Mentor Charging for Services - Is this Allowed - Doesn't seem Moral

[moondog]

I was doing a bit of trading yesterday and noticed an avatar offering mentoring services for a fee. the hook of the offer was the chance to win 300 ped a month over the next to years from a competition he was running in parallel with the mentor ship.

Under TOU is this actually allowed. after thinking about it I am not sure. The avatar id providing a service for which he is charging, that I can see a being allowed although I have never heard of it and seems a bit tight on new players who have very little cash anyway.

My real concern was the link to the parallel competition. Is that acceptable as it seems that the avatar is probably trying to generate income off the back of charging players to be his disciple. As i am unsure of the rules here I wont name the avatar but would suggest to any new players reading this post that any decent mentor wont charge you for services and if they try to I would suggest finding a different mentor, there are plenty of excellent mentors in game (check the mentor register).

Not sure if this can be classed as a scam, but as always everyone's input is appreciated.

 

[Lardinho]

Howdy mate, I've seen something like this before and it is, as far as I know, illegal.

Mentoring should be done with 0 financial incentives between the mentor and the disciple. I make sure all my disciples understand this before I take them on.

The only thing you could do is make a support case to MA. I know that seems harsh but there are indeed shit mentors out there and it makes legit mentors jobs more difficult in being unable to offer such assistance in reponse to this. I've been unfortunate enough to have a disciple kick me and leave the Soc after a mentor offered him 'more in the way of financial help'. Luckily though, most of the disciples I have that stay in the game end up graduating.

 

[Svarog]

Haven't heard of it, but if some mentors pay to their disciples (not in a form of help, but an actual payment for being a disciple) then why some can't charge for it? Everything is fine as long as both parties agree.

 

[skunkjunk]

Haven't heard of it, but if some mentors pay to their disciples (not in a form of help, but an actual payment for being a disciple) then why some can't charge for it? Everything is fine as long as both parties agree.

agreed, No reason why it should be illegal. Wouldend recommend a diciple to pay a mentor , but seeing that it is accually endorsed to provide a service to earn peds by MA it seem to fit in the universe that way.

It wil be the question of how competend is the mentor in what he offering, that be the main factor if this service is a valid option.

A good mentor at a desent rate could surely benefit a new player. I do doubt many competend mentors are available for the simple reason, its to much a hassle and if you capable enouf you be out hunting/mining whatever instead of hanging around to farm diciple.

Also makes me think of this point i often tought.
There are really a lot of so called ëxperts "hanging" around noob area 's giving real shitty advice (like go un amped opalo as just a excample). They giving really shitty advice (half dident even hit lvl 30 even...).
And that most likely hurting the noob community more then a mentor charging for service ,seeing if he payed and fucks up no doubt he be flamed at the forum.

in short:

neh not illegal

 

[Vedder]

Certainly not illegal.

Maybe not very nice to charge the newbies, but not against any rules at all.

And if he actually is able to provide better service/mentorship or whatever else could justify the fee, then it might even make sense for the newbies too. But even if not, there's no rules against it.

 

[AxeMurderer]

waiting for ...

Someone charging for painting - Is this Allowed - Doesn't seem Moral
Someone charging for texturing - Is this Allowed - Doesn't seem Moral
Someone charging for healing - Is this Allowed - Doesn't seem Moral

are we playing pokemon or sandbox RCE with massive investments and massive risks for mature people

Everyone can charge and pay for anything if u ask me

 

[xaph]

Crikey is it that desperate that charges apply to mentoring?
One thinks this is a 2nd , 3rd to ~ avatar work around with ped transfer for minor gains, skill gains and such a long term farming approach.
Invention at it's worst..... BLAH

 

[Robin]

This is why I just don't bother advertizing being a mentor any longer...I Think for the player to suceed and stay with it after he graduates, he should do it on his own without so many freebies...Later on the mentor won't be able to afford to support everyone..

 

[OZtwo]

Well, it's not illegal but it sure sounds like a scam to me.

