Mindark Reorganizes and announces Ai - Initiative

[San]

Funny how so many think ChatGPT is the AI they are talking about

Most likely it is not but one needs a catchy label to stick on, or an example for comparison or satire. If I took this seriously, I'd already stumble over the word "think".

 

[Ferial]

Mostly hired for UE5. Seems like a common thing for companies. It's a lot cheaper and easier to over hire than hire the exact amount or accidentally under hire.

This is usually true in most countries, it seems. However not in Sweden. It is usually a very costly procedure to fire a single worker (unless that person is severely mishandling their position) in Sweden.

This way off mass layoffs were used in the past to get around the LIFO policy when you needed to fire a particular worker you had to fire everyone that was hired after that person (given certain circumstances). Regulations concerning re-employment of laid off workers (and/or refilling the position with a new hire) are now in place to prevent the circumvention of LIFO.

It would make sense however that they wanted more people onboard for the initial world building and now that is "done" they can claim that there is no longer any need for the positions. It would have been cheaper to hire people on a "duration specified" position than overhire and lay off. Perhaps it would be difficult to get the required talent level and as such they are taking the cost. If this is the case, it is a very douche move as an employer.

I'm sure all is good at MA, sure some will need to find a new job but that's how life works. A lot of them were probably hired to do some foundation work for UE5 and now is no longer needed.

This is all fine and well if it was labeled as such from the start. Hiring a bunch of people to work on "expanding the platform" and "migrating" only to lay them off less than a year later (in some cases) is a shitty move at best. A terrible financial decision at worse. There are structures in place for temporary hires in Sweden (as you are likely well aware). Firing people is a long and costly process (in most cases) in Sweden.

But seriously, inflation has been hitting hard in Sweden and if the need to cut costs is driving these changes, then it's difficult to argue with. What they hope to achieve with AI instead, I am also curious to hear. The developer notes are underused.

Inflation has been hitting hard in Sweden, that is true. This inflation has not yet been seen in labor costs, in an effort to manage the inflation. I find it unlikely that inflation has much at all to do with this decision.

A board wipe and layoff of 25 people in the middle of an engine upgrade and game redesign is never a good thing.

This. 100% this.

 

[San]

Inflation has been hitting hard in Sweden, that is true. This inflation has not yet been seen in labor costs, in an effort to manage the inflation. I find it unlikely that inflation has much at all to do with this decision.

Yes, but it wasn't implied that wages would be adapted automatically. It depends on how much pressure is there from operating costs so that saving on HR costs becomes necessary. I can't claim to know, it was just a point not considered further above.

What we don't currently know is whether this change is motivated by general economic pressure or was already planned to occur when most of the workload with the engine upgrade would be done. It says there "The majority of the affected positions are in the fields of graphics and world-building." It would be beneficial for a positive assessment if they could be transparent about whether these were, for example, UE5-trained people hired for the transition in the first place. Otherwise, the inverse conclusion will gain more room, that they were not and things are generally bad. This is going to weigh on share prices. Or, it is actually the case and therefore won't be admitted.

 

[Sulje]

it might be that they will outsource designers, as designers are common and changeable like socks. Why not pay them less

 

[jetsina]

It would be beneficial for a positive assessment if they could be transparent about whether these were, for example, UE5-trained people hired for the transition in the first place.

In MA's world, words just don't mean the same. For example, transparent might mean almost 100% opaque, but not quite, or 'extremely dim' .
However, MA may have ring-fenced dev costs by almost completely giving UE5 work to new employees who can then be offloaded again.
Maybe we need some coffee shop input?
I would think, however, that there are two halves to the workload: creating masses of 'world' to a particular style, then tieing it into and populating it with MA platform stuff.

I have long believed that it is the RCE platform itself that has the real value, and I can understand that few people are allowed access to the internal workings, probably just a handful even of the main employee base.

 

[unufain8]

Judgement day for EU.

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

It would make sense however that they wanted more people onboard for the initial world building and now that is "done" they can claim that there is no longer any need for the positions. It would have been cheaper to hire people on a "duration specified" position than overhire and lay off. Perhaps it would be difficult to get the required talent level and as such they are taking the cost. If this is the case, it is a very douche move as an employer.

We don't know that they weren't contracts though. We also don't know if they were straight up outsourced or just shared by Epic.

Now of course if some ex Mindark employees come out and share some negative information than of course. But this does truly seem like par the course

 

[Wistrel]

I expected MA to make an "AI bandwagon" announcement about sometime between now and this time next year but didn't expect them to be laying off creative staff citing it as one of the reasons (noting the dividend thing too), especially with an engine move that they so far have shown off very little progress with (one scene over and over that could have been from the engine demo levels or at least lightly adapted from and some concept art for a modular dome plus various mob re-imaginings + some early UI design thoughts... not to mention their rather fuzzy corporate strategy about the project*).

