News: New Treasure Island Deeds

Msturlese

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Dear Ludwig that answers not the REAL question that seems very clear
- IS THERE ANY CHANCE of recourse from previous owners or the Court settled and case is DEAD AND BURIED?
in case of positive answer, where is the link to the court settlement (at least in italy all tribunal determinations are public acts)
i think no one cares about single ppl accounts, the question was if any residual right on those lands exist or not that could harm new buyers
still unanswered.

[EDITED: Transparency generate trust and lures investment]
 
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San

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Nobody asked for user account information, but for investment security in form of evidence that ownership can no longer be challenged. As posted above, rulings in this case are public information, only that they can't be easily found and interpreted by those not familiar with the Swedish language. This is why it would be prudent to relay the relevant bits with a substantial investment offering such as this.

I don't know if there is an equivalent of a German saying which is used in situations like this, "jemandem die Würmer aus der Nase ziehen müssen" = "having to drag the worms out of someone's nose", roughly meaning having to ferret out information of someone who isn't inclined to give it proactively. Does it really have to be like that, every single time?
 

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Dear Ludwig that answers not the REAL question that seems very clear
- IS THERE ANY CHANCE of recourse from previous owners or the Court settled and case is DEAD AND BURIED?
in case of positive answer, where is the link to the court settlement (at least in italy all tribunal determinations are public acts)
i think no one cares about single ppl accounts, the question was if any residual right on those lands exist or not that could harm new buyers
still unanswered.
Well the answer is very clear, up to you to believe it or not
To answer one recurring question here:

New Treasure Island is a virtual asset legally owned and controlled by MindArk.
 

bigPaul

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Ludwig, in order to explain the exact Revenue of these new Deeds, just make a Numerical Example , and all doubts will vanish.


-->
"For each 100 ped spent by Players on New Treasure Island, exactly X ped will go to the weekly-Deed-revenue" --> Just define the value of "X"

This will end all the doubts.
 
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messi91

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Does it really have to be like that, every single time?
Its always been like that and I am afraid the opposite of that Is far worse.Let people discover how things works is part of the game and always has been.
I strongly believe that Mindark should not disclose how percentages are being distributed among other things that they should never talk about, Its their thing and if you don't trust them you should not invest.
I am all in for people who put their time, research, trust, investment, personal tests, experiences vs people who receive spreedsheets, graphs with tt returns, complete documentation on every single piece of information including employees , what they eat etc before they invest their hard working 20$.
I also believe that the initial information is enough for any true entropian if they want to invest in a virtual land deed whatever it is.
 

San

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Its always been like that and I am afraid the opposite of that Is far worse.Let people discover how things works is part of the game and always has been.
I strongly believe that Mindark should not disclose how percentages are being distributed among other things that they should never talk about, Its their thing and if you don't trust them you should not invest.
I am all in for people who put their time, research, trust, investment, personal tests, experiences vs people who receive spreedsheets, graphs with tt returns, complete documentation on every single piece of information including employees , what they eat etc before they invest their hard working 20$.
I also believe that the initial information is enough for any true entropian if they want to invest in a virtual land deed whatever it is.
This remark was not related to game content, but to information pertaining to an investment. And no, not "investment" in in-game gear and information you may be able to use in gainful ways, but to a real financial product. Different standards apply to this sort of things. It is nothing new that they often treat one like the other (or worse but this is not the place to rehash all that). It was a rhethorical question.
 

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This remark was not related to game content, but to information pertaining to an investment. And no, not "investment" in in-game gear and information you may be able to use in gainful ways, but to a real financial product. Different standards apply to this sort of things. It is nothing new that they often treat one like the other (or worse but this is not the place to rehash all that). It was a rhethorical question.
Is it a real financial product what Mindark is selling, or is it just some pixels that have many simularities with a financial product?
 
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Let's look back in 3 years.
I was very cynical when CLD came out and that was a big mistake.
I believe that the price of TI shares will go higher than 10PED in the end, this combined with any return would already be a profit.
It's basically virtual real estate and should be treated as such. Not as a currency or something.

But hey, if I'm wrong in 3 years, I'll prolly learn something. I learned from not investing in CLD too.
Hey if you are right I'll be the first to congratulate you. I guess if you were around long enough TI would be appealing as NTI.. Unique mobs, I don't think unique loot..?
I just can't get around that number though 800.000. If they all sold and then doubled in price as CP shares, that would make the LA worth 3.2 million USD..
Is that correct? For a share of 50% of the income from decay..?