 

[Xavier Target]

Sounds good to me.... I'm in... 4,000 ped for my mentoring... I will verbally abuse you until you learn how to make some dang pedz...

 

[Mac]

I'd make a terribad mentor, please feel free to donate your PEDs to me to NOT be a mentor

But seriously, I've paid consultants for business services IRL. Why should being a "Mentor" be any different? I see it as a service performed. Why shouldn't mentors be able to charge for the service? That way the Mentor knows what he's going to get before he begins the process instead of waiting around for some piece of crap TT item to drop in your loot. That's fine if your benevolent and the disciple can't afford to pay, but think of the case where the person can pay and would pay to get a good leg up on the game from a pro, don't you think someone would be willing and able to pay? Would you consider paying a consulting fee or % of profits for some agreed upon time to top players or anyone else who can prove profitability to help you learn how to profit at their level consistently over time?

 

[xian]

it ain't illegal, to some extent SIG and the windswept who offered mining classes for 500 PED were exactly doing the same.
Just be sure you will learn something you couldn't have for free..

 

[ChairmanEdgewise]

My mentor is actually paying me by letting me borrow his A101, A103, a Sleipnir, ARS, pixie armor, etc... Gave me ammo, a TP chip, and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting...

Sounds my mentor back in the days, it surely got me hooked to the game



Enjoy it! Best times!

 

[gyrmn]

Well, it's not illegal but it sure sounds like a scam to me.

Yup! Get free peds kick the disciple....& noob has no recourse.

 

[xaph]

I'd make a terribad mentor, please feel free to donate your PEDs to me to NOT be a mentor

But seriously, I've paid consultants for business services IRL. Why should being a "Mentor" be any different? I see it as a service performed. Why shouldn't mentors be able to charge for the service? That way the Mentor knows what he's going to get before he begins the process instead of waiting around for some piece of crap TT item to drop in your loot. That's fine if your benevolent and the disciple can't afford to pay, but think of the case where the person can pay and would pay to get a good leg up on the game from a pro, don't you think someone would be willing and able to pay? Would you consider paying a consulting fee or % of profits for some agreed upon time to top players or anyone else who can prove profitability to help you learn how to profit at their level consistently over time?

Welcome True Believer jump on my method and I'll make you a billion ped ! Piss on my leg' pay some and reap the benefits, then we'll part ways friend

 

[Luckycharm]

The good part is the disciple instantly gets used to loose some lol
If after that EU gets less expensive for him that's only encouraging to stay in! xD


This would be a typical Calypto alt stunt ;p Letting an alt disciple win of course.

 

[xaph]

The good part is the disciple instantly gets used to loose some lol
If after that EU gets less expensive for him that's only encouraging to stay in! xD


This would be a typical Calypto alt stunt ;p Letting an alt disciple win of course.

As mentor, in the deep dark past I've had no alter.

A lot are honest players, many of them don't respond to the darks side!

 

[Magyar_Republic]

I was doing a bit of trading yesterday and noticed an avatar offering mentoring services for a fee. the hook of the offer was the chance to win 300 ped a month over the next to years from a competition he was running in parallel with the mentor ship.

Under TOU is this actually allowed. after thinking about it I am not sure. The avatar id providing a service for which he is charging, that I can see a being allowed although I have never heard of it and seems a bit tight on new players who have very little cash anyway.

My real concern was the link to the parallel competition. Is that acceptable as it seems that the avatar is probably trying to generate income off the back of charging players to be his disciple. As i am unsure of the rules here I wont name the avatar but would suggest to any new players reading this post that any decent mentor wont charge you for services and if they try to I would suggest finding a different mentor, there are plenty of excellent mentors in game (check the mentor register).

Not sure if this can be classed as a scam, but as always everyone's input is appreciated.

This guy is referring to me.

I'm not charging for my mentoring at all. I never have and I never will.

He spammed around and around about this, not willing to listen in the slightest to what I had to say. He made up his mind without even bothering to read the competition, which is exactly that, a competition meant to HELP new players by increasing the reward beyond a simple suit of armor. I tried to explain this to him, but he was more interested in pointing his finger than anything else. It appears he still is.

