Nerf defination and PE Nerf List

Da Celt

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Nerf definition and PE Nerf List

Nearly every VU a hugh rumble goes through the community, as people react to changes, bugs, new features. Along with this many folks state features, game design was Nerfed in some way. So to add some clarity and agreement within the community, this thread is to be used to state all things Nerfy about PE.

Comments on the following:

Definition:Nerf occording to www.answers.com
"In the context of computer games, a nerf is a change to the rules of the game that is generally considered to have a weakening or negative effect upon the affected object(s). "

This is an important concept in game design and game balance. Players may typically call for something to be nerfed that may be legitimately overpowered, but a game designer must be careful to ensure that the strategic depth is increased and not decreased by this. For example, in a hypothetical early version of chess which had half the number of pawns, players might complain that the queen was "too powerful". A more inept game designer might nerf the queen by allowing it to only move like a pawn, but this loses the point of the queen and decreases the strategic depth. A better solution might be to simply increase the number of pawns.

Nerfing is usually not possible on console games once they are released. The games most frequently adjusted for balance are multiplayer online computer games, especially MMORPGs and highly competitive games such as tactical first-person shooters and real-time strategy games. The word 'nerf' is not as commonly seen outside of online role-playing games though. The main exception to this is when a publisher, such as Wizards of the Coast or White Wolf releases a new version of a popular table-top RPG, which significantly changes the way the game is played.

MMORPG developers nerf aspects of the game in order to maintain game balance. Occasionally a new feature (such as an item, class, skill, etc.) may be made too powerful, too cheap, or too easily obtained to the extent that it unbalances the game system itself. This is sometimes due to an unforseen bug or method of using or acquiring the object that was not considered by the developers. The developers may have intended that a player perform steps A, B, and C to get the item, but players may accidentally discover that they can skip steps A and B and simply do step C to gain the reward.

More often though nerfs are implemented as an anti-botting tactic. This tactic is favored because it is easily implemented; and, although it has a dubious effect on botting it generally harms legitimate players more than the botters.

A classic scenario is a situation where a player runs a bot to gather items of loot by killing monsters repeatedly. Nerfing the loot's drop rate on the monsters harms legitimate players by decreasing the reward for their play time, while it generally affects bots little because the time would simply have been wasted and so any reward at all is sufficient to induce continued botting. In addition, excessive nerfing can often frustrate legitimate players to the point where they begin botting simply so they can spend their play time playing instead of constantly gathering resources. Additionally, there are many professional players that play for the explicit purpose of gathering resources to sell at e-commerce websites. Nerfing the drop rate of an item merely increases the scarcity, driving up the price, and increasing the profits from botting in this manner.
 
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truantduck

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What's the funny name to call it when a power or item becomes more powerful?

I mean "nerf" is hilarious. "buffed" is not.

What about "CKized"?
 

truantduck

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Nerf List:

- Old change to imk2 and Mod Merc and adj m61a1 to reduce their range.
- varrious changes to the skill system. (some nerfs, some enhancments)
- mob increase +to hit change.
- crafting system change - new items such as attachment amps more crappy than old counterparts.
- Running speed reduction
- Faps don't heal full when running
- Radar range limited absurdly

Thanks to Ghandi and The Mighty who contributed several ideas, some of which I don't consider real nerfs.

Yes, I know, it's totally subjective what could be considered a "nerf" and a "change."

For example, I don't consider the new "T" functionality a nerf. It's just a new way of doing T's that puts them more in line with what it was designed for (getting out of being stuck.) Another example is the oil rig. In my subjective opinion, because the overall amount of oil is the same, I don't consider this change a "nerf."

List on!
 

Da Celt

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Some comments on your items list - added reference numbers so that we can merge them if related. Added 2 subsection per nerf to explain it.

