MU vs efficiency (efficiency overrated?)

Deemer

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I am using same gun vs ALL mobs. The results are fine.

@Orion There are some statements by devs made since loot 2.0, Ferial put together a thread, check it out. There are tests validating both looter and eff. One of the threads was made by Darkaruki. Individual tests confirm too.

Prove it. Go hunt few days Caudatergus puny and share your results.
 

Deemer

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How about you prove your statement that you need a different weapon for various mobs?

20% overkill goes to 92% tt return, which proves that there is a difference.

It would be really interesting to see the result of a top weapon... now is your turn :ROFLMAO:
 

Jhereg

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20% overkill goes to 92% tt return, which proves that there is a difference.

It would be really interesting to see the result of a top weapon... now is your turn :ROFLMAO:
I'll bite. How did you run your test?
 

mastermesh

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bah, give em a year and they'll make both worthless and add some other new attribute for us to chace after.... uber fun stat, then a couple years after that uber goober fun stat, and a few years after that uber goober goochy goo goodness for you to waste time thinking about and blowing peds on.
 

Orion

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Thank you Evey, i am well aware of the thread and its content.
Sadly the thread does not handle the details of the Looter Profession with a single word.

I ask, because ppl say the Looter Profession (explicitly not Efficiency! explicitly not DPP!) would add another 7% TT value to your loot:

Looter Profession accounts for 0-7% of TT loot value.
That would mean that base returns are really 90%; Looter gives 7%, giving 1% efficiency, giving 98%.
Accepting 90 + 7% +7% as average return is wrong in my view point, because in this case we always will be on stage where we are after good multiply.
To this day, no one can understand how we can have both efficiency and looter, giving us 7% each.
So i want to understand where this idea originates from.
Official MA statements?
Empiric player tests?
Something completely different i totally missed?

Can the quoted people (or who else knows) link me some sources, please?
 
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mastermesh

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Thank you Evey, i am well aware of the thread and its content.
Sadly the thread does not handle the details of the Looter Profession with a single word.

I ask, because ppl say the Looter Profession (explicitly not Efficiency! explicitly not DPP!) would add another 7% TT value to your loot:






So i want to understand where this idea originates from.
Official MA statements?
Empiric player tests?
Something completely different i totally missed?

Can the quoted people (or who else knows) link me some sources, please?
 

Deemer

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Empiric player tests?

Can the quoted people (or who else knows) link me some sources, please?
Regarding my answer, look at the question. To avoid such extensions (like this), I used the maximum data that is taken for granted.

The only linear basis in the game is 2. One is for weapons, through which with lower TT skills you can acquire a higher level of weapon. And the other is from the EFF, which explicitly states that it has no effect on the player's skills.

My logic is that the influence of Looter profession is equivalent to not his profession (TT skill 0-100). I don't have personal tests because I didn't have to. If you have doubts about the reliability of the test, I am ОК to get involved in this endeavor.

 
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MikeH

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Thank you Evey, i am well aware of the thread and its content.
Sadly the thread does not handle the details of the Looter Profession with a single word.

I ask, because ppl say the Looter Profession (explicitly not Efficiency! explicitly not DPP!) would add another 7% TT value to your loot:






So i want to understand where this idea originates from.
Official MA statements?
Empiric player tests?
Something completely different i totally missed?

Can the quoted people (or who else knows) link me some sources, please?
MA mentioned affìcieny effect 7% of return.
Also said looter affect tt return but in no statement its mentioned the exact %.

I can say looter affect return yes by seeing my 9 months sheet i can see improvement with same setup just looter is increasing :).

And for testing how much percent it affect its not possible cause loot is Dynamic (tm).
 

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20% overkill goes to 92% tt return, which proves that there is a difference.
I'll ask again because it' very important, how did you test this?
As of loot 2.0, overkill has no influence over tt return.
A few days of solo hunt would not reveal you significant data to prove such a thing, given there are some loot cycles that are quite large and can't be predicted so you don't know which of the loots/days/weeks/months are the ones indicating where you gear and looter should place you. For example, on my previous week, I am at 94% loosing 12k ped in a few days over 200k spent - no, I don't believe I should be there with the returns, I'm 5% below, but it would qualify as sample for your "few days" test.



