Mining finder radius fake

[Nick Co0Lio]

Hey there!

I've been conducting some testing and... I want more feedback on this and more ideas on what's going on. I believe this is NOT new, just something I didn't really stop to think about before:

go to LBML (or not) and reduce radius to 27,5m on planet (calypso for example). Now go mine you'll find a path or vein of deposits... even using half the radius. How can this be?

Thoughts?

So... the subject I really wanted was... fake radius or more claims than expected in ground? What I don't get is... sometimes I'll drop a bomb and hit two claims, then run 27,5 and it finds another ORE claim for example, and the claim rod is NEXT TO my last claim... not outside. I honestly believe we're passing claims by with 55m radius... for good or bad... but I want to see if anyone can shed some light on this.

 

[LeelooM]

This is very normal.

After a drop (dual in this case) and stand still, you might get 2 claims : 1 enm and 1 ore that is closest to you.

If you drop again now you can get another 1 or 2 claims or even a 3th after another drop but the % of finding a claim again is getting very small and not worth it.

 

[Darth Revan]

There is no path or vein of deposits anymore. Its all just RNG with some modification. You can just go 10m away from where you stood and get another claim and repeat. Hell i've ran around in a circle the size of a finder radius and got the same hit rate i would have got by dropping every 50m or 100m. Some days you get a better hit rate than others. It's up to you to stop when it's going south.

 

[forgo]

Lower range on the finder is a modification factor for claim size, not claim rate or placement. Considering the somewhat calculated RNG nature of the returns, claim placement will always be a variable we will never see a consistent pattern for IMO.

Range halves indoors, thus making claims bigger.

This is also why the old school md-10-50 finders have some value beyond rarity, they are slightly smaller range and state these facts directly in the description. (which you can read on auction orders)

 

[Nick Co0Lio]

That sucks! Really so random? Angle, distance, coordinates, nothing you do influences hitrate or loot?

So... why would people run 55m when 27 works. I could just go foma and run 10m and keep dropping and i could keep hitting hofs, right?

 

[LeelooM]

That sucks! Really so random? Angle, distance, coordinates, nothing you do influences hitrate or loot?

So... why would people run 55m when 27 works. I could just go foma and run 10m and keep dropping and i could keep hitting hofs, right?

HR planetside is around 30 % .... indoor like foma 5% ....

 

[livius]

This is very normal.

After a drop (dual in this case) and stand still, you might get 2 claims : 1 enm and 1 ore that is closest to you.

If you drop again now you can get another 1 or 2 claims or even a 3th after another drop but the % of finding a claim again is getting very small and not worth it.

By stand still you also mean that if I drop in X place and I’m running fast 100 m during the search , the claim that I’ll find it will be in the nearest place from where the drop was made or in the nearest place that I’m standing after run?

 

[LeelooM]

By stand still you also mean that if I drop in X place and I’m running fast 100 m during the search , the claim that I’ll find it will be in the nearest place from where the drop was made or in the nearest place that I’m standing after run?

Nearest where you dropped

 

[kingofaces]

Lower range on the finder is a modification factor for claim size, not claim rate or placement.

I've been meaning to test some of that. When you go indoors yes, but I wonder if it's different outdoors? It's possible MA set the two up to work a bit differently. Otherwise, those mining range enhancers would be lowering your claim size while paying for extra decay. That doesn't really make sense unless it does increase hit rate (though you'd need a large hit rate increase to even justify them if they do increase it outdoors and there is no claim size decrease).

All speculation at this point though.

 

[ClosedFile]

Only check is coords when dropping, all the rest is decoration. changed prolly since CE.

 

[Rocket192]

my returns literally prove and depend on the radius being a false measurement.

 

[R4tt3xx]

This thread ruffled my feathers... I have been using a bit of math to create a grid and blah, blah, blah.. The point is I think that Nick is correct and I can prove it.. Using Maths

I have performed the calculations and will test them a bit later today ...

 

[Jade Draconis]

My recent runs on my log have been positive or close to breakeven. Ive been doing 40 m drops and usualy i hit multiple pockets of triple resources(Arakdia ofc). This effectively proves the range is BS on the finder. Indoors is a different beast all together. I dont like indoors hence will never test anything there. For outdoors, certain servers i have observed on Arkadia are an exception to the 40m rule no matter how big a sample i take. to put it simple, 70% of the runs i did with an approx 40-50m drop radius have shown positive returns. Feel free to try it yourself.