What I said ingame was the following:

Win up to 300 PED per month as my disciple from 7/1/13 to 7/1/15. PM me for more details.

This prompted him to accuse me of charging players, and scamming them.

Read for yourself.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...in-PED-as-Magyar-s-disciple!-Will-you-be-next

-rep is well deserved

He also accused me of trying to farm mentor gifts. Yeah. Because a pair of gloves that are unrepaired worth 3-5 PED totally worth me spending 300 PED or more a month on. Spending at minimum $480 on items worth less than a dollar, and increasing my workload by providing people multiple ways to contact me so I am busy answering questions for players while not even in the game. All because I want to scam a few PED and get more Hunter ME pieces (I already have a full suit). Makes total sense.

Nope. Just trying to help motivate people by sweetening the pot. For the record, MA is completely aware of this project. I asked them to put it on the client loader. They may, or may not. It really doesnt matter. They support the idea as much as is responsible for them to do.

Important lesson: Ask. Dont assume.

Those on the forum here probably know or have heard I have a boatload of CLD and make regular withdrawals. I'm just giving a little of it back to the community.

Edit: This player also harassed me, asking me how many people I had paid 300 PED to. I tried to explain to him that a contest that starts in 2 weeks cant have given out any prizes yet. His response was that he believed that was proof that I was scamming.

Moondog, I see you are in Gloryhound Irregulars. Why dont you have a chat with dilly about me? He may be able to set you straight.

 

[Hypnotyk]

My mentor is actually paying me by letting me borrow his A101, A103, a Sleipnir, ARS, pixie armor, etc... Gave me ammo, a TP chip, and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting...

Most importantly, I gave you good advice and leadership duh!! And free trips to arkadia too

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Oh snap! How did I forget about that!

Hyp is tha man!

Nice.

Yeah I pay for my disciples to have passage booked on motherships if they can justify the need to me. Ive been doing this since the ships came out, and before then would reimburse disciples (and or learning society mates) to TP to places like Rocktropia or Next Island using the same criteria. For me its all about being able to explain why x location or x activity is better than what you are currently doing. If a disciple can show me that they are learning and engaged in the process I have no problem helping them along.

I'd rather have the passage booked and them get to know the crew of various ships than have them depend on their relationship with me, in this instance, because I feel it helps them grow to a level of self sufficiency faster and exposes them to more of what the game has to offer.

I've been helping folks along like this, like alot of other folks here, since before mentoring was back in the game. Ive held contests for sweating, to this day I pay 5 PED per 1k sweat and 10 PED per 1k on random days, though I buy at my discretion based off my need. Basically any buyer I buy from gets this price, regardless of what they advertise they are charging. I just drop the entire amount in their trade window and make their day.

This guys accusations are absurd.

As for why my contest exists, its because it disheartens me to see disciples get to 60 or 80% and quit, or worse, get to 20% and then stagnate, maybe making a % or 2 every month. Its depressing for me and it has to be depressing for them. I feel they are missing motivation in some key area. Many times theyre not depositors, and get disheartened by the difficulty of the game over time. I feel my contest appeals to the competitive spirit in almost every gamer and may be exactly what they need to set their minds toward finishing a task.

 

[Mac]

Welcome True Believer jump on my method and I'll make you a billion ped ! Piss on my leg' pay some and reap the benefits, then we'll part ways friend

You're funny

I was thinking about this a little bit more. What about thinking of it like multi-level marketing. I know that will turn a lot of people off right there by using that name, but.. Imagine a situation where you can personally bring people into the game ( like some people have done or do already), and make them your disciple ( like a lot of people do already), now that they are your disciple you get a percentage of everything they loot for however long they are your disciple, obviously it will be in your best interest to help them be successful while they are your disciple because the more successful they are, the more percentage you make.

I think something like this is already in the game for planet partners. They bring people into the game, they get a percentage of everything done on their planet. How about as a mentor, you get a percentage of everything your disciple does, no matter what planet they are on, that will be your motivation to help them stay and be successful.