There are some interesting tests done in this thread you guys should check out.


@Orion check the link above.
I've done similar tests with Mathilda finding out an exact .7% difference per 10 looter levels, using same weapon.
 

M Rufen Power

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@Orion
I've done similar tests with Mathilda finding out an exact .7% difference per 10 looter levels, using same weapon.
This is what I am saying, if tests confirm a difference of 0.07% per level or 0.7% per 10 levels and this is facts and does not change, where does efficiency play into that, another 7%, riddle me that? Yet no one can say they are beyond 99% lol. I am not saying efficiency isn’t important but it’s not a priority comparing it to looter or dpp imo. DPS is required on the basis that your mob regens extensively or does high damage. If neither of those are true dps isnt a priority, however, it helps with turnover speed, but imo can also increase the loot swings. If looter is solid, then my thought of them each playing counter balance is thrown out the blatant window.
 

Orion

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Thank you for the responses so far.

So if Efficiency adds up to +7% and Looter Profession adds (at level 100) another +7% (=14%) to basic loot TT return percentage, then this questions the basic loot TT return percentage value of (estimated) 90%, which i read about before, since MA very likely will not re-create(!) a loot system with a basic return rate being higher than 100% ( = guaranteed profit).
Because this was the basic problem, which forced MA to create Loot 2.0.
And would this mean at Level 200: +7% +14% = +21%?


So the question is, how much is the basic loot TT return percentage likely?
Maybe 70%? 75%? 80%? 85%?
Are there any educated guesses, if not empiric tests out there, which narrow down this basic loot TT return percentage value?



Another, indirectly related question crawls up my mind then:
IF newcomers start with a basic loot TT return percentage value being at least 14% further away from a desired 100% return rate, how does MA compensate newbies to keep them active, because such a bad average return rate would scare me off, way before i start to deposit a second time.
Does MA maybe reduce the basic loot TT return percentage, as your Looter Profession goes up?
 
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Deemer

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I'll ask again because it' very important, how did you test this?
You asking for test, this one I did soon.
My daily hunting run on Puny is 400-700 ped. I've usually been in the field for a very long time, if you mean this.

From September until now, I've mostly hunted Puny for skills because I'm not happy with the current market economy. The game forces me to invest more if I want to hunt for a big mob, but at the same time AH takes most of my income... I collect a large stack of items that subsequently make it TT because it's hard to sell by normally. Market trading in the EU gives a much bigger advantage to those who take advantage of the game with a +1or more accounts. That's why my choice is a large amount of Puny for more skills and less losses.

Late September- mid January... 33600 --> 31208.6( + uni in Inventory, im not ingame to check it exactly.. ~500 ped)

In a normal play, there are weapon ranges (DMGs) through which I understand if this mob is good for hunting today. If I use a weapon that is bigger or smaller, I can't find my way around, and my game takes on a gambling look. Thats work for me of 50 to 1k HP mobs.

Overkill can be paid in loot2(not sure), but overpay is not paid(sure). So I'm sure that if you use even top gun on Puny for a week, your result wont be 94%, but 73%.

Optimal loot on Caudashiters, excuse me.
 

M Rufen Power

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Thank you for the responses so far.

So if Efficiency adds up to +7% and Looter Profession adds (at level 100) another +7% (=14%) to basic loot TT return percentage, then this questions the basic loot TT return percentage value of (estimated) 90%, which i read about before, since MA very likely will not re-create(!) a loot system with a basic return rate being higher than 100% ( = guaranteed profit).
Because this was the basic problem, which forced MA to create Loot 2.0.
And would this mean at Level 200: +7% +14% = +21%?


So the question is, how much is the basic loot TT return percentage likely?
Maybe 70%? 75%? 80%? 85%?
Are there any educated guesses, if not empiric tests out there, which narrow down this basic loot TT return percentage value?



