More crits is less loot? loot 2.0 bug?

Evey

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Who says that?
And pretty much any experienced player.
MA takes a fee from your decay. Your losses can come back to you IF you lost more than you should (taking into account efficiency & looter, since 2.0). Tracking your activity (tt in & out) over a significant period of time & money spent, given you have a constant activity level average, will also tell you that, where you are with the returns.... There are people who track rigorously but low amount of looting events, for example Alukat, and expect to have same results as those who have very high activity when this was explained over and over and over again yet he still calls it a bug and throws tantrums over it.

With some brains and a bit of experience one should never play purely against the house because loss is guaranteed 100% in long term. Because of the long term thingy in the previous statement, some try it for fun for a little while in the beginning and then they just tell themselves "I loost too much, it has to give something back" and years later they are tens of thousands into the hole expecting that something back and when it comes, it's usually 10-25% of what they think they should get back. You can never get out well going against the house in this game. It's ok to do it if you want to have fun and don't care about money, but the results are the same. There are some mechanisms in the game to get some of the losses back under various forms, ESIs, rare stuff, but just as you can't outtrain a bad diet, yo can't recover from a dumb play style.

And yes, efficiency works, looter works, dpp works and for stable returns you have to have high activity, no matter how much you think it's unfair or too much, it's the way it is, these are the rules.
And to clear the OP's question, more crits is less cost. Loot being based on cost, so lower cost = lower loot. But that also implies less money spent for more looting events which has an enormous advantage.
Using a trash tool (like for example swine deluxe) to have a huge cost will yield a big loot per mob but having trash dpp and efficiency, your loot long term will also be absolute trash but hey, more loot / mob.
 
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M Rufen Power

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This thread has been fun to read and learnt a lot, thanks to those who posted decently aka Evey.
 

Zorander

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*snip* I have been in the game for 3 sessions and not interacted with anybody so far. Mostly been observing.
I am just telling you my conclusions, and I am pretty sure they are correct.
MU is paid for by other players; that´s mathematical fact. And it´s hope-based; they will not get it back, unless they sell at even higher MU to a third player.
What I pay for ammo and stuff goes directly to MA, not to your loot potential, another fact.
3 sessions in, haven't interacted with anyone, and you're SURE about how things work?

1) You're correct about not winning vs the house, while that used to be theoretically possible, with loot 2.0 changes DPP is no longer a path to 100%+ returns

2) MU is paid by other players, yes... but them not getting it back? What do you base this on? Loot has uses, it's not just an endless circle of people selling each other muscle oil. The MU of the final product can indeed outweigh the MU paid on the materials.

3) There is a whole section of this forum dedicated to posts by MA, tons of information has been shared over the years and forgive me if I don't believe you've read it all yet. There IS a loot pool, MA does take a cut from our activity but most of the money spent is returned to players as loot.


This is a thread containing a nice list of MA statements regarding loot 2.0, a good place to start reading but far from being the only important things MA has had to say.
 

Calculator

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3 sessions in, haven't interacted with anyone, and you're SURE about how things work?

1) You're correct about not winning vs the house, while that used to be theoretically possible, with loot 2.0 changes DPP is no longer a path to 100%+ returns

2) MU is paid by other players, yes... but them not getting it back? What do you base this on? Loot has uses, it's not just an endless circle of people selling each other muscle oil. The MU of the final product can indeed outweigh the MU paid on the materials.

3) There is a whole section of this forum dedicated to posts by MA, tons of information has been shared over the years and forgive me if I don't believe you've read it all yet. There IS a loot pool, MA does take a cut from our activity but most of the money spent is returned to players as loot.


This is a thread containing a nice list of MA statements regarding loot 2.0, a good place to start reading but far from being the only important things MA has had to say.
I grant you 1) and 3); unfortunately 2) is decisive, and that´s where your mistake is.

My argument is based on mathematical certainty. I do not need any experience for that. MU is a Ponzi.

A sells to B with markup. Where does B get his compensation? He has to sell to C with even higher markup. Now where does C get his compensation? Do you see where this is going?