I know there is the potential for some people to just sign up disciples and not do anything to help to try and make a buck for nothing, but the disciple can kick them if they find out that's the case.

In the case of the mentor/disciple, nothing says the mentor has to keep the ped he makes off them, he could give it back to the disciple to help them out, as many already do in the form of items or ped.

The concept could be modified a bit for people to add anyone at any time as an "employee" or "apprentice" or "follower" where it would establish a contract percentage, whereby the "employer/Journeyman/leader would get a percentage of everything the employee/apprentice/follower loots while they are under contract. The contract could be broken at any time either party decides its not in their interest to participate any longer.

You might ask, as others have already alluded to, what would be the motivation for someone to give up a percentage of their loot when they can just learn the game for free by themselves? Because time is money. Ask how does it take the average person to learn the game to be successful? Would it be better to pay a percentage of your loot to get some good mentorship/apprenticeship/consulting or whatever you want to call it from someone who is already successful and knows the system? Think about it, would you be willing to give up a percentage of loot for some instruction from someone like Akoz, Star, or Stryker or anyone else who claims to be profitable? If they can provide some valuable insight into the game, or experience, strategy or tactics, then they could be compensated, otherwise you can terminate the contract.

You might say, well, those people that are successful would never give up their secrets, well, maybe they wouldn't, but maybe the fast track of expert advice is worth it for some to pay in percentage of loot, and maybe a percentage of loot is enough for someone experienced to provide some expert advice/counseling/direction to someone else in the game that is not doing so well, in the end it is to everyone's interest to be successful enough to stay in the game, that information they pay for in percentage might be enough to help them do that where otherwise they might have failed. A piece of the pie is better than no pie at all.

You might say, well, success is random in this game, so why pay for something that is only a random (loot) event. Well, I don't think all the things that make you successful in this game are random. I think they are well thought out calculated decisions over time. Look around, we all have the same opportunity, but some people do better than others. Obviously some have more money to invest than others, but still its the same concept.

Why would someone help other people who could eventually become their competition? Because first of all they would get a percentage of their loot to train them as a disciple, or keep them as an employee/apprentice/follower over time. And again, its to everyone's interest to have people learn how to be a success at this game and keep them playing imo.

I'm sure there are problems with these ideas, feel free to build them up or tear them down, they are just ideas

 

[Lardinho]

This guy is referring to me.

I'm not charging for my mentoring at all. I never have and I never will.

He spammed around and around about this, not willing to listen in the slightest to what I had to say. He made up his mind without even bothering to read the competition, which is exactly that, a competition meant to HELP new players by increasing the reward beyond a simple suit of armor. I tried to explain this to him, but he was more interested in pointing his finger than anything else. It appears he still is.

What I said ingame was the following:

Win up to 300 PED per month as my disciple from 7/1/13 to 7/1/15. PM me for more details.

This prompted him to accuse me of charging players, and scamming them.

Read for yourself.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...in-PED-as-Magyar-s-disciple!-Will-you-be-next

-rep is well deserved

He also accused me of trying to farm mentor gifts. Yeah. Because a pair of gloves that are unrepaired worth 3-5 PED totally worth me spending 300 PED or more a month on. Spending at minimum $480 on items worth less than a dollar, and increasing my workload by providing people multiple ways to contact me so I am busy answering questions for players while not even in the game. All because I want to scam a few PED and get more Hunter ME pieces (I already have a full suit). Makes total sense.

Nope. Just trying to help motivate people by sweetening the pot. For the record, MA is completely aware of this project. I asked them to put it on the client loader. They may, or may not. It really doesnt matter. They support the idea as much as is responsible for them to do.

Important lesson: Ask. Dont assume.

Those on the forum here probably know or have heard I have a boatload of CLD and make regular withdrawals. I'm just giving a little of it back to the community.

Edit: This player also harassed me, asking me how many people I had paid 300 PED to. I tried to explain to him that a contest that starts in 2 weeks cant have given out any prizes yet. His response was that he believed that was proof that I was scamming.

