MA taking a commision off my sales????

[Nicole]

Your point being??

As in real life, just because you own a market stall doesn't mean that you own the LAND that it is placed upon.

From the Client Loader:

a fee is also paid to the landowner (not to be confused with the shop owner)

Burnsey is therefore the owner of "SHOP: Hadesheim Marketplace #8" and NOT the landowner.

Well to be honest when I was looking into buying an shop / stall in Hadesim there was no signs that I was not buying the land, in fact the visualization thing showed the land that I assumed I would owned?


What’s next the land in my Hangar & around it is not mine? The land for my house is not mine?


In real life with things like this it has to be clearly stated that you are not owning the land.

The way I see it never once did MA say that you where only buying the stall for Hadisem, it was always implied you where buying the land. Now for MA to say that is not the case?!?!

 

[KapokWu]

Are you sure Burnseye that you will get that tax in a weekly or a monthly
payment. I have understood that the landowners don't get the steady
incomes but periodical payments.

Info us if you see the tax coming to you. If it is not coming, then it goes
to MA or it is a bug.

 

[Xeio]

Why does everyone assume that any time a new fee comes up it all goes to MA? Maybe it just goes to the lootpool? This has been debated about auction fees, decay, ect. so many times already. So its a new system, if you dont like it, dont use it. Obviously if everyone stop using their shops because of the fee, MA would probably remove it (though its really a matter of decay vs. fee), but good luck getting that to happen.

 

[Polynices]

i agree.
i dont think we will see anything else than low end item ( price under 100 ped) sell by that way.

so this system ( % on item price) is counter productive for me :
1) people will use it only for low end item
2) MA wont get mutch money , and probably less than before
3) they spend time to develop something that wont be used.
....

May I speculate on steps 4,5, and 6?

4) MA wants to make ppl use the system they have developed to increase tax.
5) MA somehow limits or eliminates the in-auction markup that so many items now enjoy by capping the % of full TT-value at which an item can begin at auction (perhaps 1000% of TT value) or makes all auctions begin at TT value.
6) ppl use shops to get around the cap or elimination.

Make sense? Likely?

I think we have seen time and again that MA implements systems step-wise, always with an eye on getting ppl interested in the system and then increasing their own profit. I'm not saying that's good or bad, rather I'm simply recognizing a pattern.

 

[burnsey]

Well to be honest when I was looking into buying an shop / stall in Hadesim there was no signs that I was not buying the land, in fact the visualization thing showed the land that I assumed I would owned?

What’s next the land in my Hangar & around it is not mine? The land for my house is not mine?

In real life with things like this it has to be clearly stated that you are not owning the land.

The way I see it never once did MA say that you where only buying the stall for Hadisem, it was always implied you where buying the land. Now for MA to say that is not the case?!?!

Here's the picture of the estate terminal.

[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

The purple is the area of land that I thought I had purchased. Before this update I believed I "owned" this land and was able to use a shopkeeper on it.

But now the land is "owned" and taxed by MA. I'd at least like some further explanation and clarification from MA.

 

[Nicole]

Here's the picture of the estate terminal.

[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

The purple is the area of land that I thought I had purchased. Before this update I believed I "owned" this land and was able to use a shopkeeper on it.

But now the land is "owned" and taxed by MA. I'd at least like some further explanation and clarification from MA.

hmm so does that mean if you had an shop it would be 6 pts? and you could put 20 items in you shop? and 4 out side of it?

Well one good thing, though I was going to see an montly fee too

 

[Solaris]

Well - I was surely very disappointed indeed, when I arrived to a completely empty market-square in Hadesheim just to discover that these new market-booths are to be bought by rich players only.

From what MA wrote in the VU-statement, I was completely certain that these new shops were for us all to use and benefit, just as the auction.

Imagine a market with shops, where all ppl could set down their items for sale with a fixed % fee to MA. What a relief this would be to Atlantis. What a relief this would be for the shopping hunger of girls and girlish boys. What a relief this would be for the huge amounts of useless loot, bones, claws, colors and wood, we all curse at when we open our inventory.