I was going to list the Deeds and shares that I thought would do well and thought wouldn't, but it is just hindsight so what is the point.
It was interesting in doing some research to see the reaction of people to the idea's of sell offs and shares sales though.
With the two proven and most popular sell offs, CLD's and CP shares there was a great history to look at before buying. Even so there was some concern about CP shares before they were sold. I thought it was a foregone conclusion they would sell but couldn't liquidate quickly enough.
 

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Sorry if this has already been raised but are there any thoughts on how TI payouts work in regards to CLDs?

I mean presumably CLD's represent a share of 25% the total revenue generated from Calypso where as TI is essentially a set of LA's where the owner has properties allocated to them too, that they can sell, unique DNA for mob creation on the LA's, and ability to set a tax on said LA's that they get as a percentage of the loot looted there. Ultimately this tax wouldn't have directly contributed to CLD payout, only stuff like how much decay went on planet wide or how much was made from auction fees.

However with TI becomming something folks can buy shares in... how does that work? what are we buying a share of? loot Tax on the LAs? With MA in control, what will the tax be set to? Or is that all changing?
 

TheAlchemist

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Sorry if this has already been raised but are there any thoughts on how TI payouts work in regards to CLDs?

I mean presumably CLD's represent a share of 25% the total revenue generated from Calypso where as TI is essentially a set of LA's where the owner has properties allocated to them too, that they can sell, unique DNA for mob creation on the LA's, and ability to set a tax on said LA's that they get as a percentage of the loot looted there. Ultimately this tax wouldn't have directly contributed to CLD payout, only stuff like how much decay went on planet wide or how much was made from auction fees.

However with TI becomming something folks can buy shares in... how does that work? what are we buying a share of? loot Tax on the LAs? With MA in control, what will the tax be set to? Or is that all changing?

I think it will cut into some of the CLD payouts. Of course MA will be very murky about it but they will basically re-divide the cake.
TI is just CP without the space part in between.
 

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  • Deed revenue represents 50% of Planet Calypso’s planet partner revenue for all activity on New Treasure Island.
Ah sorry just spotted this.

Which confuses me... because I thought CLD holders were already getting a share of effectively 25% of the revenue generated from Calypso which I thought included TI and all LA's, properties so on and so forth. Correct me if I'm wrong... it's been a while!

If MA are selling TI shares as a separate share of this revenue.... then this would surely generate revenue for Planet Calypso... and the CLD owners would see this in the payouts?

To take a more extreme imaginary example... if MA were to suddenly halve the area of Calypso that qualified for CLD returns, and flog off the other half to new share holders... unless the original CLD owners saw something of that sell off revenue, it would be like halving the ROI of those shares without compensation. In essence the original CLD's would represent 12.5% of Calypso total revenue as opposed to the original 25%.

I note that MA say they'll be coming forward with more information about some of these questions. Can I urge them to employ a Venn Diagram in that explanation. Life is always better with a Venn Diagram... :D

R.d39a514f6250be65753263b2954d77bd
 

jetsina

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I've written quite a lot already based around what you ask, but sorry if you find it hard to follow.
Where I can quickly disagree with you is this. I believe MA and planet partners always got revenue from land areas, the same as on non land areas. What the LA owner had was the ability to put a tax on top, but also with a cost of land management, so not purely tax=revenue.
On the new TI there will be no LAs - and the area will be the whole server = 64km2. If activity stayed the same then there would be no difference to the revenues to MA and pps.

What we are unsure of is the new splitting up of the revenue, and whether the new portion includes any revenue that had gone towards CLDs. The expression "pp revenue" may in future not actually belong to the pp at all in the future if the following is true:
Deed revenue represents 50% of Planet Calypso’s planet partner revenue for all activity on New Treasure Island. AND
CLD revenue represents 50% of Planet Calypso’s planet partner revenue for all activity on New Treasure Island.

It has also been asked by various people to clarify if "all activity" also includes crafting done via terminals on the NTI server. It is not unusual for MA to simply turn a deaf ear to clarification requests, however, to things they do not wish to answer (for whatever reason). I'm tempted from time to time to think of how players could find out for themselves by "coordinating" their behavour in a massive drive for the 'truth', maybe even with EP4 events on NTI or something. It might quickly show up any anomalies in the payouts if we start to pay attention to details and channel our turnovers.
Edit: crafting doesn't traditionally flag up LAs when globalling, does it? Or does it? That might be a clue to begin with...
 

