- Jun 8, 2006
- The Prodigy
- Avatar Name
- Shawn Thark Columbo
Could be, maybe they changed things? We'd easily see this too
Busy day, so I can’t address everything right now, but basically yes, somewhere between 10-15 minutes things go back to “normal” HR for whatever is in that area.Hey,
so yeah the idea to use more people but fewer spots was to see if there still is a CHANCE to get a hit, eventho people before you didn't. As in, does MA have some mechanism to reduce the losses at all. When you guys did your tests, I was surprised to still see a 5%ish hit rate for the third player. I can see some low percentage for the second, cuz sometimes you mess up and drop another probe by accident and still find something, so maybe "there was another invisible mob in the area" but it could also be that the lowest hitrate simply is 5%.
The question of:
"Do other miners affect my hitrate?" Seems to have been answered by you, with a clear yes, if within X minutes. (max right now is 15 in your test if I understand correctly? To be narrowed/corrected down if people want)
But the question of:
"Is there a floor for your hit rate, and how does that affect your multis?" Seems to still be in question?
I understand that you like the idea of testing people moving and mining normally but after reading this thread a little bit, it seems the only thing people are unclear on, is if the hit rate just goes down if you mine in an overmined area, but maybe the multipliers go up, so that everybody ends up at the same tt. Or if the hitrate depends on the overlap or if its simply a set but lower HitRate. Like, maybe MA did implement something like:
FIRST_MINER_EVER drops a bomb ->
save miners location, drop = [x=1234, y=1234, range=45, t=1234] with (x,y-coords, range of finder ,and time of drop) ->
hitrate =35% ->
come up with and apply some multiplier.
MinerB drops a bomb ->
check position and radius ->
check relevant drops within last 15mins ->
if no intersect, then hitrate =35%, else hitrate = 5% ->
Come up with and apply some multiplier. This COULD be: if HR = 35, then do this. Else, do another thing.
(Yes, yes, I know this is forum level programming, you know what I mean)
My prediction would be that, NO, your tt doesnt go up when HR goes down. Simply because mining always feels very old school. And back in the day, hunting and stuff was way more unforgiving than today. As far as I know mining doesnt have loot 2.0. And also, people would have figured that out and used it to get hofs, plus it would be kind of annoying to some people to see someone running after them get a global/hof when they just went thru the field. (Even if, now, we dont think thats how that works, but its a perception thing)
I always thought that you wouldnt get anything if you mined the exact spot as someone else before, but maybe there really is a floor for the HR.
So thats why I suggested getting 8 people droping at the same spot, then move 110m or what ever finder range x2 is. If we really do see the 5%ish HR for the 2nd to 8th player, then we can be pretty sure about the HR part of the question above. I dunno if I wanna really test TT-Return. I mean we prolly have pretty good data on normal hit size, so if the tt wants to stay the same by giving bigger multies, then even normal hits should be bigger. I guess we can take a look at that but I kinda doubt it.
Extra credit for reading this wall of text: yes there are a few assumptions in here: all this is independent of people doing the test and their activity history, tools dont affect hitrate at least if they have the same radius, all of caly is homogenious in a hit rate sense, time of day/week/month/lunar cycle/position of alpha centaury relative to mars etc. doesnt matter, I checked that noone mined our testing spot right before us, skills dont matter. If you disagree with those, do your own tests to account for those, and just take mine as a fart in the wind of an uneducated boble dibub.
I am always amazed that people who have been around for years, maybe10 years or more, still talk about RNG...
How is it possible not to understand that there is ZERO randomness..?
Pretty sure these people still believe in "luck".
And some of them even think that their choices can influence their results..
Now people knows their return is set and capped in Hunt, they think they can beat the game whith mining..? WTF.
There is no such thing.
The game is designed to let you think so, but it's all wrong.
Your return, and therefore your hit rate, is set in advance, and is avatar-based.
Just like in hunting.
Why should it be any different?
It would not make sense from MA's point of view.
If you really believe that the claims are already there in the ground, waiting for someone to come and get them, you are very naive.
What is taken into account, however, is where YOU have already dropped.