Another, indirectly related question crawls up my mind then:
IF newcomers start with a basic loot TT return percentage value being at least 14% further away from a desired 100% return rate, how does MA compensate newbies to keep them active, because such a bad average return rate would scare me off, way before i start to deposit a second time.
Does MA maybe reduce the basic loot TT return percentage, as your Looter Profession goes up?
Answer Here
 

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You asking for test, this one I did soon.
My daily hunting run on Puny is 400-700 ped. I've usually been in the field for a very long time, if you mean this.

From September until now, I've mostly hunted Puny for skills because I'm not happy with the current market economy. The game forces me to invest more if I want to hunt for a big mob, but at the same time AH takes most of my income... I collect a large stack of items that subsequently make it TT because it's hard to sell by normally. Market trading in the EU gives a much bigger advantage to those who take advantage of the game with a +1or more accounts. That's why my choice is a large amount of Puny for more skills and less losses.

Late September- mid January... 33600 --> 31208.6( + uni in Inventory, im not ingame to check it exactly.. ~500 ped)

In a normal play, there are weapon ranges (DMGs) through which I understand if this mob is good for hunting today. If I use a weapon that is bigger or smaller, I can't find my way around, and my game takes on a gambling look. Thats work for me of 50 to 1k HP mobs.

Overkill can be paid in loot2(not sure), but overpay is not paid(sure). So I'm sure that if you use even top gun on Puny for a week, your result wont be 94%, but 73%.

Optimal loot on Caudashiters, excuse me.
Sorry, but as long as you do not even know how many skills you get at TT value, you can not be really considered a reliable source.

Even a reference of how much you cycle....cycle what ? ammo ? ammo including decay ?
Does the cycle include the MU for the guns ?
What ammo was cycled ? Was shrapnel converted ?


back on topic....
I started looking into a bit higher efficiences about 3 months ago, but can really not say that it did anything to loot composition or return rate. My only hunting weapon has been the LR-80 for the past 4-5 months and I start with 70.2 efficiency.
My looter level is 55ish right now, but I can see also now difference in return rate or composition of loot since the start of loot2.0 .
I have looted two esis since loot 2.0, both during the last mayhem and both within a day, so statistcally this is just a fluke.

And for reference, I cycle around 1k PED TT bought ammo per hour, with a 8%reload buff.
I do that roughly 2-4 hours per day except on weekends or during Merry Mayhem.


...and I stopped tracking my hunts in detail years ago :D Hunting s for me to wind down from work and not a second job, it has become more expensive with higher levels.
I am more about skilling up somehow naturally right now (because I still believe the the Codex skills are not for free and I could see massive impacts on Calypso on my PED Card), and I would definately no choose punys, because I do not think the kill bonus still exists (at least not in the way it was before, where you would get some skills on the kill with every type of weapon used and would really not make a difference at my level anyway)
 

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I wonder where the base tt return of 90% comes from. Is this 90% from a MA statement? Is there reliable RECENT research that confirms this? (as in after the looter profession was introduced).
This research would need to include: 1 account, looter lvl 0, efficiency 0 weapon, substantial amount of peds cycled.
As well as a higher end account to compare. On top of that possible uber hofs (2k+) would need to be excluded from the return calculations.

If not, it could easily be 86% (base tt return) +7% efficiency + 7% looter profession or something alike.
What if there are other factors playing a role, such as using a maxed weapon, the people that hunt in your area, recent lootpool drains, low or high ingame activity due to events, or even friends in high places?
 

Deemer

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In the previous topic, I asked you to give data from the acquired skills with the same value as me, we to compare them.
Although the tests took me two weeks, do you find it unreliable?

You say you shoot 1k an hour, but you don't want to take 5 minutes to compare a two-week test with my test?

There are too many people like you in this forum who build their personal authority on the current interest of the majority. I piss on such people, your conclusions are like fart in the wind!

..
I do that roughly 2-4 hours per day except on weekends or during Merry Mayhem.