Now finally MA could get their share of all the street-trading done before. A small tax, but who cares when only cheap loot are sold.

Then we would all be running around in Hades-shops to spot that item we need at the cheapest price. All low-end items. A good old fashioned marketplace with lots of ppl putting stuff up for display, lots of girls pointing and boys running when sales where announced. I can almost see the neonsigns for crisp nutrio meals and smell the brew of coffee and hotdogs and fresh papplon and dung in the streets of Hades: Once a sad foggy ghosttown!!

Please MA - this is a request!!

 

[fresco]

Well - I was surely very disappointed indeed, when I arrived to a completely empty market-square in Hadesheim just to discover that these new market-booths are to be bought by rich players only.

From what MA wrote in the VU-statement, I was completely certain that these new shops were for us all to use and benefit, just as the auction.

Imagine a market with shops, where all ppl could set down their items for sale with a fixed % fee to MA. What a relief this would be to Atlantis. What a relief this would be for the shopping hunger of girls and girlish boys. What a relief this would be for the huge amounts of useless loot, bones, claws, colors and wood, we all curse at when we open our inventory.

Now finally MA could get their share of all the street-trading done before. A small tax, but who cares when only cheap loot are sold.

Then we would all be running around in Hades-shops to spot that item we need at the cheapest price. All low-end items. A good old fashioned marketplace with lots of ppl putting stuff up for display, lots of girls pointing and boys running when sales where announced. I can almost see the neonsigns for crips nutrio meals and smell the brew of coffee and hotdogs and fresh papplon and dung in the streets of Hades: Once a sad foggy ghosttown!!

Please MA - this a request!!

exactly - sort of a flea market - could spot something rare as well, like "rembrandt" from grandma's attick... quite entertaining would be

good for MA as well - instead of shouting in PA for hours - put it in and go waste peds hunting...

 

[AkiranBlade]

The Markets in Hadesheim were sold up a long time ago. The ones in CND I haven't seen hit the auction yet.

2% is too much in a virtual world where we are paying too much already.

I really like the idea of Etopia's comment about the apartment renting scheme. I think if all property's in Entropia had to pay rent/taxes in accordance to the size or type of property, this would stabilise income coming into MA and no need to charge 2% on items. If we are talking about a land area shop/stall then the rent should go to the land owner (who also pays rent to MA ultimately)

OK, so the numbers would have to be crunched on that, but surely that is better for people in entropia?

Personally though I think the market in Hadesheim is pointless, as very few people go there that are established players. More markets should be set up in each town (Argus, PA, Ithica, Twin to name a few) As having a shopkeeper at the moment means that you can get the few people that happen to wander past your property when they are exploring!

In fact, there is a property on a peninsula of land @ corinth beach, that I never even new was there till I wandered past it and thought, "I wonder if there's a property up there?"

More Markets in towns please!

 

[Status]

May I speculate on steps 4,5, and 6?

4) MA wants to make ppl use the system they have developed to increase tax.
5) MA somehow limits or eliminates the in-auction markup that so many items now enjoy by capping the % of full TT-value at which an item can begin at auction (perhaps 1000% of TT value) or makes all auctions begin at TT value.
6) ppl use shops to get around the cap or elimination.

Make sense? Likely?

I think we have seen time and again that MA implements systems step-wise, always with an eye on getting ppl interested in the system and then increasing their own profit. I'm not saying that's good or bad, rather I'm simply recognizing a pattern.

good point

plus remember if thing dont change soon, inflation is gunna go thru the roof, this seems a future plan, with the HUGE mall at CND, to help put a cap on it.

 

[Jake Rogue]

Well to be honest when I was looking into buying an shop / stall in Hadesim there was no signs that I was not buying the land, in fact the visualization thing showed the land that I assumed I would owned?

One thing I have learnt in life is that you can never safely assume anything...

If you own a market stall in real life this doesn't necessarily mean that you also own the land beneath it, so why assume that this is the case in PE??

In real life with things like this it has to be clearly stated that you are not owning the land.

If something isn't explicitly stated it doesn't mean that you can automatically assume the converse.

