Overmine,re-bomb,mining next to other player?

Thark

Prowler
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Posts
1,403
Location
Berlin
Society
The Prodigy
Avatar Name
Shawn Thark Columbo
Could be, maybe they changed things? We'd easily see this too
 

Cromius69

Mature
Joined
Jun 22, 2021
Posts
26
Or maybe they run amped and get so many nrfs i just run behind them unamped and collect all the pyrites. Never had under 30% run so far i do 500-1000 drops per run
 

kingofaces

Prowler
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Posts
1,195
Location
US
Avatar Name
Tony KingofAces Hans
Hey,

so yeah the idea to use more people but fewer spots was to see if there still is a CHANCE to get a hit, eventho people before you didn't. As in, does MA have some mechanism to reduce the losses at all. When you guys did your tests, I was surprised to still see a 5%ish hit rate for the third player. I can see some low percentage for the second, cuz sometimes you mess up and drop another probe by accident and still find something, so maybe "there was another invisible mob in the area" but it could also be that the lowest hitrate simply is 5%.

The question of:
"Do other miners affect my hitrate?" Seems to have been answered by you, with a clear yes, if within X minutes. (max right now is 15 in your test if I understand correctly? To be narrowed/corrected down if people want)
But the question of:
"Is there a floor for your hit rate, and how does that affect your multis?" Seems to still be in question?

I understand that you like the idea of testing people moving and mining normally but after reading this thread a little bit, it seems the only thing people are unclear on, is if the hit rate just goes down if you mine in an overmined area, but maybe the multipliers go up, so that everybody ends up at the same tt. Or if the hitrate depends on the overlap or if its simply a set but lower HitRate. Like, maybe MA did implement something like:

FIRST_MINER_EVER drops a bomb ->
save miners location, drop = [x=1234, y=1234, range=45, t=1234] with (x,y-coords, range of finder ,and time of drop) ->
hitrate =35% ->
come up with and apply some multiplier.

OR

MinerB drops a bomb ->
check position and radius ->
check relevant drops within last 15mins ->
if no intersect, then hitrate =35%, else hitrate = 5% ->
Come up with and apply some multiplier. This COULD be: if HR = 35, then do this. Else, do another thing.

(Yes, yes, I know this is forum level programming, you know what I mean)

My prediction would be that, NO, your tt doesnt go up when HR goes down. Simply because mining always feels very old school. And back in the day, hunting and stuff was way more unforgiving than today. As far as I know mining doesnt have loot 2.0. And also, people would have figured that out and used it to get hofs, plus it would be kind of annoying to some people to see someone running after them get a global/hof when they just went thru the field. (Even if, now, we dont think thats how that works, but its a perception thing)
I always thought that you wouldnt get anything if you mined the exact spot as someone else before, but maybe there really is a floor for the HR.

So thats why I suggested getting 8 people droping at the same spot, then move 110m or what ever finder range x2 is. If we really do see the 5%ish HR for the 2nd to 8th player, then we can be pretty sure about the HR part of the question above. I dunno if I wanna really test TT-Return. I mean we prolly have pretty good data on normal hit size, so if the tt wants to stay the same by giving bigger multies, then even normal hits should be bigger. I guess we can take a look at that but I kinda doubt it.

Extra credit for reading this wall of text: yes there are a few assumptions in here: all this is independent of people doing the test and their activity history, tools dont affect hitrate at least if they have the same radius, all of caly is homogenious in a hit rate sense, time of day/week/month/lunar cycle/position of alpha centaury relative to mars etc. doesnt matter, I checked that noone mined our testing spot right before us, skills dont matter. If you disagree with those, do your own tests to account for those, and just take mine as a fart in the wind of an uneducated boble dibub.

Cheers
Busy day, so I can’t address everything right now, but basically yes, somewhere between 10-15 minutes things go back to “normal” HR for whatever is in that area.

What it seems like is that claims basically “respawn” very quickly, so that’s how people were getting 5% within 5 minutes. It you wanted to test shorter intervals like you mention though, you would be able to see if there is a gradual increase from 0 minutes or if there is a sort of floor.

The only challenge like I mentioned is catching up to previous miners if the same methodology was followed as before by always pulling up claims. Timing could get off in that case. At the time, I thought that could have been a confounding factor if the claims were left, but for short intervals, it might be worth leaving them until the round of testing is done. The other thing is that someone technically could do the testing on their own since your own mining also affects HR the same way other miners do (still been finding that in personal tests this year). It’s easier and addresses some underlying factors though if multiple people are involved though.
 

wizz

Elite
Joined
May 29, 2005
Posts
4,483
Location
Brabant
Society
The Ministry
Avatar Name
Wizzina Wizz Pale Moon
I am always amazed that people who have been around for years, maybe10 years or more, still talk about RNG... :banghead:

How is it possible not to understand that there is ZERO randomness..?

