Naming/shaming rules question

Joined
Oct 3, 2017
Posts
626
Location
Florida
Society
The Frozen Flame
Avatar Name
Xanato Xan Kaso
I know that we are not supposed to name name point pictures etc to reduce flame wars and make this a positive environment or whatever. But if you make a deal with someone and you ask them for permission to post it on the forums if they break the deal (to hold them accountable) and they agree to allow you to do so (and you have the screenshot to prove it). Can you then be allowed to point fingers name names and show unedited screenshots etc of the deal that was broken?
 

Aloisius

Stalker
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Posts
1,510
Location
Fort Fury
Society
Natural Born Killers
Avatar Name
Jo Aloisius Smith
what would bethe point then?
 
Joined
Oct 3, 2017
Posts
626
Location
Florida
Society
The Frozen Flame
Avatar Name
Xanato Xan Kaso
what would bethe point then?
If someone steals from me I can not make a post say this person stole from me and name their name etc. I wouldn't be able to warn people not to deal with a specific person because we are not allowed to name names. But if I have their permission to name them and point at them and say they broke our deal, would I be breaking the rules then? The point being so people know NOT to deal with a person. I want to follow the rules so I thought with the persons permission and proof that they gave it, I could notify people without getting in trouble for doing so..
 
Joined
May 20, 2007
Posts
9,469
Location
England
Society
Guess Who
Avatar Name
George Ace Skywalker
I know that we are not supposed to name name point pictures etc to reduce flame wars and make this a positive environment or whatever.
I think the no naming rule was supposed to protect the innocent i.e. someone just naming someone without any evidence and them being innocent.

Having said that you need to check with an admin on here
 
Joined
Oct 3, 2017
Posts
626
Location
Florida
Society
The Frozen Flame
Avatar Name
Xanato Xan Kaso
I think the no naming rule was supposed to protect the innocent i.e. someone just naming someone without any evidence and them being innocent.

Having said that you need to check with an admin on here
I did not know who to contact so that is why I made the post in this forum with this title. It is bound to draw some one official to respond. Or get a lot of responses so I can use the wisdom of the crowd... errr on second thought not going to base my actions on random strangers suggestions... they could be a Loki
 

Ludvig|MindArk

MindArk Official
Staff member
MindArk Official
Moderator
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Posts
15,569
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Formerly "Foeburner Nighthawk Delta"
It would still fall under the rule. Some issues with allowing this:
  • It would require a moderator to start a potentially lengthy investigation to see if the proof is good enough.
  • Evidence is very easy to fake.
  • There is no way for us to know if there is information missing (for example, the players involved in the deal may have changed the conditions in other PMs or via out-of-game/forum communications, meaning partial information makes it seem like a scam while the whole story would not).
  • It would not be very helpful in the long run.
Even if we ignored these issues, the resulting thread would still be locked for violation of Rule 2.3 - Personal Disputes (Personal issues between individuals or societies should NOT be debated in the public forum areas and are not permitted). I would instead suggest that you simply do not engage in situations where you may be scammed, and that you make a support case if you do get scammed.

I wouldn't be able to warn people not to deal with a specific person because we are not allowed to name names. But if I have their permission to name them and point at them and say they broke our deal, would I be breaking the rules then? The point being so people know NOT to deal with a person.
I would suggest reading this thread for more information about this rule and the reasoning behind it: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...r-forum-rule-2-13-scamming-accusation.112617/

One important part (with regards to the portion of your post I quoted);

(vi) There's only so many names people can remember. Once the list grows too long people will forget the names anyway.
(vii) Scammers will regularly get new accounts in any case. Consequently the list will, in majority, consist of a list of old avatars that scammers no longer use.
(viii) Adding a name to the list will alert a scammer he's been found out, thus possibly causing the scammer to get a new account.
(ix) It is better to alert people to scam practices and to show them how to be vigilant, how not to leave themselves vulnerable, rather than to tell them to look out for specific avatars.
 

jetsina

Stalker
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Posts
1,688
That's a VERY good answer! Thought I'd actually say so, rather than just thumbs up!
 

Nik-Elas

Old
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Posts
82
Society
Deagleteam
Avatar Name
Niklas Negolas Hedlund
I guess this is why an implementation of features such as loaning and renting possibility would lower the risk of scams significantly i assume. It would in the end result in less loss of precious peds/items as well as time for players as well as MA not having to dig deep into different types of scams of these types.
Just my thought though.
 