...and I stopped tracking my hunts in detail years ago :D
I am more about skilling up somehow naturally right now (because I still believe the the Codex skills are not for free and I could see massive impacts on Calypso on my PED Card), and I would definately no choose punys, because I do not think the kill bonus still exists (at least not in the way it was before, where you would get some skills on the kill with every type of weapon used and would really not make a difference at my level anyway)
Very reliable!



Efficiency has its bonus, but the bonus is a loss eaten up in advance by the purchase of L-type weapons.
The investment in high levels of UL-type efficiency is unreliable in the current trade environment due to their high prices.



Just to remind in case if someone NEW PLAYER got confused that ArMartix are profitable with their "high eff".

Most of the examples in each topic are from calculations at a possible high level, which is achieved after more than 5 years of play.

The people who give advice judge from their point of view, and it is a high level, which in no way applies to the majority.

Don't trust people with years of experience, which are level is like 3 month players. Looks like they are here to sell something than to looking answers as us.
 

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In the previous topic, I asked you to give data from the acquired skills with the same value as me, we to compare them.
Although the tests took me two weeks, do you find it unreliable?

You say you shoot 1k an hour, but you don't want to take 5 minutes to compare a two-week test with my test?

There are too many people like you in this forum who build their personal authority on the current interest of the majority. I piss on such people, your conclusions are like fart in the wind!



Very reliable!



Efficiency has its bonus, but the bonus is a loss eaten up in advance by the purchase of L-type weapons.
The investment in high levels of UL-type efficiency is unreliable in the current trade environment due to their high prices.




Don't trust people with years of experience, which are level is like 3 month players. Looks like they are here to sell something than to looking answers as us.
Sorry, but our "TT Skills" where simply the skills you gained....and I told to educate your self because those skills have absolutely nothing to do with the TT value of the skill.
Simply nothing to compare, when you do not stick to the general formulas. You get 3 apples, I get 3 bananas. What is your conversion rate and why should I even try to figure it out when I know that it will not work ?
I mean, who the hell do you think you are ?
Only you are right with your opinion ?
The thousands that have done tests here are all wrong ? Only you are right?

Talk to your therapist.
 

Deemer

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Sorry, but our "TT Skills" where simply the skills you gained....and I told to educate your self because those skills have absolutely nothing to do with the TT value of the skill.
Simply nothing to compare, when you do not stick to the general formulas. You get 3 apples, I get 3 bananas. What is your conversion rate and why should I even try to figure it out when I know that it will not work ?
I mean, who the hell do you think you are ?
Only you are right with your opinion ?
The thousands that have done tests here are all wrong ? Only you are right?

Talk to your therapist.
What are the general formulas?
This topic is for MU vs Eff, what is the reason to turn the base?

Computers work with a function that looks like formula, but is not.
The difference between mathematical formulas and computer functions is that a computer function can use different formulas in different conditional construction under different conditions.

This makes the calculations in this game so different.
We are not talking here about psychic therapy, but about revealing these variables which you simply call a formula that is always the same for you.

When giving education advice, start with them in personal.
After you giving such answer about formulas, share this formulas, otherwise again your answer is like fart in the wind.


PPRPS.
Ahh, yes... I am myself.
But you seem to be the public opinion.
 
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M Rufen Power

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I still believe the the Codex skills are not for free and I could see massive impacts on Calypso on my PED Card.
This is the biggest conspiracy theory I have seen lol. Skills TT are not taken from your TT returns, this would be contrary to all the dev posts regarding actual returns and my own results. If you think this to be fact it’s because you ain’t tracking your hunting, you believe this falacy lol. What utter nonsense, in what reality did a reward become a penalty?

I wonder where the base tt return of 90% comes from. Is this 90% from a MA statement? Is there reliable RECENT research that confirms this? (as in after the looter profession was introduced).
This research would need to include: 1 account, looter lvl 0, efficiency 0 weapon.
90% returns comes from previous iterations of the game. When I first started 90% was pretty consistent throughout the hunting prof, when most loot had around 110-112% like muscle oil. Also, a newbie that breaks all the rules in hunting would experience such low returns vs the norm which is now about 95%.
 