This can´t go on infinitely. At some point there is a D or E who is being scammed tremendously.
 

eyeshark

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I grant you 1) and 3); unfortunately 2) is decisive, and that´s where your mistake is.

My argument is based on mathematical certainty. I do not need any experience for that. MU is a Ponzi.

A sells to B with markup. Where does B get his compensation? He has to sell to C with even higher markup. Now where does C get his compensation? Do you see where this is going?

This can´t go on infinitely. At some point there is a D or E who is being scammed tremendously.
You’d be right if we assume items had no use whatsoever for the end-user who is “stuck holding the bag” in your scenario. But on this point, considering the way the game actually works, I would suggest referencing the knowledge of the more experienced players. People do get their MU back. Now, do some people pay too much MU and not get enough return to cover it? Absolutely. But to say that any MU, even 100.01% on the end user, is just a loss to the last man in the chain is not true. I understand you are new to the game and your instinct tells you otherwise. But it’s simply not true. You seem like a sharp fellow. Given enough time with the game, I trust you will realize this for yourself.
 

Calculator

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You’d be right if we assume items had no use whatsoever for the end-user who is “stuck holding the bag” in your scenario. But on this point, considering the way the game actually works, I would suggest referencing the knowledge of the more experienced players. People do get their MU back. Now, do some people pay too much MU and not get enough return to cover it? Absolutely. But to say that any MU, even 100.01% on the end user, is just a loss to the last man in the chain is not true. I understand you are new to the game and your instinct tells you otherwise. But it’s simply not true. You seem like a sharp fellow. Given enough time with the game, I trust you will realize this for yourself.
*FROM WHOM*, exactly, will the end user get his money back?

It can´t be MA; we have established they never pay out 100% or more. (A lot more would be needed with all the accumulated MU.)

So it must be another player. But then our end user was not the end user.

There is simply no other possibility where the MU can come from.

EU is basically two games in one:

1. A pointless hunting/mining/crafting game where you always lose against MA in the long run.
2. A trading game between the players which is a Ponzi.
 

Deemer

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*FROM WHOM*, exactly, will the end user get his money back?

It can´t be MA; we have established they never pay out 100% or more. (A lot more would be needed with all the accumulated MU.)

So it must be another player. But then our end user was not the end user.

There is simply no other possibility where the MU can come from.

EU is basically two games in one:

1. A pointless hunting/mining/crafting game where you always lose against MA in the long run.
2. A trading game between the players which is a Ponzi.

1. Are you convincing us that MA is not a charity and is a private organization that works to make money or want a private organization to be a charity that makes a living from donations? Hey man, The topic is about critical hits.

*And dot forget for the players here who take part of these money.
 

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EU is basically two games in one:

1. A pointless hunting/mining/crafting game where you always lose against MA in the long run.
2. A trading game between the players which is a Ponzi.
There are quite a few people that see things this way and ALL of them have failed at the game miserably and only because they used the gamble side of the game and couldn't see past that. They wanted an easy win and figured out way too late that gambling is bad for your pocket. Most of them join the other forum and sing together the doom song of the game, betting next year will be over when the game continues to gain players and content.
That was the easy part to figure out. The hard part for me to figure is why the fuck can't these people move on with their lives if they don't like this ponzi/never-win-against-the-house game?? Why do they make more and more accounts to try and convince pleople that do like this game and want to stick around that the game is actually something else than each of the actual players perceive? Ofc you can see scam and gamble everywhere you look, just as you can see chemtrails and flatline everywhere you look...
 

eyeshark

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*FROM WHOM*, exactly, will the end user get his money back?

It can´t be MA; we have established they never pay out 100% or more. (A lot more would be needed with all the accumulated MU.)

So it must be another player. But then our end user was not the end user.

There is simply no other possibility where the MU can come from.

EU is basically two games in one:

1. A pointless hunting/mining/crafting game where you always lose against MA in the long run.
2. A trading game between the players which is a Ponzi.
I can give one basic example. ArMatrix weapons. When purchased at the right markup (my calculations for specific weapons I use, the MU can be as high as 135%), and paired with an UL amp, your DPP (I.E. Cost to Kill) is on par or better than the comparable UL counterparts. They also have significantly better efficiency. Again this is just one example of a certain weapon class at a certain level. But I do not doubt this happens across all weapon classes and possibly with other L items such as mining finders. In this case, MA doesn’t “pay back” the MU. But the L item they added to the game is so desirable that they are as good or better than similar UL items (up to a certain MU of course). In this way, the end user killing with the weapon in this example, is indeed getting a return on paying a smart MU on an end-user item.
 

