Merging melee professions / skills

[remontoire]

And, I kinda oppose the merge between one-handed and two-handed clubs, as it makes sense they work in a different way (You don't handle a blackjack or a baton the same way you handle a sledgehammer, for example, and they're both concussive weapons). But if there's no hope for introducing enough weapons to easily differentiate the two club professions, then by all means go ahead (Make them all Heavy Melee Weapons though, or else that skill will only do well for Longblades ). Long/shortblade is a different thing though, and there are already many weapons of each type circulating, and balance issues would quickly arise.

If they were to switch one handed clubs from light melee to heavy melee, everybody who has club levels, but not a lot of swordsman levels would lose some of these. Heavy melee is already effectively only for longblades, so that is not really much of a change.

They should just take the BP for Adapted Force Mace Basher(L), clone it, and make it drop a two handed (L) club that does 138 max damage 27 times a minute. And Voila! two handed club problem 75% solved in less time than half a design meeting.

 

[Snuggins]

I suggested that way because all but one of the existing clubs are 1-handed (assuming Entropedia is correct).

Ah ok, I am not really familiar with the clubs items or profession.

In light of what remontoire is saying, I am kind of in favor of the suggestion (was it Noodles?) that light and heavy melee skills just combine to make one "melee" skill (summing tt value of the two). It would wipe out the distinction between clubs and bring LB and SB a little closer together without making them just one profession.

 

[SpikeBlack]

Very well it seems as if most people think that merging the clubs would be a good idea and that the longblades / shortblades should be left alone. Ill suggest this at the next design meeting.

Thanks everyone!

have you asked what the other PP's think? Surely it should have gone to them first as it's a platform change not a planetary one?

but regarding the question, I can't answer for clubs as I don't use them but leave the lb & sb skills and items alone please.

The skills for mining weren't merged when we got a single finder after all.

 

[Joker]

have you asked what the other PP's think? Surely it should have gone to them first as it's a platform change not a planetary one?

but regarding the question, I can't answer for clubs as I don't use them but leave the lb & sb skills and items alone please.

The skills for mining weren't merged when we got a single finder after all.

I haven't discussed this with anyone at all yet. Before I spend time on something I'd like to know if the players actually want it.

. .

 

[Horadrim]

Hi Kim,

I am a mele user and found a post that summarizes my toughs on that matter perfectly:

No I would leave all of them seperate.

So there are different SIB tracks for all of them ppl can 'work' on.

Putting them toghether you are eliminating some SIB paths, and nerv the diversity.

Make more weapons with a complete SIB tracks (from lvl 0 - 120 or so) in all seperate categories instead!

Let us have choices, let us create unique avatars If I want to have a simple "game" I go and play something else. EU keeps me (and i think many of other people) interested because there is a big variety and big variety means a bigger chance to find something interesting that suits me perfectly. Or allows to create unique tactics no one else has though about before. It encourages me to think what ( and how) should I do to survive ......

Horadrim

 

[Alice]

the problems of melee wont be solved with some merge

although i dont see much use in the merge, except of lowering the diversity yet again, the effect wont be of too much use probably

main problems of melee, based on the simple reason "melee doesnt use ammo"
1. availability
melee doesnt use ammo, thus just uses decay, thus the decay is fairly high, just a 300 ped sword breaks faster than a 300 ped gun, thus you need way more swords
there are none (not in the needed quantity)
if you compare similar dps weapons, lets say apis and tesla swords, you get the idea

2. prices
melee doesnt use ammo, thus just uses decay, thus the decay is fairly high
with the % markup on L weapons that means that if you pay 110% markup on a 1 pec decaying gun with 9 pec ammo is a totally different cost structure than paying 110% markup on a sword
example with figure
40 damage/1.1 (decay) +9=3,96
40 damage/11=3,63

long term wise thats serious

thus, what would be useful, is to make swords drop ALOT
and make them piss easy to craft
it is actually pretty funny to see that the p5a bp (i think) uses animal oil, thus the markup can be increased with the fairly cheap animal oil res (ok, nowadays that is higher too), allowing it some low %
while pretty much all (but one, kesmek slo) melee weapons need to use the metal and matter res (plus other funky rare resources often enough)

merging the skill wouldnt have much effect to counter those problems imo

and thus there are bigger fish to fry melee wise, than skill/profession merging

 

[narfi]

the problems of melee wont be solved with some merge

although i dont see much use in the merge, except of lowering the diversity yet again, the effect wont be of too much use probably

main problems of melee, based on the simple reason "melee doesnt use ammo"
1. availability
melee doesnt use ammo, thus just uses decay, thus the decay is fairly high, just a 300 ped sword breaks faster than a 300 ped gun, thus you need way more swords
there are none (not in the needed quantity)
if you compare similar dps weapons, lets say apis and tesla swords, you get the idea