Pretty sure these people still believe in "luck".
And some of them even think that their choices can influence their results..
Despairing..

Now people knows their return is set and capped in Hunt, they think they can beat the game whith mining..? WTF.

Anyway..
There is no such thing.
The game is designed to let you think so, but it's all wrong.

Your return, and therefore your hit rate, is set in advance, and is avatar-based.
Just like in hunting.
Why should it be any different?
It would not make sense from MA's point of view.

If you really believe that the claims are already there in the ground, waiting for someone to come and get them, you are very naive.

What is taken into account, however, is where YOU have already dropped.
Your hit rate will be very low if you drop at the same place over and over.
Because, easy again, everything is avatar-based.

And MA doesn't like it much when few people making money chasing MU over and over.
That's why they removed Pyrite from the lootable area.
Since the timer was not enough to prevent the same people getting all the MU there (because most people didn't want to go in lootable anyway)
There were only few people mining this area, so always same getting the Pyrite.
So they removed 90% of Pyrite from lootable.
(Because MA have no idea what Meritocracy is, having worked hard enough to reach a certain level that gives you access to better opportunities, the whole point of a MMO..)

The rarity of resources is a real time in-game balance.
If you don't get any pyrite at a given time, it's because there is already enough of it ingame.
This is probably where the famous "waves" come from, the system simply checks at regular intervals the availability of a resource, and then adjusts its drop rate.

But the pyrite example is a good one, since MA had the wonderful idea to put everything in 2km².
There is ALOT of people mining the same area over and over every single day.
In your theory, your hit rate should be very close to ZERO there.
But that's absolutely not the case, the hit rate is exactly the same as elsewhere.

Ok, how does your long story explain the 600k crafting hof?
Was that not luck? :unsure:
 

psyche

Provider
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Posts
197
Location
California, USA
Avatar Name
Maiko pSyCHe Jin-Jay
In my experience, If you drop 50 or 100 probe in one area, then wait 15 minutes and you do another run of 50 to 100 probes in that same area, your hit rate and return is significantly worse. However, in the testing done by KOA, he found that if you wait 15 min. after another miner mined, then your hitrate and return is not affected by the other miner. These are the information we have and not sure what to make of this info lol.
If claim is already spawned in the ground, then I would expect that I can mine at the same area after I waited 15 min.
I guess the most important thing is to just wait 15 min if you see another miner nearby lol. For me, wait a day to mine the same area again. I don't really have the time to do 2 runs back to back. But curious of other people's experience of doing a second run after waiting 15 minutes. If the hit rate or tt return get affected.
 

kingofaces

Prowler
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Posts
1,195
Location
US
Avatar Name
Tony KingofAces Hans
In my experience, If you drop 50 or 100 probe in one area, then wait 15 minutes and you do another run of 50 to 100 probes in that same area, your hit rate and return is significantly worse. However, in the testing done by KOA, he found that if you wait 15 min. after another miner mined, then your hitrate and return is not affected by the other miner. These are the information we have and not sure what to make of this info lol.
If claim is already spawned in the ground, then I would expect that I can mine at the same area after I waited 15 min.
I guess the most important thing is to just wait 15 min if you see another miner nearby lol. For me, wait a day to mine the same area again. I don't really have the time to do 2 runs back to back. But curious of other people's experience of doing a second run after waiting 15 minutes. If the hit rate or tt return get affected.
There are a few things that could be at play. One is that different areas can have different "respawn" rates at different times. The main thing in those tests wasn't to quantify exactly what the rate was, but simply that other miners can affect HR and give a rough idea of how long it takes to recover. Personally, I wait longer than 15 minutes, especially since I have multiple areas I want to check before doubling back.
 

Cromius69

Mature
Joined
Jun 22, 2021
Posts
26
I noticed yesterday after servers crashed i only got lyst and oil for 30 Min from places ive never had lyst before so it seems More rare ores takes longer to spawn after 30 Min i got pyrite and dianthus as normal, might be 30 Min respawn for More rare ores?:unsure:

After restart was first time my run was under 30%. Was 29.2% on 300 drops

Total 7k drops In that area so data still pretty small but alot miners there and i havent seen significant changes on my hr when mining alone elswhere
 
Last edited:

~ Cirrus ~

Prowler
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Posts
1,195

It's nothing personal, but I have a problem with a certain "science" or certain "scientists", especially when this science serves us "indisputable truths", under the only pretext that it is scientific.
(this is what priests used to do in ancient times, and it bothers me a bit)

Science does not mean "truth".

Science is obviously a very interesting and useful tool.
But it's only a tool, that we should not blindly trust.

And reading your speech I got this impression.
You tend to say, it's scientific so it's true (data don't lie)

But if the method is wrong, the result is wrong.

The scientific pathways are usually full of errors.
And besides, the progress of science is generally only the constant revision of the past scientific errors.