I wonder who will do the (real) work...

As for them having natural language interactions with NPCs etc I'll believe it when I see it. Yes the tech is out there and works really well (I invite you to have an argument with Ellie Williams https://inworld.ai/arcade/q2TD1BJvMV2Naouc if you are skeptical) but as for MA actually making use of something like this... no... can't see it happening.

Wistrel

* "yes well we all got together regularly in a room, did a rough calculation of our collective hourly rate for the meetings, laughed about how much we were costing the company, and more or less decided we wanted to keep doing what we've always done... but not in any concrete terms that mean enough for anyone to ever be able to actually hold us to anything"

 

[Wistrel]

We don't know that they weren't contracts though. We also don't know if they were straight up outsourced or just shared by Epic.

Now of course if some ex Mindark employees come out and share some negative information than of course. But this does truly seem like par the course

Does anyone actually know how far they've got with the conversion at this stage?

For example:

- Do they have an equivalent sized land area they can run the unreal robot guy about in yet?
- Do they have networking and some equivalent of server squares up and running?
- How is space looking?
- Are systems like inventory, object templates, trade mechanics etc in place?
- Skills?
- What about UI's for in game systems?
- Mob mechanics?
- Progress through recreating or porting the assets?
- Sound?
- API for external apps like the authenticator/virtual tycoon?
- Avatar creation? / Porting?

There must be a list a mile long. It's all very well showing off the occasional screenshot but what about all the other stuff? Last impression I got was that they were taking some time to experiment a bit and learn the engine/tools... which sounded very sensible as a first step but there has to be a point when they start hauling everything over too...

Wistrel

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

Ellie Williams https://inworld.ai/arcade/q2TD1BJvMV2Naouc if you are skeptical)

We're going on a date next tuesday

 

[Gladora]

Oh, another example of a long line of MA's catastrophic communication skills. Business as usual.

 

[billairboy]

Both here and on discord people seem concerned with the AI developing parts of the game, i recently saw a video on a Unreal Engine update which might help some of you understand what I think this might relate to.

It's not a concern that they use AI, that can be good addition. The concern is that kick out a big share of the employees working with graphic and world creations even beforet the AI is in place.... AI should be a complement and a tool, nothing that replaces the human resources working with the game.

 

[Nik-Elas]

It's not a concern that they use AI, that can be good addition. The concern is that kick out a big share of the employees working with graphic and world creations even beforet the AI is in place.... AI should be a complement and a tool, nothing that replaces the human resources working with the game.

And how do you know they will do that?
It says nowhere when the employees will stop working there, or which AI they're talking about, so it could already be in place.

 

[Naomi]

Maybe then can double their withdrawal employees now and hire a second person.


edit: this post was ment to be humorous.

But I'm not even joking actually. Imho, as posted in threads before, more trust in speedy withdrawals WILL gain trust with the public and equal into more deposits.

 

[PreyNaika]

Lets all agree that most of people actualy have no idea how the gaming insustry Work...

I think most of the people who play eu never played anything else


Its very Common to hire people and then get rid of them (its in theyr contracts too)
Its common sence too... you hire people for a project, when the project is done there is no reason to keep.
----

Many games use so called "AI"

NPCs for example fall under "AI"
Advanced "AI" culd controll drop rate of stuff by demand. But that takes to much Ressources.

 

[Naomi]

 

[Wistrel]

Maybe then can double their withdrawal employees now and hire a second person.


edit: this post was ment to be humorous.

But I'm not even joking actually. Imho, as posted in threads before, more trust in speedy withdrawals WILL gain trust with the public and equal into more deposits.

MA have deep pockets and short arms...

 

[Wistrel]

Lets all agree that most of people actualy have no idea how the gaming insustry Work...

I think most of the people who play eu never played anything else


Its very Common to hire people and then get rid of them (its in theyr contracts too)
Its common sence too... you hire people for a project, when the project is done there is no reason to keep.
----

Many games use so called "AI"

NPCs for example fall under "AI"
Advanced "AI" culd controll drop rate of stuff by demand. But that takes to much Ressources.

So the engine move is done? Graphics all sorted? All assets ported over or equivalents created? All the other things I previously listed dusted and out of the door? Somehow I think not...

 

[Nik-Elas]

So the engine move is done? Graphics all sorted? All assets ported over or equivalents created? All the other things I previously listed dusted and out of the door? Somehow I think not...

