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Info: MindArk Blog | Proposal for Limited & Unlimited Items

Do you like this idea?

  • Total voters
    441
As far as I can see, most people here think that a UL weapon is an investment, but it’s not. An investment generates passive profit. A UL weapon is just a tool that lets you produce output. The game has simply reached a stage where the vast majority of hunters are generating products and want to sell them. The problem is – they don’t want to buy anything. Since UL items keep increasing in number every day, it’s natural that all loot ends up as NANOCUBES.


We also shouldn’t expect new players, because they stand no chance of competing with veterans. It’s hard to believe that in their first month a newcomer would rush to buy a veteran’s weapon for $500–$10,000. :)


That’s why I support making UL items harder to use – after all, UL items distort the economy: their owner becomes a supplier, but consumes nothing.
 
I think UL should keep going with PED or eventually shrapnel, while on L I would rather go for tt-merge of lower tt ones (eventually above standard max tt) into a repaired unit.
If main item has tier, the higher the tier the more T0's TT is required.
Anoter option could be merging UL blueprints of same type adding a little of QR rating onto a "main print" as alternative to selling.
 
maniake kovine eglute said:
As far as I can see, most people here think that a UL weapon is an investment, but it’s not. An investment generates passive profit. A UL weapon is just a tool that lets you produce output. The game has simply reached a stage where the vast majority of hunters are generating products and want to sell them. The problem is – they don’t want to buy anything. Since UL items keep increasing in number every day, it’s natural that all loot ends up as NANOCUBES.


We also shouldn’t expect new players, because they stand no chance of competing with veterans. It’s hard to believe that in their first month a newcomer would rush to buy a veteran’s weapon for $500–$10,000. :)


That’s why I support making UL items harder to use – after all, UL items distort the economy: their owner becomes a supplier, but consumes nothing.
Click to expand...
You proceed to describe an investment in your first paragraph after saying it is not.

A lot of people use UL weapons and still consume markup. The people depositing $50 a month ain't the ones keeping the economy alive. If I were to buy an UL LR60 I would still need limited armor, limited heal tools, limited mind force chips and burn through a ton of enhancers. I would still go click amps when I get bored, buy pills and light mind essence. I would need no less than four or five aths in order to afford to play at my current level (which I consider mid) with only UL equipment. Just because one or two parts of someone's setup is unlimited doesn't mean that they contribute less.

I still don't see where people think the magic markup is coming from.
 
That would make repair confusing and would force people to pay more for repair based on the value of cubes. I can get how thats beneficial to you but how does that help the playerbase. And would allow people to repair items instead of buying new ones. So those who bothered to raise their crafting skills to produce weapons and armor you want to make it worthless because everyone will be simply able to repair the gear they already have instead of buying new L items once they break ?. Want to make proper change that has a chance to fix the economy ? - Get rid of the absurd cost to shoot price of weapons that is what makes people unahppy. Having to spend 300-1000$ a month just to shoot a gun is absurd !
 
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Socrates|Mindark said:
The following post is from Jonas, our Head of Content at MindArk.

Greetings Entropians,

We've got a couple of changes we want to run by you. This is just a proposal for now, nothing is finalized yet. We understand that the changes are pretty foundational and that this area is very sensitive, which is why we want your input before doing anything with it. The goal is to make sure we’ve looked at it from all angles before deciding whether to move ahead or make any adjustments to the design.

Unlimited​

The economy is arguably the most critical and unique part of the game, and the problem with Unlimited items is that once you've got one, the balance is thrown off for good. You stop buying new L-items and resources, which means demand drops across the entire resource chain. At the same time, you keep feeding the market with resources and L-items, which creates oversupply and pushes prices down.

What we're proposing is a change to the Repair Terminal: instead of using pure PEDs, it would use Nanocubes as input. We propose using Nanocubes because they're flexible, almost anything can be converted into them, there's a good supply, and the most important aspect is that they’re still part of the broader economy.

Limited​

For Limited items, the proposal is to add a system that allows players to Combine items of the same type into a single item. While Limited items remain limited with this change, there are some design issues with how they currently work. Items with very low TT value left are generally not appealing and often end up being useless. Even if they are still usable, carrying around 10 items at 10% each is not a great experience compared to using one item at 100%.