Nowhere does it state that I don't own the land underneath my house all the way to the center of the Earth, however, I cannot assume that I do just because nobody has said otherwise!!

As I said in my previous posting, MindArk have explicitly stated:

All market places (like those in Hadesheim) have been upgraded to 'shop' status.

What you are suggesting is that market places should have a categorization other than "shop" or that a market place should be considered a land area.

Never assume anything!

Although, I agree that Mindark could have made it clearer to some players that when they were buying a market place they were not automatically claiming ownership to the land beneath it (which many have assumed here).

 

[AkiranBlade]

Although, I agree that Mindark could have made it clearer to some players that when they were buying a market place they were not automatically claiming ownership to the land beneath it (which many have assumed here).

Absolutely, there is no way enough information on title deeds to explain what it is at the location marked on the map!

It needs to be much much more explicit. For houses; you should be able to actually view the house from the auction, shops; see the stall area clearly marked, apartments; the same.

 

[MG Mighty]

Nowhere does it state that I don't own the land underneath my house all the way to the center of the Earth, however, I cannot assume that I do just because nobody has said otherwise!!

As a matter of fact in most countries you don't own the land to the center of the earth.

A company might one day be able to mine or build a subway under your house if the proper autorities give them permission to do it; and in many cases you won't be able to do much against it; but if by any chance they limit the ability to fully use what you had before, I'm almost sure that you may request that they give you back what you lost.

 

[Status]

Isnt this the reason IRL if you buy a house, land, shop, etc, you usually have a couple page contract to sign that says everything so you cant assume. I can see it now, MA land contracts

 

[Etopia]

Absolutely, there is no way enough information on title deeds to explain what it is at the location marked on the map!

It needs to be much much more explicit. For houses; you should be able to actually view the house from the auction, shops; see the stall area clearly marked, apartments; the same.

i think deed ( like it was ask long time ago allready)
should have all info about the things we own with it .

exact place
size
number of item alowed
number of display item alowed
....

evrything MUST be cleary stated.

MA when will you understand you have to be clear on things !
we speak about real money , and item start to cost a lot ... people whant all stuff to be clear , and not that it change depending on the wind in alaska .


for the booth , i think the buyer own the area .
other whise MA should have have state it was a rent !

as for shop in ND or Deathifier place ... things must be clear again.
i am not against pay a charge , i i would prefer to pay a month fee.like rent shop for X ped per month to ND or i buy the place , but then i own it !
as for MA part , if they tax for "selling" item, then again i would prefer a month fee.

things are , shop got a lot less selling power than auction.
and specially because MA still fail to create a nice shoping area( dont count CND).
also , introducing shop , would be reduce the reseller problem , and probably help to make economie more healthy(less resseller = less parasite).
with that system , the less effective selling system is the more taxed ...
what will happen if i am shop owner :

1)i put my item at market in my shop, i lost 5% for the fee , and it will take long time to sell

2) i take my item , remove 5% to market price , put in auction and it get sold in 2 day.

what you think i will do as an experianced shop owner and seller in callypso ?

 

[Jake Rogue]

As a matter of fact in most countries you don't own the land to the center of the earth.

Well, that was my point exactly MG Mighty.......

In many countries you don't even own the land that your house is built upon.

Never assume anything in life without checking the full facts first.

If you bought a 3rd floor apartment you hopefully wouldn't assume that you also own the 2 apartments below you!

(or the 3 apartments below you if you are British!)

 

[Gryffon]

Jake, I kind of see Burnsey's point, though, when I look at the deed.

It says:

Owner: Bill Burnsey Reznor
Additional owned area: Yes
Estate Area: 50 m^2
Estate Height: 5 m
Estate Volume: 250 m^3

According to the wording in the deed, Burnsey is the "Owner" of a 250 cubic meter land area (estate) upon which his shop kiosk stands--which is why he's able to place a shop keeper next to the kiosk. If the deed showed that he only owned the kiosk, that would be one thing, but the deed shows him owning the land around it--50 square meters of it. So, based solely on the deed, I think his "assumption" is fair.