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90% returns comes from previous iterations of the game. When I first started 90% was pretty consistent throughout the hunting prof, when most loot had around 110-112% like muscle oil. Also, a newbie that breaks all the rules in hunting would experience such low returns vs the norm which is now about 95%.
I think it is a safe bet to presume that you started before the current loot system. So in that case the 90% base could have changed.

From a mathematical perspective, it makes absolutely no sense that a newbie gets 95% return, with a near zero lvl looter (-7%tt), and a weapon with an efficiency below 60% (-2.8%tt), IF THE EFFECTS OF BOTH ARE LINEAR. (considering that the maximum avg tt return is 100%, and that both eff. and looter lvl contribute 7% to tt return.)
It would only make sense if the effects are hyperbolic (x =lootbonus, y= looterlvl, or efficiency)
 

M Rufen Power

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I think it is a safe bet to presume that you started before the current loot system. So in that case the 90% base could have changed.
I started in 2009, but its not 90% returns now, but like I said it’s more closer to 95%. It’s higher because no loot was removed and a bonus loot added. Of course this had a negative effect on markup dropping due to oversupply but then again MA allowed for us to gain a higher TT percentage with efficiency and looter professions. As far as I understand them, they are both linear.
 
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Imo it seems these 7% Efficiency effect loot with is seen in a bit wrong way. Those 7% are not added to loot value
but a part of the maxed out total theoretical lootvalue, so if someone doesn't have 100% of those 7% but instead have 50% it will lower
the maxed out total theoretical loot with 3,5%.
Probably same with looter prof stands, we don't increase our outcome but rather decrease our loss by skilling up.
 

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As i see it, loot is a VUCA-problem, its Volatile, Uncertain, Complex, Ambiguent.
Players tend to see SFTL-problems, because they are looking for SFTL-solutions that are Static, Formal, Trivial and Logic.
Those 2 things do not go well together.
Since the beginning we are struggeling to figure out everything about loot, prayed to Lootious and hoped for the best, became statistics-masterminds or mindbuggling storyellers of some sort, or some kind of lucky player, this way or another and/or all together at once.

Best thing that worked for me was praying to Lootious, i guess:scratch:, because as soon as you make a system out of your experiences, you kind of like create enough counterweight to shift the whole world in a whole new direction... (entropy) all professions played out can do this within their perimeters.

---

The introduction of Looter professions... didn´t help to see through... Lets pretend, looting a mob creates a certain ammount of decay on the loot you get out of it, like the difference between a kid butchering a Dinosaur and a seasoned Greathunter doing so. I understand looter professions as reducing the decay of looting. I really wonder if autoloot may play a role in this. But i dont believe it plays a big role. I don´t believe much in absolute numbers either, like 7% of coulda-shoulda never happened, but yet counting against the expectation of 100% return, or level 100, or level 400? I dont think so...
 
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M Rufen Power

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To add this footnote to the topic discussions.

When loot 2.0 got introduced, most players naturally started with an efficiency on their weapon that was higher than their looter profession, which has led many to believe that efficiency is the end all be all and has to be valued above most other things IMO however as someone who worked his looter profs past his weapon efficiency and has cycled many millions of peds with such setup I think that efficiency and looter profession are 2 pathways that net the same advantages and are roughly aligned.

So once you exceed a weapon efficiency with your looter professions, your gain from the weapon's efficiency will be minuscule at best; the true gain then comes from its DPP, which of course, for the weapon in question is great as well. Still, there are many other options out there with similar or higher DPP at lower valuations.

92.5% efficiency, however, is higher than most players looter prof levels and will likely remain higher than most active hunters looter profs for at least 1-2 more years from then on, the net benefit will be less though, for robot looter, it will likely remain for 3-4 years till people build up their professions. After that, the value will mostly come from the newer players who still have to skill up and less from the established hunters who will look for more DPS/DPP.
Taken from this thread > Efficiency Nerfed
 
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