The most important and game-changing aspect is related to the loot. Dropping items with less than 50% TT, or even 75%, causes problems, mainly due to the reason above. It results in inventories being filled with "broken" items that will be difficult to both sell and use. If this limitation was removed, it would be possible to increase the number of item drops without increasing the total TT value dropped of each specific item type. While this update won’t bring a general overhaul of all the loot lists, it will give us more options for the future.

Being able to combine items would also open up some new possibilities in the construction system. The quantity and quality settings could be used more strategically. One example is that you could be focusing on quantity to produce more items with higher Tier Increase Rates. It would also reduce the necessity of using Residue.

The image below shows a prototype of how the interface for this system could look.

index.php


The main item is placed in the smaller box on the left, and all items to be merged into it go into the larger box on the right.

To keep the unlocked Tiers of the main item, the corresponding Tier Components need to be added in the smaller boxes at the bottom. These can be left empty, but doing so will reset the Tiers during the combining process.

The resulting Tier Increase Rate is calculated as a weighted average, based on the TT values of the main item and all input items. The main item has a higher weight in this calculation.

Share Your Thoughts​

To wrap up, this is just a proposal, and we’re looking to gather feedback before making any decisions. These are important systems, and we want to make sure any changes we make are in the best interest of both the game and the community.

Take your time, think about it, let it sink in, and then let us know what you think. Your input will help guide the path forward!

// Jonas, Head of Content
Click to expand...
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...entropia-universe-thru-the-eyes-of-ai.306456/ theres your way to fix the economy and increase the player numbers
 

(L) Item Fuse / Merge

Often you loot Limited Items, be it BP or other items with low condition or just a few clicks. Some of those items have such a low value that it often does not make sence to sell them at auction or to sell them at all. Make Limited Items fuseable a) Broken items can´t be fused b) Only the TT of...
www.planetcalypsoforum.com www.planetcalypsoforum.com

Also there was talk from MA for L ring merging after tons of L rings from strongboxes. But I TT my L weapons recently after Setesh weapons and Starter pack weapons. It may be good for some L stuff that are still good, or new L items.
 
Socrates|Mindark said:

Unlimited​

The economy is arguably the most critical and unique part of the game, and the problem with Unlimited items is that once you've got one, the balance is thrown off for good. You stop buying new L-items and resources, which means demand drops across the entire resource chain. At the same time, you keep feeding the market with resources and L-items, which creates oversupply and pushes prices down.
Click to expand...
Yes and you flooded the game with more UL items for years . The economy that used to be hunters and miners find ingredients for crafters who make gear for hunters and miners to use is now redused. You destroyed the economy in your own game for short turn profit to boost financial reports before the IPO and it seems from your post you knew about the long term outcome for the game.
 
maniake kovine eglute said:
As far as I can see, most people here think that a UL weapon is an investment, but it’s not. An investment generates passive profit. A UL weapon is just a tool that lets you produce output. The game has simply reached a stage where the vast majority of hunters are generating products and want to sell them. The problem is – they don’t want to buy anything. Since UL items keep increasing in number every day, it’s natural that all loot ends up as NANOCUBES.


We also shouldn’t expect new players, because they stand no chance of competing with veterans. It’s hard to believe that in their first month a newcomer would rush to buy a veteran’s weapon for $500–$10,000. :)


That’s why I support making UL items harder to use – after all, UL items distort the economy: their owner becomes a supplier, but consumes nothing.
Click to expand...
It's not for those who don't have them but those who do - such change would make people loose thosands of USD!
 
Ok i don't think the proposed stuff is fixing the issues.

I thought alot about eu economy the last 20 yrs (lol).

-remove usable items from loot, all should be crafted

-this would also make the l merging useless, because crafters can make full tt

-hunter and miner gather ressources for the crafters

-stop distributing ul items altogether (loot an prices), they should be prestige vintage high end items

-find way to reduce ul items ingame ( perhaps like proposed merge 2,3,4 in superiors?)

-all crafts should be from looted ressources (addition of ep bps was one of the worst decisions to economy)

-rework the crafting bp chain, there are 100s of useless bps, at least add new universal crafting chains for weapons etc

-perhaps also make ammo probes etc craftable? Not that easy what is with low population planets? Sth like universal market for such stuff could solve this?