Your hit rate will be very low if you drop at the same place over and over.
Because, easy again, everything is avatar-based.
And MA doesn't like it much when few people making money chasing MU over and over.
That's why they removed Pyrite from the lootable area.
Since the timer was not enough to prevent the same people getting all the MU there (because most people didn't want to go in lootable anyway)
There were only few people mining this area, so always same getting the Pyrite.
So they removed 90% of Pyrite from lootable.
(Because MA have no idea what Meritocracy is, having worked hard enough to reach a certain level that gives you access to better opportunities, the whole point of a MMO..)
The rarity of resources is a real time in-game balance.
If you don't get any pyrite at a given time, it's because there is already enough of it ingame.
This is probably where the famous "waves" come from, the system simply checks at regular intervals the availability of a resource, and then adjusts its drop rate.
But the pyrite example is a good one, since MA had the wonderful idea to put everything in 2km².
There is ALOT of people mining the same area over and over every single day.
In your theory, your hit rate should be very close to ZERO there.
But that's absolutely not the case, the hit rate is exactly the same as elsewhere.
There are a few things that could be at play. One is that different areas can have different "respawn" rates at different times. The main thing in those tests wasn't to quantify exactly what the rate was, but simply that other miners can affect HR and give a rough idea of how long it takes to recover. Personally, I wait longer than 15 minutes, especially since I have multiple areas I want to check before doubling back.In my experience, If you drop 50 or 100 probe in one area, then wait 15 minutes and you do another run of 50 to 100 probes in that same area, your hit rate and return is significantly worse. However, in the testing done by KOA, he found that if you wait 15 min. after another miner mined, then your hitrate and return is not affected by the other miner. These are the information we have and not sure what to make of this info lol.
If claim is already spawned in the ground, then I would expect that I can mine at the same area after I waited 15 min.
I guess the most important thing is to just wait 15 min if you see another miner nearby lol. For me, wait a day to mine the same area again. I don't really have the time to do 2 runs back to back. But curious of other people's experience of doing a second run after waiting 15 minutes. If the hit rate or tt return get affected.
So yes, as a general rule I prefer the logic of common sense, and constantly questioned reflection, rather than relying on mathematical formulas.
You are functionally saying you disagree with how practically all science research is done.
you decided to all of a sudden delve back into this after this thread was quiet for some time.
I'll ignore the bits before that last comment since distracts from actually addressing actual statistics questions I've been trying to get you to answer.
You're always going to have sample sizes above one in any power calculation. That isn't a meaningful question for any analysis.
If you are so concerned about appropriate sample size
people are scared to do the wrong thing in a game that they have no understanding due to the nature of the coding.Or if the hitrate depends on the overlap or if its simply a set but lower HitRate. Like, maybe MA did implement something like:
That is just it isnt it ? If any form of that statement was true, EU would not be able to exist. Best way I made peds is to avoid doing things that make sense.Come up with and apply some multiplier. This COULD be: if HR = 35, then do this. Else, do another thing.
^^^^^ This one does big boy mining and has hell of sexy vacuum to pull it out! I know cause many of us buy his stuff at Crunk! I do when I need something specific because I feel target mining in this game is begging to lose peds.An area can be unmined and still give bad hit rates. There is other factors to take into account
With all due respect to kingofaces who has tried to gather info and present it. None to ~ Cirrus ~ who just whines and cries like spoilt school girl. An area can be unmined and still give bad hit rates. There is other factors to take into account and I believe this is linked to your avatar. Like if you are on down swing you are most likely get shit returns.
people are scared to do the wrong thing in a game that they have no understanding due to the nature of the coding.
If there a miner there already I never give a damn and some of my best runs were at those very times. I never had a run go worse because I was mining with someone.
Eventually, every permutation happen.