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Just saw another post acting like 50%+50% equals more than 100%, except it says 25% + 50% is more than 100% this time. Would make more sense if it made sense, but I guess the stupider the perception, the more clarity on how basic info can be easily misinterpreted without "further" clarification.
Anyways,
I was just pondering on some hopeful endeavors to come in the future and how exciting this opportunity is to see in so many ways that it is being introduced.
A lot of concern is being raised by the people who believe 50+50 is more than 100, but I don't discredit their fears although I don't see logical reason to be be concerned about the consequences that have been raised from Treasure Islands History just because of directing information in a manner other than it's originality simply for the purpose of creating further dismay out of some type of self-righteous conquest or something. I am sure it was all confusing enough as it is.
I am extremely disappointed that the Land Areas of Treasure island were not redistributed among the community for purchase as a lot of other planets have been developing/integrating these means of gaming onto their platforms. Though it is certain that there is a lot of potential available on Calypso and it is still quite a long ways ahead of the other planets and this NTID and New Treasure Island feature as it is being presented shows along with the other development that has come over the years the great interactivity of gameplay being made available to the community base. Good content.
 

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  • Extraterrestrial Creatures (subject to change)
    • Cornoanterion
    • Daspletor
I look forward to a mutant that mutates in to other critters as you fight it that they will call 'subject to change.'
 

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Is it a real financial product what Mindark is selling, or is it just some pixels that have many simularities with a financial product?
The deeds are, independently from the game itself. You can treat them as purely passive investment without being interested in any pixels.
 

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Warning! This post contains lots of what if's and speculations.

First off, I have a data sheet of all my hunts since the past 3-4 years and with all the globals from those hunts as well. I don't mine or craft much, and therefor I've left that data out of these calculations. I looked back to my hunts from this year.

The first thing I did is to come up with a number that I call the Global per Decay Factor. It means that I've summed up the total decay and divided that by the value of my globals. 219.3 / 52.1 = 4,21.
I've played a bit with the numbers, like with or without teamhunts and with or without globals below 50 PED. The GpD stayed around that number.

Then I took a look at EntropiaLife and added the global values from these (Treasure Island) mobs: Calypsocod, Frescoquda, Furor, Globster, Bristlehog, Letomie, Miner Bot, SEG, Daspletor. That total for the past 30 days is 19.925 PED.
19.925 x 4,21 = 83.948 PED decay from hunting these mobs.
Note that I've included mobs that are not unique to New Treasure Island. I've added the Daspletor because that is "subject to change". I've added Bristlehog because that's at least one small mob that isn't overly hunted all over Calypso like Drone and Allophyl. I have no idea if Calypsocod is unique to NTI. I've deleted some mobs, but the estimated revenue stayed roughly the same.

As I understand it, decay is same as revenue = 84k PED.
Deed holders get 50% = 42k PED.
MA gives out the insane amount of 800.000 deeds. 42k / 800k = 0,05 PED. Or 5 PEC per month (1 payout every 6 days) for each deed for the bigger unique mobs. It's all very speculative, but I've multiplied the 84k revenue by 1,7 to account for the mining and other mobs. That way the payout is 0,09 PED (9 PED per month or every 2-3 days a payout).

I don't dare to bet on me hitting the mark anywhere close ...
 

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I think these deeds infringe on CLD owners rights because they use the same construction on part of CLD domain. Not the first time to sell something twice (CP). And will this revenue construction bring enough cash flow from barely one server and 100looter/100eff hunters grinding dasps? What's the revenue construction in Ancient Greece?

Edit: or does CLD apply only to Eudoria?
 
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Msturlese

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@San:
The deeds are not "independent" from teh game itself.