Calculator

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There are quite a few people that see things this way and ALL of them have failed at the game miserably and only because they used the gamble side of the game and couldn't see past that. They wanted an easy win and figured out way too late that gambling is bad for your pocket. Most of them join the other forum and sing together the doom song of the game, betting next year will be over when the game continues to gain players and content.
That was the easy part to figure out. The hard part for me to figure is why the fuck can't these people move on with their lives if they don't like this ponzi/never-win-against-the-house game?? Why do they make more and more accounts to try and convince pleople that do like this game and want to stick around that the game is actually something else than each of the actual players perceive? Ofc you can see scam and gamble everywhere you look, just as you can see chemtrails and flatline everywhere you look...
Or it´s because they have figured it out and simply don´t like Ponzis...
 

Calculator

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I can give one basic example. ArMatrix weapons. When purchased at the right markup (my calculations for specific weapons I use, the MU can be as high as 135%), and paired with an UL amp, your DPP (I.E. Cost to Kill) is on par or better than the comparable UL counterparts. They also have significantly better efficiency. Again this is just one example of a certain weapon class at a certain level. But I do not doubt this happens across all weapon classes and possibly with other L items such as mining finders. In this case, MA doesn’t “pay back” the MU. But the L item they added to the game is so desirable that they are as good or better than similar UL items (up to a certain MU of course). In this way, the end user killing with the weapon in this example, is indeed getting a return on paying a smart MU on an end-user item.
Ok, this is a perfectly good example and I believe all your facts. :)

So let´s do some analysis: You have this specific weapon X which at MU 135 can compete with some stuff that would have the same cost at MU 100. So the buyer is not at a disadvantage if he pays your MU.

So you have made a profit without actually exploiting your buyer. I am going to admit you have convinced me this may be possible in some cases. (y)

But what is the buyer go to DO with his gun? I assume he is not going to resell it; otherwise we would be back in the infinite MU loop.

He is going to hunt, right? Yet we have established that hunting, no matter how good your weapon is, will always have below 100% return! So he will still ultimately lose money. He would still be better off not playing at all. (And therefore not buying your gun; see what I mean?)
 

Deemer

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Ok, this is a perfectly good example and I believe all your facts. :)

So let´s do some analysis: You have this specific weapon X which at MU 135 can compete with some stuff that would have the same cost at MU 100. So the buyer is not at a disadvantage if he pays your MU.

So you have made a profit without actually exploiting your buyer. I am going to admit you have convinced me this may be possible in some cases. (y)

But what is the buyer go to DO with his gun? I assume he is not going to resell it; otherwise we would be back in the infinite MU loop.

He is going to hunt, right? Yet we have established that hunting, no matter how good your weapon is, will always have below 100% return! So he will still ultimately lose money. He would still be better off not playing at all. (And therefore not buying your gun; see what I mean?)

You looks like this guy..

twitch.tv/wsung0

From few days ago he is in the wrong place, and maybe wondering where is this daily mission.
 
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eyeshark

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Ok, this is a perfectly good example and I believe all your facts. :)

So let´s do some analysis: You have this specific weapon X which at MU 135 can compete with some stuff that would have the same cost at MU 100. So the buyer is not at a disadvantage if he pays your MU.

So you have made a profit without actually exploiting your buyer. I am going to admit you have convinced me this may be possible in some cases. (y)

But what is the buyer go to DO with his gun? I assume he is not going to resell it; otherwise we would be back in the infinite MU loop.