One only need to register to a non real cash casino or real and let a machine spin on auto for 6-10 hours. Same as EU will happen, Path Of Exile, Diablo or any MMO. Hot and Cold mining is just as much of a gimmick as calling a slot machine "hot". Just take 4 friends and TT finder. Go outdoor make 1000 drop each feeding each other coordinates. I will even argue that same coordinate is bs as MA clearly explained the number they show us are rounded, skill/attribute gains are shown only when they reach a minimum relevant to the skill rank. If coordinates have any impact, you can be sure their precision goes so many digits further than we see which will make it impossible to stand in the same exact spot. Karona velocity suit is also a mission with a maze which clearly show in the case with the explosion how much desync between your location and where you really are.
Next time you go mine indoor. Watch a movie and stand there 1-2 hours. If no one has mined go for it! Tell me how often you go something that is different than usual... My guess is that you will see same as me. Only thing it changed is that you afked forever.
That is just it isnt it ? If any form of that statement was true, EU would not be able to exist. Best way I made peds is to avoid doing things that make sense.
Any form of perception that return is fixed would imply that MA track spending. One of the few things they been clear about since the start of this game.
This is why most argument are based on extrapolation of tiny sample in a game that is made by design to confuse any who would try to break it down.
If you took most of EU test posted on forum and showed it to any that work in statistics or even "professional" gamblers, what do you think they would say ?
It's simple... They would say that trying to predict a machine being pregenerated random or not based on such trivial samples is the sure way to live in arrogance and fallacy.
I dont even know if mobs have a ped flow.. As far as I am concerned the different guns % return per kill behave differently on same mob and can even be apparent using uni ammo vs cell ammo. Is the peds in the mob or it's just in the items you have ? Doesnt even need to be in the mob that would be too complicated to balance.. Just put the loot in the items and then the peds return capture some MU if possible on the dna maturity you fight.
Is mining the same ? Crafting ? Would be way easier to balance.
Explosive projectiles have 98% return over time
Lysterium has 98% return over time
Probes have 98% return over time
Armatrix has 98% return over time
Uni ammo has 98% return over time
This provide stability, economical way to make return stable.
It's a system that doesnt cost an arm and a leg to produce.
It's a system that can be easily rebalanced.
It's very portable to an engine upgrade
It has all the quality lacking in all the illogical statements I read all the time.
My theory ? There no ore in the ground, there no loot in mobs and it's all just like crafting.
Yet, while it's obvious for any crafter, the other players who focus on other things seem to have a NEED for MA to have produced a whole other system spending a TON of money for no other reasons than to justify their theorem which get them excited in their underwear regardless of how little it make sense.
What you get as far as items is simply a question of Mob(hunting), location(mining) or bp(crafting).
Based on most theories based on tiny sampling we would have something that happened.
EA, EPIC, SONY games, Activision Blizzard, TENCENT, Ubisoft, Microsoft games and so on games could make a EU clone by spending about 5000$ per activity to pretty much steal the engine... I mean.. How much you think MA would sell their engine for ? Lol.. 5000$ ?
Messi must have bought 15 houses irl and have bought 2 country by now seeing he rolled so many times 5000$. He must know the drop value before he even swing! Right ? That's how he just look at the mobs and decide when he kill one because it will HoF or ATH each time. That's what happen right ?(Come on guys..)
Any form of perception that return is fixed would imply that MA track spending. One of the few things they been clear about since the start of this game.
Yeah! Make sure to base your facts on this. A player with massive experience based on EL...More people need to read this.
Yeah! Make sure to base your facts on this. A player with massive experience based on EL...
If you believe you will get 98% returns from everything regardless of what you do, well, I think you well get disappointed.
For crafting and mining I don't know. For hunting this tread gives some numbers based on actual science and data https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...d-on-actual-data-as-of-march-3rd-2022.286664/
MA said it, the game does not consider your spending. Ask support and it been said a few times on their website.The system tracks every PEC you spend, and every PEC you receive.
If not, the other things you points out could hardly works. (like your "spoiler" for example)
Personal loot-pool imply that the mechanics generating the loot is based on personal performance. As for MA saying several times they dont track spending, I will go look when Im not busy to post some info and link.(one of my last post today)But well, maybe it's me who doesn't understand well.
In that case, please enlighten me by explaining clearly what "personal loot-pool" means.