Potential Nerf List:
(1) Old change to imk2 and Mod Merc and adj m61a1 to reduce their range.
(2) varrious changes to the skill system. (some nerfs, some enhancments)
(3) mob increase +to hit change.
(4) crafting system change - new items such as attachment amps more crappy than old counterparts.
(5) Running speed reduction
(6) Faps don't heal full when running
(7) Radar range limited absurdly

Selected Nerf List
(1) Old change to imk2 and Mod Merc and adj m61a1 to reduce their range.
  • Nerf Reason:Weapons too powerful
  • Game effect:strategic depth is increased-new tactics required for big MOBs, reduced advantage to high end weapons
(2) varrious changes to the skill system. (some nerfs, some enhancments)
  • Nerf Reason:remove (auto)skilling on weak mobs, causing hugh constant increase in skills gap between newbie and mid-urber players
  • Game effect:Less adjustment of loot/mobs required per VU. Many skillers left
(3) mob increase +to hit change.
  • Nerf Reason:??
  • Game effect:??
(5) Running speed reduction
  • Nerf Reason: add more game stratigies, cant outrun all mobs.
  • Game effect: large mobs require more teamwork to be cost effective
(6) Faps don't heal full when running
  • Nerf Reason: add more game stratigies and rebalance for high end faps.
  • Game effect: Removes shoot and run option for most mobs. balance of Loot pool away from high end fap users.
(7) Radar range limited(only see high end mobs and players)
  • Nerf Reason: to reduce lag if more mobs are added to a region.
  • Game effect: long range weapons no longer effictive on mid-low mobs, only of use with large MOBs.


Rejected Nerf List
(4) crafting system change - new items such as attachment amps more crappy than old counterparts.
  • Reject reason: This is not a change/balance to existing design or feature logic, just an addition of a useless feature ;)
 

MindBuster

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Now that's the hard part for MA in an evolving virtual universe like project-entropia.

Community is good, forums where old players can give their behalf, but as PE is evolving all the time and is "dynamic" it is very hard to please both old players and newcommers.

PE isnt just like other games, where the game is released and people play it for some months, rarely a year or two, PE is virtual universe that needs evaluations all the time, new stuff being added that is very hard to predict the outcome of, changes that just needs to be taking care of despite the reaction of the old players.

Changes are needed occasionally, some might seem bad for the old userbase, but newcommers dont know better, just like in the real world.

Take MA as "politicians" instead of "ordinary" gamemakers. ;)
 

Ghandi

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Since you didn't post all my listed nerfs, I'll repost it here. I grayed less important/insignificant nerfs, but they are still nerfs so I included them.

Basically I'm talking about things that changed for the worse imo.

  • Alt+F4 doesn't log you off instantly.
  • Must wait 20 seconds to log off (rather than 0).
  • Pressing you must wait 60 seconds (rather than 10?)
  • You can no longer move after pressing T.
  • Outbacko and M2201 were atleast decent weapons... now TT guns are rediculously inefficient.
  • This create carried no loot.
    [*]Oil rig spits out less oil overall (slower and more, but less overall)
  • Running slowed down when items equipped/ready.
  • Faps don't heal full when running
  • Stats (agility, strength, etc.) increase far slower than before.
  • Some animals faster than before (especially Longu) [I remember hunting them with an amped outbacko with no problem ~ :D ]
    [*]Character creation attributes and hair limited much.[*]Autorun used to be a keybind... why not anymore?[*]Old map used to be better imo (except when on the edge of a section)
  • Radar range limited absurdly
  • Less items in loot
  • Skilling no longer works. It doesn't make much sense that you get less skill for using a gun with less damage... you're still using a gun.
    [*]Animals don't attack eachother anymore (not much of a nerf, but damn that was cool)
  • Mob AI prevents the use of runners. Another noob job bites the dust.
  • Can't hurt or sweat trapped creatures. Thats just stupid.
  • 1x0 less efficient
    [*]"Starting town" moved from Atlas Haven to PA. Atlas Haven was a better starting ground and was more centrally located.
 

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truantduck said:
What about "CKized"?
I affiliate the word CKized with exploits and duplicating :laugh: :hammer:
 

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In many games balancement isnt really important because they keep adding bigger and bigger weapons and more levels and so on.

Think about Anarchy Online for example. All item powers raise directly levelwise as you get more levels. And its more or less same with many other games. At level 1 you use weapon doing 1 damage to kill monster of level 1. At level 50 you use weapon doing 50 damage to kill monster of level 50. If some weapon is out of balance a bit it doesnt matter because couple levels up and it will still be inferior against mobs.

This model isnt really usable with real money economy because people would use high end weapons against low end mobs to get maximum efficiency. Only way to prevent that would be raising risks with high end mobs - killing level 1 mob costs 1 ped, killing level 50 mob costs 50 peds. But that scheme really isnt good since people cant go up too much with the money they spend.

Related with nerfing but not with list. Sorry.
 