But i think the game already too complex to fix the economy issue.

The system turned away from player driven economy miner/hunter supply crafter, crafter supplies miner/hunter long ago. Without that it is just a casino...
 
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--UNLIMITED--

"once you've got one, the balance is thrown off for good"
--This suggests that said player only has one weapon and never upgrades (or uses tiers above 5 which are not often possible with (L) weapons). Or is this more like once you go uL you never go back? A bit stymied, Is it taboo to have Limited and Unlimited weapons at the same time?

"You stop buying new L-items "
-- ALL markup for an unlimited item is paid in advance to another player (within the bounds of the economy) on purpose at the discretion of the buyer to prevent (L) markup from compounding the losses while hunting. This promotes a longer reroll of ped deposited later, once you have recovered from the initial purchase of the weapon. Let's not forget to mention (L) weapons rarely tier very high before they break. Limited amplifiers are certainly still used by many, although not properly fitting in the case of the Marber BGH which is missing the corresponding Mayhem L-Amplifier 135B (L) or similar.

"demand drops across the entire resource chain"
--This is more likely due to lack of a broader dependency on the materials in question, which can be easily addressed

"you keep feeding the market with resources"
--It is not likely that hunters will stop hunting due to lack of sales. The choices that remain are to TT the loot, make Nanocubes, or try to sell it with some markup to recover some of what was lost already. 10 new players today will feed the market with more resources. Is this the goal or not? If it were 100 or 1000 new players feeding the market is it still the fault of those who use uL?

--LIMITED---

"Combine items of the same type into a single item."
--Brilliant!!

"it would be possible to increase the number of item drops without increasing the total TT value"
--Sounds like Automatic Item Split for a team, umm yes

"The resulting Tier Increase Rate is calculated as a weighted average"
--I sense that a player could choose wisely on each merger and upgrade the tier increase rate at each merger.
--Merged item needs a degradation counter to see how many mergers remain; else everyone has tier 10 whatever (L) forever, with no tiering cost.

"To keep the unlocked Tiers of the main item, the corresponding Tier Components need to be added"
-- Interpreted as: must be one in each box to preserve current tier, but are not considered input materials.

"It would also reduce the necessity of using Residue."
--This would remove the margin of profit you gain by using residue if you intend to sell the initial product.
--The first degradation would be sacrificed if the weapon was not crafted at full TT

My setup is predominantly uL with the exception of amps and and a daily token weapon for backup use. With that having been said, I still don't find it terribly unreasonable to tether repairs to Nanocubes and perhaps Metal Residue or shrapnel. This markup is very low compared to what (L) players struggle with. This seems to follow the same reason Nanocubes were removed from the Trade Terminal. To reconnect a set of players directly to the economy instead of a terminal. The same could be said for Synthetic Mind Essence and other ammunition types. Let them be refined or "smelted" at a forge from mining materials and include at least some small degree of sweat as a sort of flux for the process. Perhaps sweat-buffed ammo and melee polish can be made from rare ores and/or animal oils. While we are at it, mining probes could even be "smelted" with sweat and Nano/Res/Shrap. This would bind mining, hunting, and sweating in a way that reflects the activity directly into the market instead of the Trade Terminal. This could bring visible life back to the economy.

So, in simplest terms, unlimited players are being asked to absorb another 1%-ish in an effort to reconnect with the economy directly. For this to work, I propose that everyone should be willing to step up and allow the same to be done with probes, Synthetic Mind Essence, and all ammunition types as was done with Nanocubes. The sheer volume of materials that would get cycled on a daily basis could prove to be staggering particularly during seasonal peaks. Perhaps some hunters get into mining, and miners get into hunting. Then sweaters can sell sweat daily, and buy the items others are crafting and looting. All for a mere 1%-ish to kick it off. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The idea for Limited items sounds good as well, provided the tiering system and degradation are carefully designed to still allow unlimited items to retain their intrinsic and inherent values.