2. prices
melee doesnt use ammo, thus just uses decay, thus the decay is fairly high
with the % markup on L weapons that means that if you pay 110% markup on a 1 pec decaying gun with 9 pec ammo is a totally different cost structure than paying 110% markup on a sword
example with figure
40 damage/1.1 (decay) +9=3,96
40 damage/11=3,63

long term wise thats serious

thus, what would be useful, is to make swords drop ALOT
and make them piss easy to craft
it is actually pretty funny to see that the p5a bp (i think) uses animal oil, thus the markup can be increased with the fairly cheap animal oil res (ok, nowadays that is higher too), allowing it some low %
while pretty much all (but one, kesmek slo) melee weapons need to use the metal and matter res (plus other funky rare resources often enough)

merging the skill wouldnt have much effect to counter those problems imo

and thus there are bigger fish to fry melee wise, than skill/profession merging

You have hit the nail of the problem right on the head!
This is an off the wall suggestion, but what about making melee use an "ammo" ?
For the most part they are all energy blades anyways, it wouldn't be too strange to say that they require 'energy cells' to power them.

Just a thought,

narfi

 

[Fansy]

Im quite young in this game and probably lack a lot of knowledge. I wonder if a merger of the melee skills will have an effect how easy/fast/cost effective you can unlock certain hidden skills and or attributes.

 

[remontoire]

Ah ok, I am not really familiar with the clubs items or profession.

In light of what remontoire is saying, I am kind of in favor of the suggestion (was it Noodles?) that light and heavy melee skills just combine to make one "melee" skill (summing tt value of the two). It would wipe out the distinction between clubs and bring LB and SB a little closer together without making them just one profession.

I'm sorry - what do you see as the benefit of making SB and LB closer?

Being able to skill for swords with Kesmek Slo(L) might I suppose look appealing at the beginning, but ... you might as well buy an UL Embra / UL Adjusted Embra, because the last blades you are likely to have supply with max at level 30. Unless you are prepared to pay a couple of K USD for UL SIB weapon TT and markup.

You have hit the nail of the problem right on the head!
This is an off the wall suggestion, but what about making melee use an "ammo" ?
For the most part they are all energy blades anyways, it wouldn't be too strange to say that they require 'energy cells' to power them.

Just a thought,

narfi

Much too complicated. Just make the existing energy amps attach to melee too.

Oh, and make every hof that has over 1K PED of oils give 1/2 of that in L SIB melee weapons instead.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

[...]
For example You can merge powerfists, one handed cubber, two handed cubber and whips into one "smash" profession/skill set , and shortblades and longblades into 2nd.
[...]

Very bad proposal IMO.
Why would you want to do something like that?

These are different skills for a reason. Imagine IRL being a good boxer, this would not mean that you can play baseball very well, and opposite. Same here, this weapons have different styles of using them, therefore separate skills.

 

[Shady]

hi

I vote no to this merge i like the diversity. Coming Soon only 1 gun called hunter mk1 (L)

a bit off topic
I want to mention after a patch we now hold the axe 2x0 longblade whit 1 hand and i dont like that it always been 2 hand animation in the past

edit:

 

[remontoire]

I suggested that way because all but one of the existing clubs are 1-handed (assuming Entropedia is correct).

Life is stranger than fiction - there is one weapon using the "Two handed clubber (hit)" profession, but zero that use the damage profession. According to item description.

 

[T79x]

this survey job is for VOTING Both
in game , for all


ahh yea they removed it

not everyone read here ,some dont read forums at all

 

[GoNi]

Please don´t touch Longblade/Shortblade!
For the clubs, well not that much clubs available actually, but instead merging the skills I would prefer to see more different clubs.

Merging skills can´t be good on the long run.

 

[Joker]

the sad but true fact is many can not use these high level blades...

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Niflhiem...&p=2821074&viewfull=1#post2821074

I CANT EVEN PAY SOMEONE TO USE MY BLADE....

that is right i am trying to tier this blade...

but it seems not enough players can use these damn things as it is...

people usually charge money to lend ...
i am paying and still can not find any takers cause NOT enough players have the skills...
you merge the skills i bet you almost double or triple the amount of players that can use these blades


for example (these are not real numbers)
This blade takes 1000 peds to use...
player 1 has 600 peds in LB and 500 peds in SB... can not use as is... but after merger
they will have enough to use the blade...

 

[GoNi]

the sad but true fact is many can not use these high level blades...

Well the problem with melee is that markup on the weapon (especially the SiB weapons) is comparable to paying markup on amunition.

Thats the main reason why most people (although they like melee) prefer using ranged weapons.

Merging the proffessions doesn´t solve that problem!

The other thing missing in melee is amps, no amps for melee!