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What Essi tells here is very true.
More powerfull guns and ppl with higher skills are ingame now then before.
To balance this out, some mobs and robots also need to be more powerfull.
About TT-guns, I don't think any guns should be able in TT.
Crafting update in VU 5.2 resulted in price increase for older equipment like guns and attachments. This I am sure was to speed up economy and in the same time defend the old crafed guns/tools/attachments was harder to make.
Many ppl whined about slower running-speed, but I think game become better after this. Now running-speed is skill-based. A new player will get outruned from an Atrax Young, but a veteran player (If the veteran skilled) can easy outrun it.
Skill change is something that had to be done. This I think is because of more introduced profession ingame. Primary skill raise faster now and it is also based on tool you use. Secondary skills raise slower.
Some secondary skills determine effectiveness. (Thx to Mindark, we now can estimate damage-interval) Example is LWT, BLP Tech, IRD and others.
Primary skills like rifle/handgun is a base for gaining pro. standings.
Pro. standings is used to unlock triggered skills (example Coolness)
Triggered skills have many different influence in game. Coolness is f.ex a HP-builder that helps ppl to have more HP-buffer to not die so often when killing larger targets. MMS (triggered skills) together with AIM and a few others (weapon handling, etc) help you to not miss target so often.
Etc. etc. etc.

I heared that "skill-limit" before this VU was 12k. Now it is 20k. When more and more ppl get very effective, it is not so good for the newer playerbase and that I think was some of the reason for skilling change. I am sure it will be tuned a little in the future but how it is now, I feel it good.
What MA needs to do is to add more options and more professions so new players also can catch up in new professions if they want.

Future will tell what more MA will change, but PE is dynamic and tuning will be done for sure. The most important is to not make PE to easy. If so, ppl will leave after a few months. Also players need long-term goals. Like 5-10 years in the future. Without patience not everyone can aim that high, but PE is for everyone.

/Kjetil :cool:
 

truantduck

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Da Celt said:
S
(3) mob increase +to hit change.
  • Nerf Reason:??
  • Game effect:??
Nerf reason: More realism, it should be more difficult to evade very large monsters. To decrease the enormous benifit those with high evade/avoid had when fighting mobs.

Game effect: Large mobs hit you more often.


Da Celt said:
Rejected Nerf List
(4) crafting system change - new items such as attachment amps more crappy than old counterparts.
  • Reject reason: This is not a change/balance to existing design or feature logic, just an addition of a useless feature ;)
Compare the stats of the A204 and the E-amp 14 and tell me that's not a nerf.
 

PhOeNiX-47

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Funny how no one mentioned decoys. That is the one that killed PE for me.
 

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PhOeNiX-47 said:
Funny how no one mentioned decoys. That is the one that killed PE for me.

I keep seeing decoys mentioned here and there as having been nerfed...what happened to them ? I've used them quite extensively in game...or at least used to...before my fighting abilities grew..and they saved my butt on more that one occasion...and also gave me a false sense of security a few times :)

Az
 

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Azrael said:
I keep seeing decoys mentioned here and there as having been nerfed...what happened to them ? I've used them quite extensively in game...or at least used to...before my fighting abilities grew..and they saved my butt on more that one occasion...and also gave me a false sense of security a few times :)

Az
The mob used to chomp away at a decoy even while you were shooting it- now it will go to the decoy and become distracted but once you initiate shooting it again it will chase you.... so basically, decoys only serve to buy you some running time now :girl:
 

Azrael

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Svetlana said:
The mob used to chomp away at a decoy even while you were shooting it- now it will go to the decoy and become distracted but once you initiate shooting it again it will chase you.... so basically, decoys only serve to buy you some running time now :girl:

Sounds right to me tho...its a decoy...not a pacifier :) I know I would'nt stay distracted very long with someone hurting me. :laugh:
 

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Azrael said:
Sounds right to me tho...its a decoy...not a pacifier :) I know I would'nt stay distracted very long with someone hurting me. :laugh:
Exactly! ;) Hand this man a glass of the finest.... :girl:

It caused a good stir when it happened, chiefly b/c it was a fairly drastic change to many hunters who utilized the old decoys on mobs like neconu, etc. They were expensive to use but they kind of paid off, whereas now I don't really think they pay off except to narrowly escape with your life every now and then. :girl:
 

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Question!!