The thing is, let's say someone (hypothetically) pays 20000 peds for the shop in Hades. Then they pay another 5000 peds for a shop keeper to make the shop functional. Because, really, before this VU the kiosk was just a table and umbrella with no real function. What you bought was the land to put a shopkeeper on. But then, after that investment, the rules were changed.

One can kind of see MA's internal logic. If you were to "buy" a kiosk on TI or CND, you would buy it from Deathifier or Neverdie, and thus the sales commission (under the new VU) goes to them. Since people bought kiosks in Hades from MA... I guess it's logically consistent, but I still think it's bad form to say, "You know that money you invested in that shop? We've changed how the shop works."

This may have been done because CND was built from the ground up with the capacity for the new shop system and the other land areas were not--and MA doesn't want to alienate the previous land owners (by giving Neverdie a source of revenue that they will not be able to tap into). And they don't want to alienate Neverdie or the Amethera land owners by making Hadesheim shops cheaper to operate--making the shops in player-owned areas less appealing and raising the market value of shops outside of Amethera and CND. So they are applying the new system to an existing shop system--thus alienating the current shop owners who might not have invested if they had known that this was how it was going to turn out.

And so we go back to my original theory: that the only real worthwhile investment in this game is an actual Land Area: like those found on Amethera--or a space resort.

On the other hand, I see another solution. People who "own" kiosks are still able to place shop keepers on the land around the kiosk. They are not forced to use the kiosk for selling. If (and someone would have to tell me if this is true) the shop keepers are not subjected to this fee, then you could either (A) not use the kiosk and just use your shop keeper--as you have been doing--or (B) use the kiosk for low-end items that can still sell with the 2% markup (freeing up room for 10 items from your shop keeper), sell your mid-range items from your shop keeper, and sell your high-end items on the auction--as you would probably do anyway.

If the shop keepers are also subject to this markup, then the middle classes have gotten hosed again.

I do think Etopia's idea for rent is better, and more like "real life." If you rent space in a mall, the rent is based on demand for space in that location (charged by square foot/meter), not based on your gross revenues.

 

[Status]

I do think Etopia's idea for rent is better, and more like "real life." If you rent space in a mall, the rent is based on demand for space in that location (charged by square foot/meter), not based on your gross revenues.

i love ur post but this statement is not tru. I was considering opening a kiosk in the mall by my house. I have some connections for "glow products". Point being is, when I spoke with the mall administration to find out kiosk pricing, they had a set monthly fee PLUS a % of your sales. During the holiday season the % was higher then during the "off" season. So I will say that I have seen this scinario in real life.

 

[Mikah]

i love ur post but this statement is not tru. I was considering opening a kiosk in the mall by my house. I have some connections for "glow products". Point being is, when I spoke with the mall administration to find out kiosk pricing, they had a set monthly fee PLUS a % of your sales. During the holiday season the % was higher then during the "off" season. So I will say that I have seen this scinario in real life.

yes Status you are right.
I know because I researched that information as well...

 

[Gryffon]

i love ur post but this statement is not tru. I was considering opening a kiosk in the mall by my house. I have some connections for "glow products". Point being is, when I spoke with the mall administration to find out kiosk pricing, they had a set monthly fee PLUS a % of your sales. During the holiday season the % was higher then during the "off" season. So I will say that I have seen this scinario in real life.

Ouch. Then I stand corrected in one sense--and I can't contradict you because I have never looked into renting a kiosk in a mall.

But this also validates my statement that the middle classes are getting hosed.

 

[Status]

But this also validates my statement that the middle classes are getting hosed.

lol, im only 22, but from my understanding, isnt this how its bee for a long time? Atleast in the US.

And it may just be "SIMON" malls, I only checked with that one company. Other malls may not do the same

 

[Gryffon]

lol, im only 22, but from my understanding, isnt this how its bee for a long time? Atleast in the US.

I meant to add a winkie at the end, because I was confirming something that is well known.