Let's be real, Mindark is not that incompetent that they would fire everyone on the day and just hope stuff is done, be realistic, either it's mostly done and the staff that's meant to be terminated have maybe like till the end of the month. Or, they're finishing up what need to be done and put in a "couple month notice", it's a Swedish company after all so they're quite humane I would assume. Letting their employees know they're being laid off in time for them to find a different job, let's say a few months even.
They've been around for 2 decades so I doubt they're shooting themselves in their feet and just being cheap and idiotic.
For sure I can be wrong as I have no clue what I'm talking about but to be that's the logical and realistic way to handle business, no? And as @PreyNaika and others have mentioned, this is not a uncommon action within the industry which seems sensible imo.

 

[DaisyColdFinger]

removed

 

[Wistrel]

They've been around for 2 decades so I doubt they're shooting themselves in their feet and just being cheap and idiotic.

Isn't that their calling card?

Com Pets, Crypto, crypto eggs, unreal tokens, banks, in game advertising, affiliate program, social media tie ins, land deeds buildings, unfinished buggy systems, low standards of art/asset creation/testing, lighting issues, falling through floors, mobs attacking from under the ground, getting rid of game elements because deleting is easier than fixing.

And that's just a handful of things that immediately popped into my head. There are many more. All examples of poor decisions and resources not being spent on quality.

This is just normal for MA and most expect little more of them after 20 years of the same play book.

Wistrel

 

[Nik-Elas]

Isn't that their calling card?

Com Pets, Crypto, crypto eggs, unreal tokens, banks, in game advertising, affiliate program, social media tie ins, land deeds buildings, unfinished buggy systems, low standards of art/asset creation/testing, lighting issues, falling through floors, mobs attacking from under the ground, getting rid of game elements because deleting is easier than fixing.

And that's just a handful of things that immediately popped into my head. There are many more. All examples of poor decisions and resources not being spent on quality.

This is just normal for MA and most expect little more of them after 20 years of the same play book.

Wistrel

To me, this sounds like MA is open to new opportunities and ready to take non treaded paths, obviously everything can't be successful and prosper the way they want. Some mistakes were made, some bigger than others.
As for the bugs, please tell me one game with 20yr record with 0 bugs?!
Let's be real, if they're as incompetent as you make them sound, would they really be making money for decades with a very loyal customer base? Doubt it..

 

[jetsina]

Isn't that their calling card?

They don't directly hand you it, but your next plumber finds it behind the sink when called out for repairs .
Your list that's about 15 long contains one I disagree with, but I think we know the human results well enough by now.

If AI gets a proper go without too much interference it may fail the Turing test with us because it now surpasses our expectations instead of falling short. I am aware that I can generally tell if someone has used chatGPT for help because there no speeeling mistakes or other gramatticcal irrors. Not quite what Turing had in mind methinks, for mankind to go diving just as AI aims to match us ...
Still, to use a current marketing slogan, but as AI speaking out loud: thanks MA devs, I'll take it from here.

 

[Crabby]

Good luck with that. A board wipe and layoff of 25 people in the middle of an engine upgrade and game redesign is never a good thing. I'd hazard a guess that we won't even see Unreal now. Clearly the shareholders (tatiana?) didn't want to see the game go the Unreal route, and its now redirected. I'm curious what AI is out there building MMORPGs atm. I've never heard of one that comprehensive where it makes sense to fire 25 artists and developers.


Happy my investment in this game is now closer to zero than it used to be. I'll keep moving in that direction.

GGs

If a method comes up with the capability of generating foundations that environmental artists can then take to completion, you no longer need that many environmental artists. The work flow is improved, suddenly less people get more work done. You can then use those resources towards other aspects of the project. And for migrating an entire mmorpg to another engine, its not a bad idea.

It really just seems at this point you are trying to find some reassuring validation for your personal investment choices. It comes across as very odd. Are you waiting around just to tell everyone "I told you so?" thats just weird.

 

[toad]

Well, if they are in such a good position as to be able to lay off all these people, I hope they are going to show off what they achieved in UE5 shortly, judging by this it can't be far off a show able condition.

It does not say when these people will be layed off, very possible that there employment could end at different times up until the change to UE5 is done.

 

[Wistrel]

To me, this sounds like MA is open to new opportunities and ready to take non treaded paths, obviously everything can't be successful and prosper the way they want. Some mistakes were made, some bigger than others.
As for the bugs, please tell me one game with 20yr record with 0 bugs?!
Let's be real, if they're as incompetent as you make them sound, would they really be making money for decades with a very loyal customer base? Doubt it..

I don't disagree that they've done well to last these 2 decades. I've put it down to tight controls on expenditure on the game's development though and not spending on advertising that would bring in enough people to hammer the platform.

Anyone remember when Az slashdotted the asteroid sale and oranges fell from the sky so hard they started spawning all over the map? Not that I want to diss those times. Collecting them and getting them safely to civilisation and helping them out were some of the most fun times I remember in game. Good memories.