I havent used a decoy in a long while. If more then one mob is after you and you drop a decoy do all the mobs stop at decoy??


Von
 

Azrael

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Von said:
Question!!

I havent used a decoy in a long while. If more then one mob is after you and you drop a decoy do all the mobs stop at decoy??


Von
No, only one mob per decoy from my experiences....but I dispense them semi continuosly until they all are stopped and I can heal, re-enguage target, or TP away.

Discalimer: Decoys dont always work for me... but do the majority of the time. Seems higher level mobs such as AOA and spiders have high decoy resistance :)
 

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Azrael said:
Discalimer: Decoys dont always work for me... but do the majority of the time. Seems higher level mobs such as AOA and spiders have high decoy resistance :)
Ya- actually it depends on your decoy dispensing skill and the mob.... mine is very low so I often ahve misses :mad:
 

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Nerfs

Da Celt said:
Rejected Nerf List
(4) crafting system change - new items such as attachment amps more crappy than old counterparts.
  • Reject reason: This is not a change/balance to existing design or feature logic, just an addition of a useless feature ;)
There are quite a few crafted items that changed names and stats, such as the a204/E-amp 14 mentioned before. Most of them was made noticably worse than the previous ones, so this most definetly is a nerf.

Also something else to consider.
If you add a crafted item to the item list that makes all other crafted items obsolete, that means the crafting system changes drastically. Therefore an added item can be a nerf, just as well as changing an already existing one.
 

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Tigerman said:
There are quite a few crafted items that changed names and stats, such as the a204/E-amp 14 mentioned before. Most of them was made noticably worse than the previous ones, so this most definetly is a nerf.

Also something else to consider.
If you add a crafted item to the item list that makes all other crafted items obsolete, that means the crafting system changes drastically. Therefore an added item can be a nerf, just as well as changing an already existing one.
I don't really you can compare E-amp 14 with a204 since it was very different to make those. E-amp 14 is easy to make. Only you got resources and bp, you can click manufacture and success if you got some skills.
a204, you needed to make components, then parts, then you could try different way to make the attachment. It was more job and therefore market is not flooeded with a204 as it would be with e-amp 14 if they had similar stats.

/Kjetil :cool:
 

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Kjetil said:
I don't really you can compare E-amp 14 with a204 since it was very different to make those. E-amp 14 is easy to make. Only you got resources and bp, you can click manufacture and success if you got some skills.
a204, you needed to make components, then parts, then you could try different way to make the attachment. It was more job and therefore market is not flooeded with a204 as it would be with e-amp 14 if they had similar stats.

/Kjetil :cool:
are you saying because craft now is a boring shit that is just clic clic like a moron done by a stupid software and it cost 3 time more to get half skill than in past , the item must be shit too ?

so what is the point to craft ?
 

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Etopia said:
are you saying because craft now is a boring shit that is just clic clic like a moron done by a stupid software and it cost 3 time more to get half skill than in past , the item must be shit too ?

so what is the point to craft ?
Point to craft is to subsidise to miners, I guess. They don't dig up TT-value for the bombs they waste and not at all paying their decay of mining equipment. (This in average)

Point here is that we will see more use of constructed parts in the future and I guess the "moron clic clic" is same as "moron clic clic" on snables with mann mph/m2201 or simple carbine.

We have to divide crafting in 4.
1. Before VU 5.2
2. After VU 5.2 but before VU 7.4
3. After VU 7.4 but before VU 7.5
4. After VU 7.5

Skill changes was in 3 of them.
Only #3 was "nerfing" with skills.

Easier to make -> flooding
Harder to make -> whining
Easier to gain skills -> flooding
Harder to gain skills -> whining

Anything in general -> Whining.

/Kjetil :cool:
 

Etopia

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Kjetil said:
Point to craft is to subsidise to miners, I guess. They don't dig up TT-value for the bombs they waste and not at all paying their decay of mining equipment. (This in average)
yeah poor miner , they only take 90% TT back , so crafter should pay 120% or more and got 80% back.

also as far as i know , no one should get back TT value foer what they spend , that how the game is made , so i dont understand why you whant miner can do that.

finally i am disgusted latelly.
all my soc turn in miner ...
we all miss more (nerf), loot are realy low(nerf) , i get more no-loot than before ( nerf), item TT is near 0 (nerf) , number of item is very low (nerf)...

etopia who go buy stuff for mining
 
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