Granted, it's only as I get older and move further up into the middle class that I realize just how bad it is. I guess PE is still okay, because it "only" takes about $30,000 to $100,000 to be in the "super wealthy" class.

And SOME DAY I may be able to justify putting that kind of money in to this game, but I'm just not there yet. Then again, I haven't even been playing for three months yet.

 

[Jake Rogue]

Since people bought kiosks in Hades from MA... I guess it's logically consistent, but I still think it's bad form to say, "You know that money you invested in that shop? We've changed how the shop works."

I agree Gryffon and mostly agree with your post on the whole. This is clearly an issue of ambiguity that MindArk has created and something on which they should have provided further clarification (although the cynic in me suspects that there is something in the EULA that allows them to do this at will).

MindArk have, however, explicity stated that market places "have been upgraded to 'shop' status" and that "When an item is sold, a fee is also paid to the landowner (not to be confused with the shop owner) upon whose land the shop is located."

I do think Etopia's idea for rent is better, and more like "real life." If you rent space in a mall, the rent is based on demand for space in that location (charged by square foot/meter), not based on your gross revenues.

Perhaps, although as far as I am aware in most countries "Sales Tax" is added to the price of goods due to government taxation laws. MindArk is in many ways equivalent to a government of Calypso.

Consider that if you are a land owner in real life you are still bound by the taxation laws of the government of the country in which your land is located and cannot simply declare yourself to be an independent state (although many have tried! )

lol, im only 22, but from my understanding, isnt this how its been for a long time? At least in the US.

Not only in the US Status!

Many people here in the UK would actually have a higher income if they quit work and started claiming government benefits!

We also definately need a new higher taxation band for the "super rich", the Queen might disagree though...

 

[Tussi]

BTW: The shops on CND have a monthly maintenance fee.

 

[burnsey]

I got my answer from support, all money goes to MA:
Hi,
That you have the deed for the shop indicates that you are the shop owner and that you are free to use the shop for your selling purposes, but you are not the land owner. The 2 % surcharge is paid to MindArk, the owner of the land.
The market places can only hold 10 items, but if you place a shopkeeper there, you will add extra space.
/Regards
Support

Guess I won't be selling anything in the shop that costs over 44 pecs in tax. That will just go in the Shopkeeper.

 

[Aziphirael]

In another thread it also appears the tax on shops at TI don't go to Deathifier either as he has no control over the apartment buildings so its going to MA as well.

I'm still using my shopkeeper at the moment as well at Hades C as its just easier to set up and theres more space available.

 

[Nicole]

After getting some free time I went down to see Hadisen as well as other shops on TI.

In general all the shops seems very nice, but now back to topic.


As for the shops in Hadisen, the new features sales/display tables, added to it that is, I see nothing wrong with them.

They are added new and takes nothing away from the old shops in the first place.

If you want to use the new display tables to sell things then there is an fee to use them; at least that is my understanding of them ??!??!

When this tread first came out though there might be an new fee for using the shops themselfs.
But I don’t think that is the case.

I think the new display terminalis only has an 2% fee? That is paid by the customer and not the seller? For low end items I think its an win / win situation for the shop owner.

 

[burnsey]

yeah but it's not worth selling anything over 22 peds total on the display. Either put it in Shopkeeper or put in auction and that's on 2% tax...

at least if they only taxed the markup it'd give some leeway so u could sell items on display for up to tt+22

 

[AkiranBlade]

yeah but it's not worth selling anything over 22 peds total on the display. Either put it in Shopkeeper or put in auction and that's on 2% tax...

at least if they only taxed the markup it'd give some leeway so u could sell items on display for up to tt+22

Do shopkeepers decay? If so, what's the cost per sale (regardless of transaction amount)?

 

[Nicole]

Do shopkeepers decay? If so, what's the cost per sale (regardless of transaction amount)?

I have an shop keeper.. lol did not pay attention to it really so decay might be off.


puting an item in and taking an item out cost like 1 pecs

an item that is sold cost like 40 pecs


Just got an new shop keeper for my hangar and dont fix it much.. have not fixed it yet since buying it..

The last two shop keepers I had before I sold before really needing to fix them