 

[Sw4g MaSt3r]

My recent runs on my log have been positive or close to breakeven. Ive been doing 40 m drops and usualy i hit multiple pockets of triple resources(Arakdia ofc). This effectively proves the range is BS on the finder. Indoors is a different beast all together. I dont like indoors hence will never test anything there. For outdoors, certain servers i have observed on Arkadia are an exception to the 40m rule no matter how big a sample i take. to put it simple, 70% of the runs i did with an approx 40-50m drop radius have shown positive returns. Feel free to try it yourself.

yeah 40-50m distance is what I usualy drop at, Although I dont think the range is total BS.

There is no path or vein of deposits anymore. Its all just RNG with some modification. You can just go 10m away from where you stood and get another claim and repeat. Hell i've ran around in a circle the size of a finder radius and got the same hit rate i would have got by dropping every 50m or 100m. Some days you get a better hit rate than others. It's up to you to stop when it's going south.

I try this and hit rate was 1%. Tried standing still and hit rate was also 1%. Walking with auto use was 14% and my usual 40-50m drop distance (pretty much runing with speed buff on auto use) was 36% hit rate.
ofc these were my results and you should always do your own R&D but you can take that info and do as you will with it

 

[Geo]

It’s a sphere from the depth of detonation, not a cylinder.

 

[Geo]

You also find the claims in order of which is closest to the point of detonation as the explosion radiates outwards.
When you drop a probe and the claims appear right on top of the drop, a second probe could be dropped to search for claims outside the radius of the first claim.

 

[R4tt3xx]

Why is it not a cylinder ?

The probe is dropped, moves down 200-average depth of the tool and starts scanning 400m down, the commits' suicide, poor probe, unless it's very poor, or small..

 

[R4tt3xx]

What i think is happening is that a resource field is generated around the avatar as they walk, much the same way that fruit and dung just suddenly spawn next to the avatar. Hit a set trigger, and the magic happens.. Same thing with skills, I think they show you where a resource has or had spawned nearby.

 

[anonimity]

It’s a sphere from the depth of detonation, not a cylinder.

this isn't true. stand on the side of a cliff and mine. you will eventually hit claims 200m down the slope. which is well beyond 55m

 

[Geo]

this isn't true. stand on the side of a cliff and mine. you will eventually hit claims 200m down the slope. which is well beyond 55m

Down a cliff would be depth
It would still be within 55m with relation to longitude/latitude.

 

[R4tt3xx]

So the mining range is fake... In that case than the fake black listing of the coordinates that you are probing on should also be removed... As actual moving large distances when mining is pointless... So why create a "fake" mining system ?

 

[slick27]

I don't think the radius is entirely fake although I'm still testing indoor mining although I got max run speed for item 25% which should cover enough ground to go over 25 meters? Also on auto cycle. You do see pockets resources and if you been particularly badly beaten TT wise or on high your finder is finding resources in same position at alot depths.

 

[Nik-Elas]

Before reading this, I was always walking 110m between drops, after I read this o pretty much just drop whenever. No find? Wait a few extra seconds, found a claim? Drop straight after the find.
To be fair I've not logged but I can't see any difference, if any, it's for the better. So yeah this range "feels" a bit off, not sure how range enhancers work and what that would mean but yeah nah yeah

 

[kingofaces]

Some of the testing is still in my sig, and I think this thread is what started that testing back then.

Basically, nothing has really changed since then when repeating it. If you or someone else drops within a certain diameter area, it will take time for the hit rate to return to "normal" or pre-drop levels. If you mine an area just a few minutes after dropping in that exact area, you'll be looking at around a 5% HR in those first few minutes. It's not going to be exactly zero since it does seem like the "respawn" rate is pretty quick (and explains why people occasionally see claims pop up where they already mined), but you can definitely measure an effect if you exactly overlap with your last drops. It's like when a mob spawns on top of you essentially.

Keep in mind that testing was to look at the actual mechanics. Folks that overlap usually instead have minimal overlap since they're still running a good distance (overlap decreases quickly with area of a circle), so they probably aren't going to notice an obvious difference, and you'd need some pretty high sample sizes to detect differences at that point. If you confine things to focus on just isolating the radius effect as much as possible though, there are effects.