Ranged hunters can attach amps to their guns to improve eco, melee hunters can´t do that.

Its not the problem that melee hunters don´t want to skill (fast) with SiB the problem is that it becomes f...ing expencive at higher levels, due to markups on the L SiB blades.

I use melee (both Short and Long) but the progress is slow as said can´t afford to pay 130% for the SiB blades at my level (close to 50). Therefor hunting with smaller weapons (availabel for 103-105%) and that slows down the progress in skills.

As said I am against that merge idea, altough it would definately push me to a much higher level in blades.

 

[Imperious]

I would like to see only people who actually use Melee the majority of the time answering in this thread for the most part.

Just in my opinion being a Melee user.

I think that if you merge 1H/2H clubs, you have to merge LB/SB. So it's either all or none, for me. Sure I can think of pros and cons for both situations, to merge or not to. If it does happen, I have faith that it will be done properly and fairly. EU is forever changing and it's required to adapt/evolve, those who are stuck in the past and do not adapt/evolve are doomed to fail. It will be another welcome change by me if it happens. And if it doesn't happen, I will be just as happy.

If it is decided not to merge LB/SB then leave clubs alone, just allow more useful 1 handed and 2 handed clubs drop, also as DocH suggest have a 2 handed club be more like a LB (speed and dmg wise) and a 1 handed club act more like a SB.

Also, I think the way the skills are balanced percentage wise in the Melee profession towards leveling up should be reworked, maybe introduce a LB weapon tech/ SB weapon tech when if it were to be rebalanced.

I think Longblade & shortblade should be allowed to give HP as Rifle/Handgun do.

It would be nice to see some sort of Melee amp, maybe have these amps be called energy booster amps and they add the specific type of damage that the LB/SB do as the Genesis/Omegaton blades are specialized types of dmg's for the most part. And I guess some sort of tiny sharpener attachment amp for the lower level blades for a small dmg bonus.

I 100% DO NOT wish to see any type of ammo on a LB/SB, it's a huge reason why I prefer blades.

 

[Joker]

I would like to see only people who actually use Melee the majority of the time answering in this thread for the most part.

Just in my opinion being a Melee user.

I think that if you merge 1H/2H clubs, you have to merge LB/SB. So it's either all or none, for me. Sure I can think of pros and cons for both situations, to merge or not to. If it does happen, I have faith that it will be done properly and fairly. EU is forever changing and it's required to adapt/evolve, those who are stuck in the past and do not adapt/evolve are doomed to fail. It will be another welcome change by me if it happens. And if it doesn't happen, I will be just as happy.

If it is decided not to merge LB/SB then leave clubs alone, just allow more useful 1 handed and 2 handed clubs drop, also as DocH suggest have a 2 handed club be more like a LB (speed and dmg wise) and a 1 handed club act more like a SB.

Also, I think the way the skills are balanced percentage wise in the Melee profession towards leveling up should be reworked, maybe introduce a LB weapon tech/ SB weapon tech when if it were to be rebalanced.

I think Longblade & shortblade should be allowed to give HP as Rifle/Handgun do.

It would be nice to see some sort of Melee amp, maybe have these amps be called energy booster amps and they add the specific type of damage that the LB/SB do as the Genesis/Omegaton blades are specialized types of dmg's for the most part. And I guess some sort of tiny sharpener attachment amp for the lower level blades for a small dmg bonus.

I 100% DO NOT wish to see any type of ammo on a LB/SB, it's a huge reason why I prefer blades.

glad to see what other melee hunters think... as u said most of the people in this thread it will not effect them since they are not melee hunters...

 

[mastermesh]

the sad but true fact is many can not use these high level blades...

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Niflhiem...&p=2821074&viewfull=1#post2821074

I CANT EVEN PAY SOMEONE TO USE MY BLADE....

yep. That's why a merger would be good for the current owners but not so great for others since it'd be a supply/demand thing. As someone that wants to eventually craft melee weapons for my shop in the next year and on down the road, the merger sounds like a great idea.

As someone that skills up on all the melee stuff, the merger also sounds fantastic. It's nice playing with the various melee weapons and if the skills from playing with all of them helped me be better at all of them, that'd be great, and I suspect others might feel the same way... One weapon type gets boring after a while.

 

[Crossy]

I am voting - don't change it, leave the current diversity.

I like the differences in shortblades (high frequency of smaller hits) vs longblades (low frequency of higher hits). This diversity is good and can be taken advanatge of. If you merge it I bet we will get medium frequency of medium hits (to arrive to same DPS) in which case I will stop skilling them as there will be hardly any point of differentiation from using other weapons (especially given the disadvantage of melee not having any range).

And yes, it will be probably bad for crafters too, but I am not crafter so don't know enough about it.