@ bregi sorry mate but those number are represeniting just the globals and mean nothing. GIGO applies in those calculation that bring those "deeds"! to return 10 ped in one year. wrong and misleading info. and no, global are not decay cashed in on EL number, are just globals... we could not track anything more before latest chat release.
NOW we can track TT loot and composition, and this is due to randomnexx not even an accurate proxy. the "cost to hunt" FORMULA IS ABOUT 1 TO 2% for best setup, 3--5% for 90% of player
but is not public data, we need to proxy it from CLD, the average calypso participation

as a last post on this topic by my side:
Deeds GIVE NO PROPERTY RIGHTS so technically represent NO principal but just an actualized series of Cash flows.
it is called "interest only bond" better knows with the acronym "STRIP" or "srparate trading registered interest and principal of securities"
Coupon stripping definition
Its value is the NPV (Net present value) of the actualized future cash flow instance and are to be valued according to this but can simplify (and value them some more)

the most important factor in this NPV-ization is the IRR (Internal rate of return) or the desired Yield requested from the valuator to determine the "Fair Value"

MA offers this product at 10 ped and we got no other Proxy that CLD to value this considering that the activity on Calypso is normally distributed on the 31 servers of the planet (activity is not but TT Return is so after some period we could have NTI like other zones.

NTI will add NO Tax on the zone (0 tax land, so as any other caly location) and the formula was above, the land will receive half of MA revenue or 25% of the server income.
that 25% is ROUGHLY APPROXIMATE one half of a CLD so we can compare yield of the security to the CLD and derive a proxy of value

cld pay (averaged up) 4 ped and cost on market 3000 to acquire per week .... that is 3000/4 = 750 week to get money back (i will not even discount as NPV, just plain math)
now.... the deed will receive half of it or 2 ped per week every 3000 so will need (CLD equivalent) 1500 week to return money (it is 28 years so you dont open calculator)

now some consideration on the value of the deed
1. being it including a fresh fauna it is hard to base decision on past (but this fauna is not sure to remain so we can use it as a proxy or give it no extra value or just a small one)
2. we do not know how many servers are respect to CLD on the zone (i suppose 1 on TI so it is about 1/30th of a CLD as per representation but let's say 2 so it is 1/15th of it
3. notional amount was 60.000.000 Ped for CLD so 1/15th of it is 4.000.000 ped for DOUBLE THE YIELD of NTI Deed
4. we have 8.000.000 ped sale for half the CLD revenue so it is double for one half = 1/4 of CLD

Hence "ceteris paribus" i value the NTI as yielding 2% compared to 8% of the LCD.
ANY extra value is the ability of new monster to attract grinders onthe island, keeping in mind that MA has no interest to make preferences for a specific zone, they cashed in already the CLD and cashed in already the NTI deed value as it starts so for MA it is a neutral zone
Planet Cllypso partner has even more interest due to the fact that it splits with 800.000 deeds the revenues on that zone (maybe is a separate planet partner for NIT so he is competing and will probably try to do something like cyrene, that after one year is still MIA the armor chain.

i hope i am wrong and unable to do my job but i dare to say that those deed SEEM to value 3 ped and are pretty much overvalued like arkadia moon deeds (with some more income capacity.
 
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San

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@Msturlese We can argue about semantics all day, it doesn't answer any relevant questions. Of course the deeds wouldn't exist without the game, like any company share wouldn't exist without an actual business entity. But you don't need to be interested in that at all. Many investors in shares or derivatives also don't care for the underlying, it's just numbers attached to a symbol to them. Some do the opposite and are very involved in fundamentals. Both ways are possible and everyday practice.

I simply find this, as it seems, deliberately minimalist, terse information policy which only gets amends upon public outcry, if at all, inconsistent with the seriousness of what is on offer. This is the non-game part of the game. Not that this is anything new in here, the hecklers aré all over it again. No company I know that sells an investment product lets this happen so freely and carelessly.

In the case of TI, we have a virtual location with a troubled history and it needs to be known without a possibility of doubt that its past is cleared and what there is to expect for its future (e.g. certainty of FOMA mobs staying?) Also, how exactly the money flows are designed since its being embedded in Calypso and its deed system adds a complication. For $800k, this is not asked too much.