That's not true! If the loot is tied in any way to items(hunt/mine) and mats/bp consumption(crafting) like I believe. It's easy to see why the return can get way more stable.If the expenses/returns were not tracked precisely, we would see a lot more people with horrible returns (like 25-30%) in the medium/long term, and why not people with 250% returns.
||Simple 1 Conductors|
While those are not the exact MA statements I wanted to bring. They work for now even if I wanted to bring links from entropiauniverse website . That's mostly what I have time for today.So if you have any other official info about this, feel free to link it here.
While vague it clearly indicate volatility. The art of saying "Well, I did good... I can dig a bit more the loot but need to quit in profit standing" <--- The art most people fail at because once in a long while you have a bigger one waiting and people chase that hof too much.
Not dealing the full potential damage with each shot used to negatively affect the "loot value" returns greatly but now primarily negatively affect the "loot composition". For the "skill misses" (not evades) these still do affect your "loot value" returns negatively as they did in the past.
MA said it, the game does not consider your spending. Ask support and it been said a few times on their website.
Personal loot-pool imply that the mechanics generating the loot is based on personal performance. As for MA saying several times they dont track spending, I will go look when Im not busy to post some info and link.(one of my last post today)
A few well players may be able to point it before I get back.
The game not tracking return vs them tracking return of the loot mechanics is different. In fact, in one of the post presenting the upcoming 2.0 loot was explaining how the change in the loot mechanics would bring a more stable loot return and that in general, when the loot algo work as intented the players usually get closer to that. They also said they would monitor the results.But just a quick question;
Early data show positive results from those experiments:
- Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.
- Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.
- Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.
Where these number comes from since you think there's no tracking..?
The game not tracking return vs them tracking return of the loot mechanics is different. In fact, in one of the post presenting the upcoming 2.0 loot was explaining how the change in the loot mechanics would bring a more stable loot return and that in general, when the loot algo work as intented the players usually get closer to that. They also said they would monitor the results.
As far as those number, it's something that been addressed very often that "on average" is what is it. The AVERAGE of all the hunterS. This include the lucky and those that fit in the "suckers" .
This statement is just as is written on the side of all casino machines 97% return on this slot machine. Barely ANYONE get 97%. Most get less, some get close and a few eat the profit. <--- Casino track the return of customers who have a casino card. yet the return is return and the machine you play on doesnt care about spending you did or spending done on that specific machine. It's not unusual to have a 97% machine that returned 90% all it's life and another that gave 105% all it's life. Overtime of course..
But that fact remain that my very account defy any attempt to say that there is a fixed return that is account based.
How so ? When I kill a mob in another game it give me loot of random value based on the strength of my equipment which often require gold to repair at a cost based on my playstyle difficulty. I remember the Diablo II pindle farming days. If anything was volatile it was that mob. Didnt make diablo II illegal because 1 guy found all the good uniques, another found all the fun runes and the other guy just found tears. Diablo II production had to do loot mechanic changes because it was considered gambling. It's still random and they changed how loot work in gaming. Mobs and chest came with pregenerated code keys that went from the rarest and tried to unlock each items until it found the loot it could open. If MA hide behind something to not be called gambling, it sure must be very similar. The whole industry adopted the concept.What you're describing here would make this game illegal.
How so ? When I kill a mob in another game it give me loot of random value based on the strength of my equipment which often require gold to repair at a cost based on my playstyle difficulty. I remember the Diablo II pindle farming days. If anything was volatile it was that mob. Didnt make diablo II illegal because 1 guy found all the good uniques, another found all the fun runes and the other guy just found tears. Diablo II production had to do loot mechanic changes because it was considered gambling. It's still random and they changed how loot work in gaming. Mobs and chest came with pregenerated code keys that went from the rarest and tried to unlock each items until it found the loot it could open. If MA hide behind something to not be called gambling, it sure must be very similar. The whole industry adopted the concept.
1. It's in Sweden where gambling laws are very different. Most of the world agree with the statement "If it feel like gambling, then it is gambling." It's way more complex there.
2. I dont see how this make it less legal than any other rpg where some get more rares than other. It's just here the peds have USD value because they are willing to reimburse peds.