If you really want to sweeten the pot, rethink the auction fees. If the item does not sell, a larger portion of the fee should be returned to the player to promote it being listed again. You could also consider allowing the markup percentage to be adjustable with precision versus the current 1 ped increment. This would allow smaller stacks and a faster moving economy for lower-level players without stacks of loot valuing 30 ped tt or more just to overcome auction fees. The fee could also be variable for 1-7 days instead of the same. More individual sales, more listings, stable prices, and a flowing economy driven entirely by the players. Just give us the wheel.
 
Last edited:
Socrates|Mindark said:
The following post is from Jonas, our Head of Content at MindArk.

Greetings Entropians,

We've got a couple of changes we want to run by you. This is just a proposal for now, nothing is finalized yet. We understand that the changes are pretty foundational and that this area is very sensitive, which is why we want your input before doing anything with it. The goal is to make sure we’ve looked at it from all angles before deciding whether to move ahead or make any adjustments to the design.

Unlimited​

The economy is arguably the most critical and unique part of the game, and the problem with Unlimited items is that once you've got one, the balance is thrown off for good. You stop buying new L-items and resources, which means demand drops across the entire resource chain. At the same time, you keep feeding the market with resources and L-items, which creates oversupply and pushes prices down.

What we're proposing is a change to the Repair Terminal: instead of using pure PEDs, it would use Nanocubes as input. We propose using Nanocubes because they're flexible, almost anything can be converted into them, there's a good supply, and the most important aspect is that they’re still part of the broader economy.

Limited​

For Limited items, the proposal is to add a system that allows players to Combine items of the same type into a single item. While Limited items remain limited with this change, there are some design issues with how they currently work. Items with very low TT value left are generally not appealing and often end up being useless. Even if they are still usable, carrying around 10 items at 10% each is not a great experience compared to using one item at 100%.

The most important and game-changing aspect is related to the loot. Dropping items with less than 50% TT, or even 75%, causes problems, mainly due to the reason above. It results in inventories being filled with "broken" items that will be difficult to both sell and use. If this limitation was removed, it would be possible to increase the number of item drops without increasing the total TT value dropped of each specific item type. While this update won’t bring a general overhaul of all the loot lists, it will give us more options for the future.

Being able to combine items would also open up some new possibilities in the construction system. The quantity and quality settings could be used more strategically. One example is that you could be focusing on quantity to produce more items with higher Tier Increase Rates. It would also reduce the necessity of using Residue.

The image below shows a prototype of how the interface for this system could look.

index.php


The main item is placed in the smaller box on the left, and all items to be merged into it go into the larger box on the right.

To keep the unlocked Tiers of the main item, the corresponding Tier Components need to be added in the smaller boxes at the bottom. These can be left empty, but doing so will reset the Tiers during the combining process.

The resulting Tier Increase Rate is calculated as a weighted average, based on the TT values of the main item and all input items. The main item has a higher weight in this calculation.

Share Your Thoughts​

To wrap up, this is just a proposal, and we’re looking to gather feedback before making any decisions. These are important systems, and we want to make sure any changes we make are in the best interest of both the game and the community.

Take your time, think about it, let it sink in, and then let us know what you think. Your input will help guide the path forward!

// Jonas, Head of Content
Click to expand...
so MA created a problem by overflooding the market with UL items and now MA complains that there's too many of them and they need to fix it?
when the playerbase is steadily going down for years now did you NOT THINK that it's NOT a good idea to keep adding UL shit?
btw congrats on the steam introduction, did you really think u're gonna have thousands of new players coming to the game? u must be mad
 
Did you guys see what Steam did for CS GO items day ago.

MA just do what you need to do and stop this nonsense.
 
UL reduction:
1. merge 2 normal ones into an adj, then 2 adj into a mod, then 2 mod into an aug, then 2 aug into perfected. the limit is as per stats same as lp120 and the power should increase as per old Ithaca upgrades.
2. (L) have no need to increase TT, they are just to use until they last, that is the idea of (L). if we increase TT to reach higher tier with them, just let all (L) drop at 4000 /4000 so that they are T10 in 20 seconds and can be used at desired DPS. (Yes i am provoking, but (L) should be (L). instead release more powerful limited for higher skill players so that they are competitive with UL.

all of this is distracting us from main issue: All player produce loot, no crafters use loot.
the sales on AH are limited to Enhancers, tier upgrade items and in limited armors.
the ma ufacture of weapons is very limited due to the availability of alternatives
and the cost to sustain higher dps.