(Lastly, why do I care? I'm not sitting on a pile of money ready to jump in. There is no shortage of risk takers who are eager to pick up such things anyway, we'll see in time how well it goes. Honestly, I don't know. Observing the folly has created an addiction of its own. There is still nothing quite like it ...)
 

jetsina

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@Msturlese :
the land will receive half of MA revenue or 25% of the server income.
As far as I can see, the pp is Caly, that belongs to MA but is not the same as MA platform fees applied all over EU, including on Caly. For Caly, MA currently takes its fee percentage (50%) AND gets 50% of the pp portion because it owns this, with CLD holders getting the other 50% (of 50%), i.e. 25% of total revenue.
If I am right (after initial confusion reigned), then NTI investors will also get 25% of total revenue.
This will leave the platform fees as they were still going to MA (50%), but no Caly portion anymore for the NTI area going to Caly>MA.
The description "Deed revenue represents 50% of Planet Calypso’s planet partner revenue for all activity on New Treasure Island." is thus the second half that the pp (Caly) still had coming in. In the future I thus see CLD and NTI getting the SAME revenue each, but split up differently due to the number of shares.
I thus have a factor of 2 difference in that part of the calculation compared to Mstur I think.

For simplicity I've ignored 'foreign-born activity %' and the referral programme.

Also, if I am right, no CLD holders will have been harmed in the making of this film. It would be nice to have that simple point confirmed by MA. Of course, if I'm wrong, then I fear I cannot make the maths add up, sigh. I have tried!

Edit: Ah, San, yes indeed. :) I've been quite drawn in to this...
Observing the folly has created an addiction of its own.
 
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Just out of curiosity, does the % from the LA where the big Eomons spawned is distributed to the CLD owners? Since i read that LA's dont contribute to CLD payout, if they will start making more deeds for more places, that means CLD payout will diminish, and even the name Calypso Land Deed in fact its not Calypso and they should be named Parts of Calypso Land Deeds.
 

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Just out of curiosity, does the % from the LA where the big Eomons spawned is distributed to the CLD owners? Since i read that LA's dont contribute to CLD payout, if they will start making more deeds for more places, that means CLD payout will diminish, and even the name Calypso Land Deed in fact its not Calypso and they should be named Parts of Calypso Land Deeds.
ALL LA activity contributes to MA/PP/deed revenue. Anyone saying otherwise are idiots and/or liars
 

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copied text outta the CLD -release note...

Q. Are Land Lots the same as Land Areas?
A. No. Outback Land Areas (commonly referred to as Land Areas) are part of a different system within Entropia Universe, through which participants can purchase a defined area of land and impose taxes on the hunting and mining activities of other participants. By contrast, Land Lot deeds offer participants the opportunity to receive a share of the entire activity on Planet Calypso, not just activity made in a particular area.

So the OLA incomes werent calced into the CLD ...but all other land areas were ?......
and in their definition an ola is a land which can be bought by a player ...like treasure island was ...
-> so per definition TI was never calced into the cld rev and therefore stands seperate ...to get into the TI shares then

--> but also on the bold text...."entire activity on caly.." so its then all except player buyable land areas ...right?
(my english understanding on this point isnt very well...i would/could see/interprete it in 2 diff ways)
Maybe some1 else could explain that then ?

--> and are we getting also "items" like ark deeds ....or will they only be in the exchange center like other shares ? --> then for me its a TI share..not a TI deed


Source:


ty,
Eddie
 

Hijacker27

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c--> but also on the bold text...."entire activity on caly.." so its then all except player buyable land areas ...right?

Definition of entire

Entire means ALL of calypso. Which means LA and not LA. Which means that MA takes a cut of activity on land areas as well. Anyone that does not understand this is purposely lying to themselves and others.
 

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so, deeds go on sale on Wednesday

Still no official answer from MA in regards to the many valid questions raised in this thread...

In their official statement it reads that the LAs are not taxed anymore which kinda makes me think that this now really conflicts the CLD payout as I am under the assumption that CLD covered all of Calypso (including Amethera) ...

Would be very nice if we had some answer MA.
 

jetsina

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Other players can do their best to explain stuff that is 'known', but the lack of an answer so far makes DD difficult.
LA taxes are not related to CLDs; LA taxation was the way in which the owner of the land got a share and he/she could set the percentage themself, but might have more or less activity on the land as a result.
NTI will no longer be 'taxed' - just the full 8x8 km grid as open land/waters apparently. Share/deed ownership payouts will thus have to come from the general revenue, but need not affect CLDs either IF Caly as PP is selling off its remaining 50% of this area.
This clarification - and potentially having no development unless by MA themselves who provide the platform - has STILL not been made, however.
 

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The deeds are, independently from the game itself. You can treat them as purely passive investment without being interested in any pixels.
Can you buy them without ever creating an avatar?
 
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Rip in pieces AG and Crystal Palace shares
 
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