But yeh there is surviving and then there is thriving and I don't think Entropia ever thrived. It trundled along on the minimum it could get away with. While this makes for a nice stable pay check for those at the top it rarely made for a high quality gaming experience. As for why people stick with the platform... probably best we don't get into that topic. I don't want to trigger a thread lock.

Wistrel

 

[krogfan]

If a method comes up with the capability of generating foundations that environmental artists can then take to completion, you no longer need that many environmental artists. The work flow is improved, suddenly less people get more work done. You can then use those resources towards other aspects of the project. And for migrating an entire mmorpg to another engine, its not a bad idea.

It really just seems at this point you are trying to find some reassuring validation for your personal investment choices. It comes across as very odd. Are you waiting around just to tell everyone "I told you so?" thats just weird.

Yes, I understand the benefits of AI. But that method/AI tech doesn't exist yet, not at the level MA needs. You're welcome to do your own research, as I have, and come to your own informed conclusions about MindArk's actions, instead of attempting to undermine (for some reason) my position with generalities about workflow efficiency and judgements of my personal investment in this game (which is borderline zero these days).


There's also some longstanding background information about how the majority shareholder of this company likes to do things, and lets just say that this is a fine example of his poor "leadership" and typical infantile response when he isn't getting his way.

But feel free to explain what you know about MindArk, corporate operations, game design, and how my statement(s) are invalid to you.

 

[Sulje]

Yes, I understand the benefits of AI. But that method/AI tech doesn't exist yet, not at the level MA needs. You're welcome to do your own research, as I have, and come to your own informed conclusions about MindArk's actions, instead of attempting to undermine (for some reason) my position with generalities about workflow efficiency and judgements of my personal investment in this game (which is borderline zero these days).


There's also some longstanding background information about how the majority shareholder of this company likes to do things, and lets just say that this is a fine example of his poor "leadership" and typical infantile response when he isn't getting his way.

But feel free to explain what you know about MindArk, corporate operations, game design, and how my statement(s) are invalid to you.

Something a bit over $15k borderline costs.

 

[Crabby]

Yes, I understand the benefits of AI. But that method/AI tech doesn't exist yet, not at the level MA needs. You're welcome to do your own research, as I have, and come to your own informed conclusions about MindArk's actions, instead of attempting to undermine (for some reason) my position with generalities about workflow efficiency and judgements of my personal investment in this game (which is borderline zero these days).

No I don't think you do. AI and algorithms have been used for world generation for a long time now, and they've only improved. No one is creating entire hand painted open worlds from scratch this was true 10 years ago, and its true today. Recently its been used for 3D models, which is a good thing because you eliminate alot the dirty work, and have your more essential and talented artists complete it.

You create a base using primitive objects, then you sculpt it to a high poly model, Then you retopoligize, create UVs, bake normal maps, and paint the texture.

AI eliminates the first part as it capable of creating viable bases for sculpting, that leaves us with sculpting and painting. Everything else is easy. And I'd argue if you had the right materials to choose from, painting is easy, which I'd imagine they do. You can decimate triangles automatically using tools for ANY 3d model that isn't organic AND gonna be animated. This eliminates the need to optimize the vast majority of models by hand.

I spent 3 years in school learning visual arts with a heavy emphasis on computer graphics. There I learned to use Maya, Photoshop, illustrator to create content and put together projects using unreal 3, unity 3/4, throughout those years I exceeded expectations with 3d art and 3d environments. So your 'position with generalities about workflow efficiency' doesn't mean anything to me. I understand youre just itching to tell everyone "I told you so", but this aint it

 

[krogfan]

No I don't think you do. AI and algorithms have been used for world generation for a long time now, and they've only improved. No one is creating entire hand painted open worlds from scratch this was true 10 years ago, and its true today. Recently its been used for 3D models, which is a good thing because you eliminate alot the dirty work, and have your more essential and talented artists complete it.

You create a base using primitive objects, then you sculpt it to a high poly model, Then you retopoligize, create UVs, bake normal maps, and paint the texture.

AI eliminates the first part as it capable of creating viable bases for sculpting, that leaves us with sculpting and painting. Everything else is easy. And I'd argue if you had the right materials to choose from, painting is easy, which I'd imagine they do. You can decimate triangles automatically using tools for ANY 3d model that isn't organic AND gonna be animated. This eliminates the need to optimize the vast majority of models by hand.

I spent 3 years in school learning visual arts with a heavy emphasis on computer graphics. There I learned to use Maya, Photoshop, illustrator to create content and put together projects using unreal 3, unity 3/4, throughout those years I exceeded expectations with 3d art and 3d environments. So your 'position with generalities about workflow efficiency' doesn't mean anything to me. I understand youre just itching to tell everyone "I told you so", but this aint it

I guess we'll find out.