Joined
Oct 3, 2017
Posts
626
Location
Florida
Society
The Frozen Flame
Avatar Name
Xanato Xan Kaso
I guess this is why an implementation of features such as loaning and renting possibility would lower the risk of scams significantly i assume. It would in the end result in less loss of precious peds/items as well as time for players as well as MA not having to dig deep into different types of scams of these types.
Just my thought though.
I asked because I run a rental/loan service and I was hoping that by having the players permission in the rental agreement it would allow me to make such a post. At the very least it would alert those in that players circle of friends. A lot of my clients run in the same circles and share items and such so while I understand the reasoning as to why they have that long black list or whatnot, I was hoping that I would be able to shine a light on those players for however temporary to force them to know that there are consequences and they jeopardize their reputations and relationships. I am following the safest measures possible to do what I do but there is still risk because of this lack of an official loan/rental system in the game.

There is still the threat of MA locking and banning them but I think people care more about their repuations and what others think of them, especially those who have been in the game for a while.

*Please don't mention banks because they cant and don't do what I do. It is two separate things. The banks are just glorified pawnshops and they do provide players a useful albeit expensive service.
 

mastermesh

Mutated
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Posts
15,367
Location
Billy Bar
Society
the Ministry
Avatar Name
Maria Mesh
I asked because I run a rental/loan service and I was hoping that by having the players permission in the rental agreement it would allow me to make such a post. At the very least it would alert those in that players circle of friends. A lot of my clients run in the same circles and share items and such so while I understand the reasoning as to why they have that long black list or whatnot, I was hoping that I would be able to shine a light on those players for however temporary to force them to know that there are consequences and they jeopardize their reputations and relationships. I am following the safest measures possible to do what I do but there is still risk because of this lack of an official loan/rental system in the game.

There is still the threat of MA locking and banning them but I think people care more about their repuations and what others think of them, especially those who have been in the game for a while.

*Please don't mention banks because they cant and don't do what I do. It is two separate things. The banks are just glorified pawnshops and they do provide players a useful albeit expensive service.
considering that Mindark's only statatments about renting are mainly tied directly to banks it's kind of hard to avoid them in these types of conversations...


Clarification about Entropia banking operations
04 June 2007

Since we released news about the virtual banking licenses, several questions regarding loan services and banking affairs within Entropia Universe have been raised. The main concern has been the lending of items for interest. We feel that we need to clarify our policy about this.

Recently MindArk PE AB issued official virtual banking licenses. These licenses comprise a secured bank system for processing loans and securities in the form of items. All transactions made via this official bank system, such as loans, defaults, securities, interest etc., are safe and as such guaranteed by MindArk.

By contrast, loan services offered outside this official bank system cannot be guaranteed by MindArk. If an item is exchanged between avatars, this transaction will be logged as a regular TRADE. And as all trades are final, MindArk will not investigate claims if a loan giving avatar refuses to return items or money.Many people do not fully understand the true value of their virtual items until they are lost. They will then contact MindArk PE AB for assistance and will realize that we cannot help them; this can cause a lot of unnecessary grief and frustration.

We do not wish to discourage entrepreneurship within Entropia Universe, but based on experiences from community feedback and support case history, unfortunately not all entrepreneurs offering loaning services are trustworthy members of the Entropia Universe and therefore we need to be strict in our policies in order to protect the community from scams and cheating.

Therefore, any loan services offered outside the approved bank system will be considered by MindArk as scam attempts and the avatar offering such services risk a permanent lockdown of his/her account.
Since all trades are final according to the above statement, which I assume has been around a hell of a lot longer than most other rental services, any trade is a trade, not a loan, and as such is potentially a scam if either party calls it a rental... so even offereing a 'rental service' could potentially be seen by some as a scam attempt... Remember if you point a finger at someone it usually ends up with several fingers on your own hand pointing back at yourself, etc.

Not saying you are a scammer, just that offereng the service, which Mindark considers as a scam attempt may not be such a great idea, possibly...

Based on the above statement from so many years ago, it seems like the higher risk of ban is on those offereing the rental service rather than on those 'buying' from said trade service.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 3, 2017
Posts
626
Location
Florida
Society
The Frozen Flame
Avatar Name
Xanato Xan Kaso
considering that Mindark's only statatments about renting are mainly tied directly to banks it's kind of hard to avoid them in these types of conversations...




Since all trades are final according to the above statement, which I assume has been around a hell of a lot longer than most other rental services, any trade is a trade, not a loan, and as such is potentially a scam if either party calls it a rental... so even offereing a 'rental service' could potentially be seen by some as a scam attempt... Remember if you point a finger at someone it usually ends up with several fingers on your own hand pointing back at yourself, etc.

Not saying you are a scammer, just that offering the service, which Mindark considers as a scam attempt may not be such a great idea, possibly...

Based on the above statement from so many years ago, it seems like the higher risk of ban is on those offering the rental service rather than on those 'buying' from said trade service.
I understand your point of view and I appreciate the links concerning this topics. I do have a couple of questions, and yes I am really too lazy to go searching through records because I do not know the history of MindArk and Calypso and all over the past 15 years.