We need a "loot sink" system that let the loot be useful

ATM the "closed cycle" is ... Hunt --> get loot --> convert to nano --> ep1..2...3 manufacture --> recyclt to shraps --> convert UNIAMMO, repeat.
this is becoming meta for all the "unsellable" items that are oversupplied alla across the board.

we need to use loot.
 
Msturlese said:
just let all (L) drop at 4000 /4000 so that they are T10 in 20 seconds
Click to expand...

Now this I like the sound off. Make it happen MA

That would then rule out resellers trying to ask higher MU for higher Tier Rate L items as well.
 
Msturlese said:
2. (L) have no need to increase TT, they are just to use until they last, that is the idea of (L). if we increase TT to reach higher tier with them, just let all (L) drop at 4000 /4000 so that they are T10 in 20 seconds and can be used at desired DPS. (Yes i am provoking, but (L) should be (L). instead release more powerful limited for higher skill players so that they are competitive with UL.
Click to expand...
A couple questions for you.

1. What do you mean by "increase TT" when you say that L has no need to increase TT?

2. How does UL stay competitive with L when L is more powerful than UL?
 
Read some but not all of the replies. Not that my opinion is worth a damn but.....

why are we doing mental gymnastics to minimally ncrease demand for stuff when the problem is fixed in one fell swoop by bringing gamblers back into the folds via deletion EP crafting. just put rockets in the TT, remove L weapons and armors from loot, create BPs for all of them, and the problems fix themselves. this can be done in a single VU.

not everything has to be some complex solution to a very simple problem of resource/loot generation v demand imbalances.
 
hey i am just a master noob at all this but after the yrs i have been here i really believe what A-Bomb has said is real important to how we move forward..its not just ubers but ur ground entry base that look and see what they can do..maybe i have it all wrong but hey i yelled out
 
Rocket192 said:
Read some but not all of the replies. Not that my opinion is worth a damn but.....

why are we doing mental gymnastics to minimally ncrease demand for stuff when the problem is fixed in one fell swoop by bringing gamblers back into the folds via deletion EP crafting. just put rockets in the TT, remove L weapons and armors from loot, create BPs for all of them, and the problems fix themselves. this can be done in a single VU.

not everything has to be some complex solution to a very simple problem of resource/loot generation v demand imbalances.
Click to expand...
Would make the most sense as you say about EP crafting and I would add shrapnel crafting too but these can't be touched apparently even though they don't do any good longterm in my opinion.While some can cycle big burning their pedcard in no time with those bps without nothing to show, others are kept on the side with their acitivities/professions because of loot demand. Winning on one side, loosing on the other, in terms of cycling ped.
 
Rocket192 said:
Read some but not all of the replies. Not that my opinion is worth a damn but.....

why are we doing mental gymnastics to minimally ncrease demand for stuff when the problem is fixed in one fell swoop by bringing gamblers back into the folds via deletion EP crafting. just put rockets in the TT, remove L weapons and armors from loot, create BPs for all of them, and the problems fix themselves. this can be done in a single VU.

not everything has to be some complex solution to a very simple problem of resource/loot generation v demand imbalances.
Click to expand...


Everyone on this forum will agree with this but nothing will ever be done because TT revenue/turnover from EP crafting is important to shareholders and there's a non-zero chance that revenue is not replace by more people engaging in the trinity (hunting/mining/crafting) and taking away that dopamine source from shareholders who have enjoyed casino-style revenue models for 5+ years is going to be a nonstarter.

Eventually the carrot at the end of the stick gets rotten though, and if not replaced, the donkey stops moving.

M tokens are worthless, broker is worthless, dilution is rampant, top players in the game aren't posting about making money hand over fist to encourage the game's bread-and-butter (mid-high tier cyclers like yours truly) to play more and play harder in hopes of reaching the upper echelon.

demand destruction results in no one playing the game and the new meta becoming margin-farming at volume via shops, as the only edge becomes not paying auction house fees.

eventually that fails too.


MA.... please put a fresh carrot on the stick.
 