He is going to hunt, right? Yet we have established that hunting, no matter how good your weapon is, will always have below 100% return! So he will still ultimately lose money. He would still be better off not playing at all. (And therefore not buying your gun; see what I mean?)
I get your point indeed. I’m going to hunt with it. But I’m getting a better weapon paying MU than paying no MU. This brings us to Evey’s point sort of: “Aren’t we here to play?” And if you play with purpose (e.g. target markup when hunting), you can come out ahead selling loot for MU to other players, who then might trade it again, or craft it into something else useful such as my weapon example. So the ones guaranteed to “lose” have unrealistic expectations and make bad decisions due to lack of knowledge (and lack of desire to understand, which you clearly do not lack).

Edit: how about paying 1500 ped a month to play any other subscription-based game and losing 100% of that instantly :D
 

Zorander

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...

He is going to hunt, right? Yet we have established that hunting, no matter how good your weapon is, will always have below 100% return! So he will still ultimately lose money. He would still be better off not playing at all. (And therefore not buying your gun; see what I mean?)
Yup, he is going to hunt, and if they do their homework they will hunt for drops with MU on them. Then sell that loot to crafters... it's not a ponzi scheme, it's a flow of money in an economy, hunters and miners supply crafters who supply hunters and miners. I will grant that it is a poorly planned economy with many un-used or under-used resources but by your logic almost every economy on earth is a ponzi scheme. Just because it's not perfect doesn't make it a scam.
 

Crabby

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And pretty much any experienced player.
MA takes a fee from your decay. Your losses can come back to you IF you lost more than you should (taking into account efficiency & looter, since 2.0). Tracking your activity (tt in & out) over a significant period of time & money spent, given you have a constant activity level average, will also tell you that, where you are with the returns.... There are people who track rigorously but low amount of looting events, for example Alukat, and expect to have same results as those who have very high activity when this was explained over and over and over again yet he still calls it a bug and throws tantrums over it.

With some brains and a bit of experience one should never play purely against the house because loss is guaranteed 100% in long term. Because of the long term thingy in the previous statement, some try it for fun for a little while in the beginning and then they just tell themselves "I loost too much, it has to give something back" and years later they are tens of thousands into the hole expecting that something back and when it comes, it's usually 10-25% of what they think they should get back. You can never get out well going against the house in this game. It's ok to do it if you want to have fun and don't care about money, but the results are the same. There are some mechanisms in the game to get some of the losses back under various forms, ESIs, rare stuff, but just as you can't outtrain a bad diet, yo can't recover from a dumb play style.

And yes, efficiency works, looter works, dpp works and for stable returns you have to have high activity, no matter how much you think it's unfair or too much, it's the way it is, these are the rules.
And to clear the OP's question, more crits is less cost. Loot being based on cost, so lower cost = lower loot. But that also implies less money spent for more looting events which has an enormous advantage.
Using a trash tool (like for example swine deluxe) to have a huge cost will yield a big loot per mob but having trash dpp and efficiency, your loot long term will also be absolute trash but hey, more loot / mob.
This is the real deal. This is information that a lot of people need, but don't want to hear. Such people are those that complain and cry 'scam'. Or worse... delude themselves and others that they are coming out on top against MA alone.
 

Tom Archy Blad

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But what is the buyer go to DO with his gun? I assume he is not going to resell it; otherwise we would be back in the infinite MU loop.

He is going to hunt, right? Yet we have established that hunting, no matter how good your weapon is, will always have below 100% return! So he will still ultimately lose money. He would still be better off not playing at all. (And therefore not buying your gun; see what I mean?)
I'll not try to explain with words as my english level don't allow me to argue so here is an exemple of how it work (number are fictive) :

HUNTER A :
Sell 50ped TT of component to CRAFTER A at 110% MU, he win 5ped of markup.

CRAFTER A :
Build a rifle (worth 100ped TT) with these 110% MU (cost = 105ped) and sell rifle at 120% to get profit (=15ped, you're right)

HUNTER B :
Buy the rifle at 120% (=120ped) and use it with 2 000ped of ammo
At this point he paid a gun 100ped + 20ped of markup and 2 000ped of ammo
As an "efficient" hunter he get 95% TT returned in loot wich is 2100 x 0.95 = 1 995ped, 105ped TT and 20 ped of markup for rifle.
But as he choose well his mob, he get some ressources with good markup, lets say 50ped TT of something worth 400%. It means 150ped of markup.

