15,733
BP80	129,09	87,00	1,511	1.860	20,551	20,551

Katie Chalmers · Aug 7, 2021

Msturlese said:
@Kaite that is a good point and the reason for this line

And you pose a nice argument

Let's see how much it is indeed . considering same MU in AH, the cost for shot of BP 80 equivalent would be 15.733
so a 2 pec overhead should still be profitable, but maybe i am still sleeping
i adjusted for a (95.6/87) damage factor and (160/1707) saved cell factor
overhead is 0.44 for the BP80 and 2.09 for lp80p

but maybe i am in need of more caffeine

Weapon MU DMG Decay Cells Bullet Adj 4 dmg/cell
LP80perf 250,89 95,60
1,39
1.707 20,557 17,145
BP80 129,09 87,00
1,511
1.860 20,551 20,551

Weapon MU DMG Decay Cells Bullet Adj 4 dmg/cell
LP80perf 129,09 95,60
1,39
1.707 18,864 15,733
BP80 129,09 87,00
1,511
1.860 20,551 20,551

I cant say i followed your maths here. Maybe I am tired too but you definitely work it out differently than me. You may of not seen my edited post where I run the maths on the profitability in a case by case scenario. Cheapness of dealt damage isn't the only factor here, I don't think you are factoring in overall net returns. Remember as your dpec rises your gross returns will drop for the same damage dealt.

Msturlese · Aug 7, 2021

used Katie numbers to make a second calculation : MU overhead is the same
but if i consider a HIGHER markup of (0.314-0.073) = 0.241
and a lower cost to kill of (3.399-3.094) = 0.305
it is where our thoughts fork. to me i am saving due to lower cost

i get your principle that bring the MU as totally lost toward cost of kill and pose an equivalent (129 * 1.09*1.1 ) = 154% PLUS EFF BONUS
and that the lesser cost to kill brings not back the loot composition to repay
and for sure i would never buy it so i underlined that i was just looking at cost per bullet.

i put into accoutn also the very nice table from Thark and is pointing in a similar direction
(the eff impact should be in the (seems linear from otehr posts) 1.82% more loot based on 26*0.07%
need to reduce the MU to under 180% to account for DPP and EFF to be a purchase with no risk

I dont care of personal names of sellers, the bet of buyers is on special loot unlocked in special situations from DPP and EFF
who buy this probabaly does not use it to skill and grind.

thanks for the commetns and nice calcs guys i will put an order in AH at 110% for when i reach level

HP	Shots	MU Shot	MU Cost	Overhead
1000	15,05	20,56	3,094	0,314
1000	16,54	20,55	3,399	0,073

Thark · Aug 7, 2021

I think I made a mistake, since the cycles for both guns are different, the results are even worse. and at 92% Armatrix tt Return, youd already need 101,59% TT return with the LP80perfected. Im gonna stop now, too hung over for this right now. Maybe you guys can sort it out and Ill read the results tomorrow xD

here is the hopefully now correct table again anyway:
Looks more complicated than it is, you could reduce the last term but I dont wanna