Since there's been talk of spheres, cylinders, etc. claims basically exist on a 2-d surface of your lat/long coordinates. Depth doesn't affect hit rate (e.g., you can mine an area at shallow depth to "clear" it out, and get very few claims with a deeper finder at say 800m). That's at least what you can pull from testing. How it seems to be setup in whatever logic/algorithm MA uses is first a claim is found, and then it is decided what resource that is based on depth or other factors. It's not a perfect analogy, but depth is somewhat like dpp in hunting, at least in terms of varying the loot composition. It doesn't seem to come into play for anything related to HR, TT, etc.

You also find the claims in order of which is closest to the point of detonation as the explosion radiates outwards.
When you drop a probe and the claims appear right on top of the drop, a second probe could be dropped to search for claims outside the radius of the first claim.

Geo explained it well that there can be multiple existing claims within your search radius. Usually you're going to find the claim closest to you, and if others exist, the next drop will pick up the next closest one, etc. I think my record for stationary repeat drops like this was either 3 or 4 claims of one resource before that search radius was depleted just as part of testing. I only re-drop if I find a claim right next to me in normal mining though.

 

[R4tt3xx]

Some of the testing is still in my sig, and I think this thread is what started that testing back then.

Basically, nothing has really changed since then when repeating it. If you or someone else drops within a certain diameter area, it will take time for the hit rate to return to "normal" or pre-drop levels. If you mine an area just a few minutes after dropping in that exact area, you'll be looking at around a 5% HR in those first few minutes. It's not going to be exactly zero since it does seem like the "respawn" rate is pretty quick (and explains why people occasionally see claims pop up where they already mined), but you can definitely measure an effect if you exactly overlap with your last drops. It's like when a mob spawns on top of you essentially.

Keep in mind that testing was to look at the actual mechanics. Folks that overlap usually instead have minimal overlap since they're still running a good distance (overlap decreases quickly with area of a circle), so they probably aren't going to notice an obvious difference, and you'd need some pretty high sample sizes to detect differences at that point. If you confine things to focus on just isolating the radius effect as much as possible though, there are effects.

Since there's been talk of spheres, cylinders, etc. claims basically exist on a 2-d surface of your lat/long coordinates. Depth doesn't affect hit rate (e.g., you can mine an area at shallow depth to "clear" it out, and get very few claims with a deeper finder at say 800m). That's at least what you can pull from testing. How it seems to be setup in whatever logic/algorithm MA uses is first a claim is found, and then it is decided what resource that is based on depth or other factors. It's not a perfect analogy, but depth is somewhat like dpp in hunting, at least in terms of varying the loot composition. It doesn't seem to come into play for anything related to HR, TT, etc.



Geo explained it well that there can be multiple existing claims within your search radius. Usually you're going to find the claim closest to you, and if others exist, the next drop will pick up the next closest one, etc. I think my record for stationary repeat drops like this was either 3 or 4 claims of one resource before that search radius was depleted just as part of testing. I only re-drop if I find a claim right next to me in normal mining though.

So here is something interesting to think about.. A dynamic system adjusts and changes over time, perfectly acceptable behavior except that it clashes with a static system of points. A resource can spawn as a result of an action on a set coordinate within the range of the finder. The "black hole" that is applied, is only applied to it's origin, ie it's exact set of coordinates.

Another way to think of this is with a bit of maths.... Yes boring maths...

Distance between claims = (grid size /2 /number of claims)^(1/2). The more you inject resources into an area, the more likely it is to overflow.

Here is a bit more interesting math for you, there are over 2000 possible coordinate sets within the diameter of a md1 assuming a range of 1 m.

Oh and just a heads-up it's not 2d, it's (x)th d, by increasing the power of the formula above you can fit a massive amount of claims in a small area..

(I just worked it out, if max d = 4*pi()*r^2 (yes look at who has been learning maths), the amount of claims, max in a 108m radius is a terrifying
5.88711E+21 claims...


Also, claims are generated, they are not found..

Sorry if my thoughts are sometimes off topic and jumbled, this is how my brain works. I am just writing the stuff down without really thinking about it.

 

[slick27]

So here is something interesting to think about.. A dynamic system adjusts and changes over time, perfectly acceptable behavior except that it clashes with a static system of points. A resource can spawn as a result of an action on a set coordinate within the range of the finder. The "black hole" that is applied, is only applied to it's origin, ie it's exact set of coordinates.

Another way to think of this is with a bit of maths.... Yes boring maths...

Distance between claims = (grid size /2 /number of claims)^(1/2). The more you inject resources into an area, the more likely it is to overflow.