Hunter A : Get 5ped profit
Crafter A : Get 15ped profit
Hunter B : Get 25ped profit

To stay in OP post and conclude :
EFF and looter level give more TT return
DPP (including critical hit) allow a better mix in loot, wich result in higher average markup
More you pay markup to get loot, more your loot should provide overall markup
Choose your mob well.
 
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Killahbee

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Actively playing will cost you peds. It's either investing in your avatar long-term (UL high eff) or paying markup on equipment (perseus, armatrix). You can make peds with markup.
Of course investing big you have a chance your items drop in value but it saves a lot of ped if you play alot.

Regarding the crits.. same thing applies, the more you play the bigger the impact will be.
 

atomicstorm

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you're being rewarded with better loot composition...

instead of 33% shrapnell/66% MU loot you may get 1% shrapnell/99% MU loot....
Also you get more loot events for the ped spend, which increases your chance for good tt-return...
I want to point out that for a large majority of mobs, shrapnel has higher mu (101) than most alternative loots. So raising dpp is not always the best.

It is a bit worse than what John Capital pointed out. You can often take 2 ped mobs and kill them in 60 pec. Sure, you are farming for markup but the the more markup for less spent adage is not always accurate (in fact rarely so except for events) and dpp has no bearing on returns as others have suggested above.
 

forgo

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People also seem to forget the critical component of high DPP. Skills gained for the time spent is much higher as well. So high DPP = better loot and better skills gained for the time spent. If you sell unlimited empty ESI's or forget about skills you are a total noob, if you want to attain significant real wealth playing this game, remember your skills, in my case I sell 5k a month at least in skills, it adds up. Also, the tax on caly "non-taxed" is around 6% if you consider the CLD income statistics. There is always a tax no mattter where you are....unless you own your own tax.
 
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Shard-Angel

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Well, let's do some fake test math to see a theoretical higher DPP via crits
Caveat: These are fake numbers just to show basic math concept. Don't get caught up in the specifics.

-----------------------------------
Start ped = 100
mob hp = 100
cost/shot = 1 ped
dmg = 34
shots needed = 3
Cost/mob = 3 ped
avg loot = 3 x 0.9 = 2.70

after 30 kills
cost = 3 x 30 = 90 ped
ped left = 10
loot = 90 x 0.9 = 81
81 loot + 10 ped left = 91
-----------------------------------
Now imagine all shots are crits
Start ped = 100
mob hp = 100
cost/shot = 1 ped
dmg = 34 x 1.5 = 51
shots needed = 2
Cost/mob = 2 ped
avg loot = 2 x 0.9 =1.80 (less loot per mob than above)

after 30 kills
cost = 2 x 30 = 60 ped
ped left = 40
loot = 60 x 0.9 =54
54 loot + 40 ped left = 94
-----------------------------------

More overall ped and can still kill more



However, this line causes me to pause

It appears to say that in your runs, this is happening

1 mob
2 shots to kill
2 ped cost
loot = 2 x 0.9 = 1.8

1 mob
2 shots to kill
both shots crit
2 ped cost
loot = 2 x 0.6 = 1.2

Does that concept match the general idea of what you are saying?

Out of curiosity, how would this example play out with a Swine Deluxe? How is efficiency computed in this instance?
 

JohnCapital

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Out of curiosity, how would this example play out with a Swine Deluxe? How is efficiency computed in this instance?
Irrelevant to this discussion I would think. The issue was specifically about crits, not overall efficiency, so gun type shouldn't matter.
Yes, crits affect efficiency, but you are asking a detail this topic isn't really focusing on, I don't think.
 

atomicstorm

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Out of curiosity, how would this example play out with a Swine Deluxe? How is efficiency computed in this instance?
I will have a thread upcoming that will explain this and others in full detail. I did several hour tests this month with multiple efficiency weapons. It will prevent some people throwing out bad data and assertions.
 

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I will have a thread upcoming that will explain this and others in full detail. I did several hour tests this month with multiple efficiency weapons. It will prevent some people throwing out bad data and assertions.
Fantastic! :)

Can't wait! (y)
 
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