Yes I am a melee user (longswords mainly) but if the low frequency of high hits aspect of longswords gets removed I will probably stop using them.

 

[Snuggins]

I'm sorry - what do you see as the benefit of making SB and LB closer?

Being able to skill for swords with Kesmek Slo(L) might I suppose look appealing at the beginning, but ... you might as well buy an UL Embra / UL Adjusted Embra, because the last blades you are likely to have supply with max at level 30. Unless you are prepared to pay a couple of K USD for UL SIB weapon TT and markup.

You misunderstood me. Making SB and LB closer is a side-effect that would be tolerated, not an end in itself. The benefit of that overall idea was that it unifies the clubber profession and doesn't further unbalance heavy/light melee (giving one skill an impact on 4 professions and the majority of melee weapons while the other only impacts longblades).

I do own an UL Embra.

Oh, and make every hof that has over 1K PED of oils give 1/2 of that in L SIB melee weapons instead.

On this point and others relating to the supply of (L) melee and it's relative eco compared to ranged weapons that don't pay mu on ammo:

You can't just increase supply. If it's cheap enough to be used for eco's sake, ppl will just tt them. Since most hunters are ranged users that's who will mostly loot them. How do you convince people to bother selling an item when you've made sure that is only worth ~105%? That's right in the range that a lot of people say screw it and tt stuff.

Unless you somehow convince people that using a weapon that turns over ped in the form of item decay instead of ammo improves the quality of loot... I think you are going to have a hard time finding a way to solve that issue. /crazyloottheorist

 

[shoti]

hi



a bit off topic
I want to mention after a patch we now hold the axe 2x0 longblade whit 1 hand and i dont like that it always been 2 hand animation in the past

edit:

yep, vass is screwed same. It is used like knife :/



...someone is really needed to clear that mess in MA

 

[DoctorH]

NO!

I don't even want the clubs merging, I'd rather see more two handed clubs looted/crafted.

I echo that sentiment exactly. Don't monkey with the system too much.

 

[Joker]

I echo that sentiment exactly. Don't monkey with the system too much.

dont you use a imp2870 or mod merc?

 

[DoctorH]

I do use a MM. I also own and use a Gauss gun.... A BLP rifle..... A Plasma rifle. ....I also like to skill melee as a hobby. I also don't want the skills merged. I would prefer a broader base of 2H and 1H clubs.... maybe some more whips....high end fists........how about a spear? Basically I am arguing for variety.
Part of what I enjoy about EU is being able to use and skill a variety of weapon systems, building skills in each of them. For me and obviously some other players responding in this thread, merging skills is taking away a significant part of our enjoyment.
more variety not less.......give us a particle beamer cannon for a vehicle.......give us gauss vehicle weapons.....how about a bomb to drop from Quads.....

 

[Joker]

I do use a MM.

oh... ok...

 

[Trina Xenophage]

Bottom line for me on this topic is how bad will we get screwd by this change should it happen. As for me you guys at MA have taken so much away what my ava used to be able to do and took so much of her overall value away since cryengine was installed with the redicules unthought out changes (other then the benefits to yourselves) made to date.

Sooooo that being said if it follows that trend (which I am 1000% sure it will) you have my vote to change it IF and only if you personally will take a lego kick to the nads from every player it would effect. Otherwise my vote is simply stop changing things and fix what you broke, bring back what is missing without the standard raping we have endured since cryengine swap and then we can discuss moving forward with more outta the blue ideas.

 

[slither]

I remember someone in a previous thread suggested that L melee should use a system similar to what vehicles do instead of ammo. They would be able to be repaired multiple times but would gradualy lose integrety and become unusable.

 

[Joker]

I remember someone in a previous thread suggested that L melee should use a system similar to what vehicles do instead of ammo. They would be able to be repaired multiple times but would gradualy lose integrety and become unusable.

seems like a bad idea... and would devalue UL items

 

[Ardorj]

Come to think of it more, I say that Clubs should be left alone too. I think that the majority who say "merge the whole lot!" are those that use them less then 10% of their hunting time. Those that equally do hunt with Clubs are most against merging, so why merge? Example : I hardly ever use ranged weapons, yet I have skills in almost every Ranged Profession. Will I be personally be for merging ALL ranged skills? Yes, because it will help my ego self. Will it be good for the community and game? No way.
Most in favour are only for it because it will make their skilling easier. But Project Entropia has never been mend to be easy. It's supposed to be hard, challenging, you're actions today will have consequences years later. Think, Plan, Act. If I want easy progress I would play Pokemon and enter a Cheat Code.

Conclusion : Don't ever merge skills. Diverse, create other ways to increase the use of less skilled professions/ skills. Diverse, create new skills to specialize in.

With that in mind : Why is there no Axe Skill? A sword is used in a different way then an axe.