Is the company in question " MindArk PE AB " still in existence? Because I believe they have changed names or ownerships over the last 13 years since the post you quoted about banking. So if it is no longer " MindArk PE AB " then that statement regarding banks is not really official if a new company has taken over. The reason I even ask this question is because I think the PE stands for Project Entropia. I don't know what the AB means, but I think there was a transition somewhere from Project Entropia to Entropia Universe (EU).

Also I do not think all the intended features of the bank were ever released. I do not think they got real bank licenses as was their intended goal, and to my knowledge it is not possible for banks to rent or loan items themselves, but rather only PED in exchange for your items with interest accruing and a 30 day window to pay off the interest or buyback the item or such. Which is why I called them glorified pawnshops, I think the banks have great potential but it was never fully developed or realized. (And if I am wrong someone please correct me. I am willing to admit my mistakes and take ownership of them.) Now I could be wrong in that the banks don't have the physical functionality to lend items, the same way you cant get a bigger loan off pawning a tiered item vs a non=tiered item, and I think the bank owning avatars are allowed permission to offer the loans on the tiered version of items in a p2p trade since the system itself does not do so. Again I may be wrong.

This is why I did not want to bring up the banks because it is complicated and they were never fully developed to what they could and should have been.


Secondly there are other people out there that run investment/securities funds. Just going off the first page of forum posts there is Chlee's Entropia Fund, Entropia Invest by Morey/Divinity (they own a bank so I dont know if that changes anything), Da Vinchi & Partners fund, and Pedflow Player fund that is on Entropialoot website. I am sure there is more. Outside Divinity and Morey that own an actually bank I am not sure if the others do so that would make all the other funds illegal yet MA is allowing them to exist presumably because they are not causing major problems. I am sure if we get one major Ponzi scheme fund like what happened in EVE online a few years back where they stole Billions of ISK worth just over $51k USD MA would actively go around putting a stop to these funds, but as it exists right now they are mostly operating without big issues so MA is leaving them alone.



Thirdly, there are dozens of rental services of people lending out their items to generate income off their investment. And there really shouldn't be a rule against it as people spend hard earned cash to acquire these items so they should allowed to be able to do what they want with them. And there are risk to doing this which is why Mindark always says trades are final so you should ask for collateral to cover yourself. The goal of this post was to further incentivize AGAINST breaking the verbal agreements between players by getting their permission to display their names etc so they have that threat to their reputation where currently there is almost none because it is difficult to make it public except through word of mouth. But the MA official responded to that..


And lastly this is a copy of a post from a support case recently. (relatively speaking) wherein I loaned someone an item and did not receive it back. And this was simply a loan to a friend not a rental. So I was not profiting on this.

Ulf Entropia Support said:
Hi Xan,

Thank you for your support case.

We will look into the occurrence and the avatar in question.

As you have a clear agreement that they've borrowed the item she'll have to return it or the value for you to purchase a new one.

Just to clarify, all trades are final and you should always trade for collateral, if it hasn't been clearly stated that it is a loan then there is nothing we can do to return the items, nor in this case is this something we will do however if you've agreed on a loan as you have here then they are obligated to complete the trade which is the agreement if not they've committed a trust scam and will be locked unless they have the intention to resolve it with you.

Kind regards,
Ulf | Entropia Universe Support

So the take away from this is All trades are final, and you should always get collateral. IF it is clearly is stated as a loan then the player is bound to complete their half of the deal because you are making the trade based off trust, therefor failure to meet their obligation is commission of a scam (And it works both ways). Mindark can not return your items to you but they can lock the other players account until they intend on fixing the problem.

This report was made in October 2017, so I think the rules have changed a little since that post you cited from 2007. And again my original goal was to make part of the rental contract to give me permission and allow me to make it public if they failed to uphold their end so that their reputation is at risk for breaking the contract. I can already get their account locked, but I think people fear more that their reputation would be destroyed because it prohibits them from being able to borrow items from people. But I understand the MA representatives points. I was just trying to get some clarification because I would not be blindly saying this person did a bad thing to me, but that they did a bad thing and I had permission to publicize it if they did.
 

mastermesh

Mutated
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Posts
15,367
Location
Billy Bar
Society
the Ministry
Avatar Name
Maria Mesh
I am sure if we get one major Ponzi scheme fund like what happened in EVE online a few years back where they stole Billions of ISK worth just over $51k USD MA would actively go around putting a stop to these funds, but as it exists right now they are mostly operating without big issues so MA is leaving them alone.
I'll leave the Mindark representatives to post answers to your concerns... Maybe Ludvig or one of his cohorts can chime in here.

but yes, there has been many schemes and scams (funds as you call them) in the long history of Entropia... and quite a few public ones have failed miserably... countless others failed in not-so-public eyes... Here's a few links to study the history if you wish...

R&R Fund
Thread Related to R&R Fund

Pirate's Investment Fund
Hardwrath's NBK Fund Payback Post

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...nvert-L-to-PED&p=867769&viewfull=1#post867769
 
Top