Armatrix Cycle	ArM TT Return	Lost MU	Return incl Weap MU	% Return including weapon MU	Needed % TT Return on LP80 perf
			(ArM Cycle * Return - Lost MU)	(Return incl Weapon MU / Armatrix Cycle	(% Return including weapon MU * LP80perf Cycle + Lost MU on LP80perf)/LP80perf cycle
2130,35	92,00%	36,3	1923,622	90,30%	101,59%
2130,35	92,10%	36,3	1925,75235	90,40%	101,69%
2130,35	92,20%	36,3	1927,8827	90,50%	101,79%
2130,35	92,30%	36,3	1930,01305	90,60%	101,89%
2130,35	92,40%	36,3	1932,1434	90,70%	101,99%
2130,35	92,50%	36,3	1934,27375	90,80%	102,09%
2130,35	92,60%	36,3	1936,4041	90,90%	102,19%
2130,35	92,70%	36,3	1938,53445	91,00%	102,29%
2130,35	92,80%	36,3	1940,6648	91,10%	102,39%
2130,35	92,90%	36,3	1942,79515	91,20%	102,49%
2130,35	92,91%	36,3	1943,008185	91,21%	102,50%
2130,35	92,92%	36,3	1943,22122	91,22%	102,51%
2130,35	92,93%	36,3	1943,434255	91,23%	102,52%
2130,35	92,94%	36,3	1943,64729	91,24%	102,53%
2130,35	92,95%	36,3	1943,860325	91,25%	102,54%
2130,35	92,96%	36,3	1944,07336	91,26%	102,55%
2130,35	92,97%	36,3	1944,286395	91,27%	102,56%
2130,35	92,98%	36,3	1944,49943	91,28%	102,57%
2130,35	92,99%	36,3	1944,712465	91,29%	102,58%
2130,35	93,00%	36,3	1944,9255	91,30%	102,59%
2130,35	93,10%	36,3	1947,05585	91,40%	102,69%
2130,35	93,20%	36,3	1949,1862	91,50%	102,79%
2130,35	93,30%	36,3	1951,31655	91,60%	102,89%
2130,35	93,40%	36,3	1953,4469	91,70%	102,99%
2130,35	93,50%	36,3	1955,57725	91,80%	103,09%
2130,35	93,60%	36,3	1957,7076	91,90%	103,19%
2130,35	93,70%	36,3	1959,83795	92,00%	103,29%
2130,35	93,80%	36,3	1961,9683	92,10%	103,39%
2130,35	93,90%	36,3	1964,09865	92,20%	103,49%
2130,35	94,00%	36,3	1966,229	92,30%	103,59%
2130,35	94,10%	36,3	1968,35935	92,40%	103,69%
2130,35	94,20%	36,3	1970,4897	92,50%	103,79%
2130,35	94,30%	36,3	1972,62005	92,60%	103,89%
2130,35	94,40%	36,3	1974,7504	92,70%	103,99%
2130,35	94,50%	36,3	1976,88075	92,80%	104,09%
2130,35	94,60%	36,3	1979,0111	92,90%	104,19%
2130,35	94,70%	36,3	1981,14145	93,00%	104,29%
2130,35	94,80%	36,3	1983,2718	93,10%	104,39%
2130,35	94,90%	36,3	1985,40215	93,20%	104,49%
2130,35	95,00%	36,3	1987,5325	93,30%	104,59%
2130,35	95,10%	36,3	1989,66285	93,40%	104,69%
2130,35	95,20%	36,3	1991,7932	93,50%	104,79%
2130,35	95,30%	36,3	1993,92355	93,60%	104,89%
2130,35	95,40%	36,3	1996,0539	93,70%	104,99%
2130,35	95,50%	36,3	1998,18425	93,80%	105,09%
2130,35	95,60%	36,3	2000,3146	93,90%	105,19%
2130,35	95,70%	36,3	2002,44495	94,00%	105,29%
2130,35	95,80%	36,3	2004,5753	94,10%	105,39%
2130,35	95,90%	36,3	2006,70565	94,20%	105,49%
2130,35	96,00%	36,3	2008,836	94,30%	105,59%
2130,35	96,10%	36,3	2010,96635	94,40%	105,69%
2130,35	96,20%	36,3	2013,0967	94,50%	105,79%
2130,35	96,30%	36,3	2015,22705	94,60%	105,89%
2130,35	96,40%	36,3	2017,3574	94,70%	105,99%
2130,35	96,50%	36,3	2019,48775	94,80%	106,09%
2130,35	96,60%	36,3	2021,6181	94,90%	106,19%
2130,35	96,70%	36,3	2023,74845	95,00%	106,29%
2130,35	96,80%	36,3	2025,8788	95,10%	106,39%
2130,35	96,90%	36,3	2028,00915	95,20%	106,49%
2130,35	97,00%	36,3	2030,1395	95,30%	106,59%
2130,35	97,10%	36,3	2032,26985	95,40%	106,69%
2130,35	97,20%	36,3	2034,4002	95,50%	106,79%
2130,35	97,30%	36,3	2036,53055	95,60%	106,89%
2130,35	97,40%	36,3	2038,6609	95,70%	106,99%
2130,35	97,50%	36,3	2040,79125	95,80%	107,09%
2130,35	97,60%	36,3	2042,9216	95,90%	107,19%
2130,35	97,70%	36,3	2045,05195	96,00%	107,29%
2130,35	97,80%	36,3	2047,1823	96,10%	107,39%
2130,35	97,90%	36,3	2049,31265	96,20%	107,49%
2130,35	98,00%	36,3	2051,443	96,30%	107,59%
2130,35	98,10%	36,3	2053,57335	96,40%	107,69%
2130,35	98,20%	36,3	2055,7037	96,50%	107,79%
2130,35	98,30%	36,3	2057,83405	96,60%	107,89%
2130,35	98,40%	36,3	2059,9644	96,70%	107,99%
2130,35	98,50%	36,3	2062,09475	96,80%	108,09%
2130,35	98,60%	36,3	2064,2251	96,90%	108,19%
2130,35	98,70%	36,3	2066,35545	97,00%	108,29%
2130,35	98,80%	36,3	2068,4858	97,10%	108,39%
2130,35	98,90%	36,3	2070,61615	97,20%	108,49%
2130,35	99,00%	36,3	2072,7465	97,30%	108,59%