Moondog, I see you are in Gloryhound Irregulars. Why dont you have a chat with dilly about me? He may be able to set you straight.

Jeebus Maygar, that screenie of your disciple progress is nuts XD mine range from 0.5% to 20% for the most part.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Jeebus Maygar, that screenie of your disciple progress is nuts XD mine range from 0.5% to 20% for the most part.

Really? This is pre-competition. No prizes given just advice. I thought it was a little low, myself. Having only 6 graduates in almost 2 years seemed a bit on the low side. Have been thinking for a while on how to help motivate people.

 

[Svarog]

Really? This is pre-competition. No prizes given just advice. I thought it was a little low, myself. Having only 6 graduates in almost 2 years seemed a bit on the low side. Have been thinking for a while on how to help motivate people.

At least there's some progress - my list is filled up with people who never log back after the first couple of days, yet I can't bring myself to kick them and make them feel sad if they return one day . Even have one from pre-vu10

 

[Mac]

At least there's some progress - my list is filled up with people who never log back after the first couple of days, yet I can't bring myself to kick them and make them feel sad if they return one day . Even have one from pre-vu10

You never know, it took me 4 years to fall off the wagon and play again after I "quit" the first time. I just completed my second discipleship a couple of weeks ago

 

[Lardinho]

Really? This is pre-competition. No prizes given just advice. I thought it was a little low, myself. Having only 6 graduates in almost 2 years seemed a bit on the low side. Have been thinking for a while on how to help motivate people.

No, I mean its the fact that they are all at a good percentage hehe. Roughly half of mine see absolutely no way to play for free, but many come from recent advertising and see that the game is basically dog turd unless you pay or spend years sweating. With regards to actual graduations, I've had 5 in 5 months, but those are usually well funded players and who still play now.

At least there's some progress - my list is filled up with people who never log back after the first couple of days, yet I can't bring myself to kick them and make them feel sad if they return one day . Even have one from pre-vu10

Alice has had one for over 8 years, its funny, I always say "goddamnit, kick them and take on new disci!" but always the same answer "but what if they log back in". If I have a disci who is at under 5% and hasn't logged in the game for 6 months, I don't mind replacing them with a new player, seeing as it's likely the other player won't come back and possibility of new player staying, even if they slow as hell, if they keep coming back its fine ^^;

You never know, it took me 4 years to fall off the wagon and play again after I "quit" the first time. I just completed my second discipleship a couple of weeks ago

Hehe when I returned after 3 year hiatus in december, none of my old disciples were playing anymore or had progressed, so I kicked em and became Alice's disciple for a 2nd time. Was great hehe. ^-^

 

[TiveXO]

Sounds good to me.... I'm in... 4,000 ped for my mentoring... I will verbally abuse you until you learn how to make some dang pedz...

the idea is seriously not to bad

if i think on it how frustarating menotring can be and most dicsis are not worth an im investing a lot of time and here and there aswell few ped's (free ride to other planets as example).

So in my eyes its not unmorale. but i think the most of us wouldnt get a disciple if we wuld charge them.
but somehow it would be fair. i mean pirates giving space pvp training for 1k ped.
IRL teachers cost money, all kind of trainees cost mostly money.......(if its not payed by taxed-money from governments).

and if i look on the reward on mentoring...... :/
its really not worth. i think the most mentors are just doing it because they like it to help newbies and maybe.......he is in end finally the one who got the rare mentors item.....

so im gonna buy now a whip !!

 

[MG Mighty]

Charging for a service is OK

(even if the service is information that the newcommer could get in less than 5 minutes of search)




Providing false hopes of future gains

is fraud


and is against the rules.






So he can charge all he likes, but if promisses things that he doesn't intend to keep there will be problems.

 

[Erastothenes]

Crikey is it that desperate that charges apply to mentoring?
One thinks this is a 2nd , 3rd to ~ avatar work around with ped transfer for minor gains, skill gains and such a long term farming approach.
Invention at it's worst..... BLAH

Copy Xaph, bro, as ever a voice of sanity in EU