Agg said:
You would be surprised. I have a suggestion on this forum about EP/shrapnel crafting named "returning to the roots".
Click to expand...
Rocket is right about MA getting rid of EP crafting as a non-starter change with the crap hunting loot being able to be turned into nanocubes. But there are other ways they could sort of balance it back to how it was before EP blueprint without removing it. Such as make a new limited attachment blueprint with big markup people could chase called Attachment recycle 1,2,3,4 and have it only be found by grinding out amps so level 1 + 2 lights etc will be crafted again.

And/or

Add super rare drops of blueprints that don't drop anymore and make it a rare hof for excitement and MU. Could add a vendor where you turn in Full TT level 1 and 2 light amps + regular and all amps for xx amount of tokens for a vendor and have it be year round or even few times per year like mayhem is setup. In the vendor could be say old ones like 1 full set of ghost armor blueprint UL, F105/106 finders or new blueprints that are super eco per level whatever.

There's a million different ways to boost crafting but they still just don't get how vital crafting is to the game as a whole. They see hunting as the major source of income and try to find ways to improve that cycle only. Completely ignoring that people grind for markup that comes from crafting the hunting/mining loot.
 
I’d really like the sharpening limited mechanic in the Hub, since there hasn’t been any real content there for a long time. Only newbies sometimes farm lime tokens or suicide for other tokens. There are just two limited not cool weapons for sharpening, and they’re pretty bad for hunting with not many mobs around.
But if sharpening existing weapons could improve drop rates, it would give players who used to farm lime tokens and crazy old fans hub of the Black lime Cloak a create great boost.
And if it seems too OP, it could simply be limited to the Hub area and 550k lime token its real hard farm.
Right now, in my opinion, the Hub is basically just a transition zone for Rangers.
 
Well, I don't think I'm going to vote, because I think the whole proposal is in itself an avoidance of the real issues; lack of fresh ideas on how to make people grind aside from promissing them high-end UL gear.

Rocket is right, the carrot is beginning to stink and other professions (mining and crafting) will be totally destroyed if MA can't figure this out. Hunting will suffer too once everyone has UL gear, without any other reason to hunt.

There's a real lack of either vision, or motivation here...
 
Legends said:
Well, I don't think I'm going to vote, because I think the whole proposal is in itself an avoidance of the real issues; lack of fresh ideas on how to make people grind aside from promissing them high-end UL gear.
Click to expand...
I would be interested in your opinion, no matter how useless it may be. I don't like the approach of people who don't vote and then curse,
 
I can list probably 10 reasons that some people might grind, and really that's the sort of thing that should be polled, but here's some ideas:

1. A pet mount

2. An apartment estate at Port Atlantis (seriously, how come these don't exist yet?)

3. An exclusive (L) vehicle (the witches broom was tremendously popular and I've seen peeps offer 1000 ped for one. The UFO still costs about 800, something could be done here for an exclusive, limited run vehicle)

4. Mission chains that reward with really nice, exclusive outfits (many to choose from)

5. Deeds (it could make sense for a high level of activity in a specific location to yield deeds for that location)

6. Land Plot buildings (MA obviously lacks vision with this one, so much potential totally wasted)

7. New profession unlocks

8. Vanity/Status, there's lots of that in this game. Time to overhaul the HoF board and include new categories or even some rankings, such as "completed missions", "Highest HP avatars", "mob kills", "dropped probes", "monthly/yearly turnover"... Entropia Life has some that could inspire this.

9. To unlock new missions or areas (IFN/Smuggler style)

10. To discover new mobs (some fun was had with this a long time ago, there was a contest, etc... Figure out a way to get people grinding for a new mob again).

In the end, this is a game about making money and what people will always grind for is profits, so the more popular ideas above will be ones that people can see as being converted into profits most easily.

There some other ideas which are kinda crazy but that are worth looking at:

1. Being able to buy NPCs. I would love to be able to own an NPCs that hands out missions which I could place in a shop or estate that I own. Land Area owners should be most interested in this sort of thing, but shop owners too if there's a way to coordinate the NPC's purpose with the purpose of the shop.

2. Owning a team instance/raid, something like RDI. It could be done like on Ark and RT, with the "keys" being crafted and sold at a profit, or the instance just having a tax like OLA.
 
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