sorry, and cheers

Jhereg · Aug 7, 2021

Eff reduction calculated based on (MU% of cost per shot)*(100/7)

One of the main benefits is the ease at maxing (you can use at a lower level to get a big dps boost)

Evey · Aug 7, 2021

There are various angles to look at this and as with everything else, some tools are just for some specific cases, we don't have one size fits all and that is a good thing.

To make one of these you require one regular LP80 which is 139% + ~ 5 hours of hard, annoying instance, top gear and skills and a team of other 4 people very well geared (and not every run drops one). And you can't really spam these so what' one of those tokens worth is hard to say...

I understand the math for efficiency and dpp is important but without dps, for me, dpp and efficency doesn't mean much as dps without efficiency also doesn't mean much. Having high efficiency alone will also only get you to look at the tt return while you should be looking at you efficiency while cycling large stacks of ammo. But makes sense, efficiency is something that you can quantify with basic tests, dps is not.

A LP 100 t0 is probably 150 - 200k. This has same dps, at 15 levels sooner and 10% extra efficiency. You can't get a LP100 but you can get these (possibly at a lower price too); they are definitely not for everyone, they are defiantly not cheap so not suited for doing dailies and such and that is OK. It could be that I'm biased on these guns, but a great balance of dps, eff and dpp works really well for me. And LP80 perf is in another league with that efficiency...

About the price, I really don't know what's the best % for everyone, crafters, hunters and token farmers.. maybe there will be some time before there's a constant supply and demand stream... but until then, for the reasons stated in this thread and also by me above, both 'price too high' and 'price is decent' are true, just for different perspectives....

Msturlese · Aug 7, 2021

I did not even know the production is so difficult i thought it was just another random (L) BP
as i said fromt eh PURE cost per bullet it is really good
on a cost to kill ag MU imho its still ok with some reserves
That is need a decent MU monster to kill or other special situations.
i agree 100% it is not for doing daily token missions, would be insane waste.
the calculations were in fact
what price makes this weapon equal to a L80 (L) ? we got the answer, it is about 170ish percent
at that price you can use to do dailys
over that need some "common sense" to see when to use that tool (it holds larger amp, more eff, less ammo, higher dpp)
i can travel in Dacia or in Ferrari. for some activity a ferrari is mandatory.

Evey · Aug 7, 2021

Msturlese said:
I did not even know the production is so difficult i thought it was just another random (L) BP

I should clarify, you get one token per run from last boss (but not always) and being in 5 people you need 5 runs so you can get with one token after splitting. And the instances are pretty hard even for people with top gear, there are complex mechanics, that require team coordination and strategy, you can't semiafk with Netflix and next target some big mobs...

Deemer · Aug 7, 2021

Thus, if Dynamics has an average 95% return, then these good weapons will save us about a penny.
So, the Dynamics rate is not so important than to save a penny.
It's so nice to see topics that miss the main element in the calculation.
It's like buying something from somewhere because there is a 5% discount without being aware of its final price.
Instructive topic, thanks.

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