Here is a bit more interesting math for you, there are over 2000 possible coordinate sets within the diameter of a md1 assuming a range of 1 m.

Oh and just a heads-up it's not 2d, it's (x)th d, by increasing the power of the formula above you can fit a massive amount of claims in a small area..

(I just worked it out, if max d = 4*pi()*r^2 (yes look at who has been learning maths), the amount of claims, max in a 108m radius is a terrifying
5.88711E+21 claims...


Also, claims are generated, they are not found..

Sorry if my thoughts are sometimes off topic and jumbled, this is how my brain works. I am just writing the stuff down without really thinking about it.

So your telling me that every time I drop a probe in the 5.88711e+21 claims their are more then 100+ ath in their I missed great!

 

[Nick Co0Lio]

Hello Creator of the thread here, to add to the fun. I've been testing NON stop for a long time now.... It seems this is DYNAMIC, i.e. you can follow VEINS of claims if you get your 'angles' right after every hit... it seems you can't follow the vein by mining INDIVIDUAL resource types... you need to activate everything on the finder (3 types on arkadia) since MA generates the resource randomly and it may generate a type you aren't searching for).

To those interested, please set radius to 27.5 and let me know what you find. For me it's more successful than 55radius.... the finder does say it scans at a range of 55... why did we assume that's 55 diameter? I hit tons of claims at 55m total separation.

Hmm what else? Well, yea... as king of aces said i'm sometimes surprised by respawn and try to follow the vein but it's dead cos i've just mined it... it probably is not a great idea to do that.

I'll be doing some grid mining soon, and studying the way it's set up... But for example, when doubling back over where i've just been, sometimes I hit again, and it's a 2 oil or some crappy claim, mainly due to the respawn... IT MAY BE that areas UNTOUCHED, with an 'older' ground, have a higher chance of a global, since newly respawned claims seem smaller.

OK!

Also, have you guys mined an area and found 3 claims that pop up right next to eachother, but you FOUND them at different points? WELL, that's prolly cos the claim is not WHERE the deposit is, it's just where you need to go to pull the resource out of the ground.... I've found stuff by moving 30m that I SHOULD have found, but i didn't... I.E. fake radius.

When I say fake i mean... It will give you claims up to 55m any direction, CLAIMS (RODS), not FIND actual deposits that far (110m). I recommend you all to reduce radius to half and test. Please post results! Let's try to shed some light on this as it's such a great topic. Feel free to hit me up in game ^^ I'm Squall Nicolas LionHart. I'd love a chat with fellow miners.

Also, depth does NOT affect hit rate or size of claim... FINDER MIGHT.... I've seen smaller claims (under global) with F-101, than with 105 or DSEC 30.... (I know DSEC is amped, bla bla). But still, no bigger than a 12 so far in a while now... OK good luck and let's keep at it!

P.S. I dunno about cilinder or circle or what, but I DO BELIEVE it's radar-based. The finder has 3 circles on it when you open it, same as the drill when you use it in game. And we have a beautiful radar on the bottom right with, o wait! 3 circles and 5 zooms. I haven't determined how to successfully incorporate it into mining yet, but let's think about it and try to do so! Good luck!

 

[R4tt3xx]

So your telling me that every time I drop a probe in the 5.88711e+21 claims their are more then 100+ ath in their I missed great!

The math is interesting. I started by looking at the website numberspiral.com.. Ye its a bit cliché but I took the formulae on that site, created the array in Excel and started to tweak a few numbers..

They way I got there was as follows. The game has 2 axis x and y, add a 3rd its z, the question is how many can I add before my brain hurts.. I saw it like this, I am in the middle of a sphere with lines coming out from the middle to a set point. What's the formula for the surface area of a sphere.. 4*pi()*radius^2.. Add that to the root formula, we get 54^12.56637061. Simple..

 

[allarom]

This has to be the most interesting thread I've read here in years. Soon we have answers to all of our questions regarding mining and they will release mining 2.0 to wipe out our knowledge

 

[R4tt3xx]

This has to be the most interesting thread I've read here in years. Soon we have answers to all of our questions regarding mining and they will release mining 2.0 to wipe out our knowledge

Perhaps..

But if the system is constructed properly, there will be no need for that ... I also know that it is skill based, both with regards to the avatar and the avatar's controller... The system also does not like repetition, you cant do the same action and expect the same result..