So yes, as a general rule I prefer the logic of common sense, and constantly questioned reflection, rather than relying on mathematical formulas.
Now even if that's not the way I work, I respect those for whom it is.
I'm just saying that the scientific method, as a general rule, is not necessarily the one that provides the truth.


Anyway, getting back to the subject of Mining, I think your test is not as "rigorous" as you say for several reasons.

First, you didn't do 30 samples, but only one.
A single run (mini-run) of 30 drops.

So if indeed my proposal of 5000 samples was obviously exaggerated, a test of one single sample is inappropriate.

(And I won't even come back to this Dentists story that you have link. :nurse:
The 2 subjects, what we are talking about here, statistics in a video game, and clinical tests, are absolutely not comparable.
Two completely different subjects, so 2 different methods.)

Everyone knows that in this game, the returns are regulated over the long term.
What you do in your test is a bit like if I go and kill 30 mobs, I end up with a 50% return and I say that the average return that can be expected from hunting is 50%. (which would obviously be wrong)

I mean I don't tell result is wrong.
But you're the one telling it's "rigorous data", "data don't lie" etc..
I'm just saying you can't know for sure whith this test.
How do you know you weren't just in a very bad strike during this 30 drop ?
I mean getting only 1 claim for 10 drop is something that happens sometimes, it's nothing so unusual for me (sadly :rolleyes:)


Then, this test doesn't correspond to what can happen in reality (in real game conditions for an average player)

The testers drop at the EXACT place where the previous tester dropped, at 5 minutes interval. (same coordinates)
But this can almost never happen in game.
It's almost impossible for you to drop by chance in the exact same place as another player within 5 minutes, let alone 30 times in a row, it's simply impossible.

So I think it's a bit of a shame to make a test in a scenario that will never happen to any player anyway..

When talking about "mining in the same area" as other players, it's obviously in multiple conditions which are all very different from the one you tested.


Also, I think that many other parameters could cause the results to vary.
For example, the type of resource available at the location where you are mining.

This test should be done in several different places.
Place whith lot of different ressources types.
Place whith "rares" ressource.
Then Archipelago, where there is only Lyst and OiL available, and where the results could be quite different.


So that's what I meant in a nutshell.
I still think that this test, a single 30 drop run is not so much of "rigorous data".
Even if the result is right, you can't be sure just based on this mini-test.
And above all, does not correspond to what can happen in real game conditions.

It would have to be done in different places, at different times, by different people, in different conditions, and in different configurations, to get what you call "rigorous data".

Also, and this is where common sense comes in;
Most players/miners who don't care who mines around them, or before them, and how over-mined an area is, will tell you that their result doesn't change.

So, I'd be wondering why my result doesn't match what users are experiencing in reality. :unsure:
In this very thread, people are telling you this, but you seem to ignore them and stick to your rigorous and scientific results.

My humble opinion is that as I said, just like hunting, returns are set to a certain % in mining (and the same for crafting or any other activity in EU).
And no matter what happens, you'll find yourself around that return in the long run.
So even if by bad luck it happens (extremely rarely) that you drop in the exact same place as another player within 5 minutes, and even if it does indeed decrease your HR at that moment, it won't change anything in the long run.

And by the way, I don't have the link, but someone has already done the test of dropping 100 times in a row at the same place (without moving at all).
The result was clear: ZERO claims found.
But he also stated that his losses had been "compensated" very quickly in the following runs.


Well, that's the humble "scientific" opinion of a non-scientific mind. :dunce:
The most important thing is that one should not blindly trust some "truths" just because they are "scientific".

Logic and deduction are like a muscle, they need to be practiced.

Anyway, scio me nihil scire.

:tiphat:
 
Last edited:

kingofaces

Prowler
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Posts
1,195
Location
US
Avatar Name
Tony KingofAces Hans
So yes, as a general rule I prefer the logic of common sense, and constantly questioned reflection, rather than relying on mathematical formulas.

It looks like we found the key problem here. You are functionally saying you disagree with how practically all science research is done (you need to rely heavily on this math in practically any research field). Despite that, I'll ask the same straightforward question I asked another.

Where on your personal power calculator are you getting sample size requirements way above 60?
 

~ Cirrus ~

Prowler
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Posts
1,195
You are functionally saying you disagree with how practically all science research is done.

Nope, I definitely did not say that.


You should breathe calmly, take your time.
Put your ego aside before you re-read what I wrote.
And then ask me the right question again;

Where on your personal power calculator are you getting sample size requirements way above 1 ? :)
 

kingofaces

Prowler
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Posts
1,195
Location
US
Avatar Name
Tony KingofAces Hans
Cirrus, I'll ignore the bits before that last comment since distracts from actually addressing actual statistics questions I've been trying to get you to answer. You're always going to have sample sizes above one in any power calculation. That isn't a meaningful question for any analysis.

Now, are you going to answer the question that gets to the heart of the matter? What do you get for power when you use sample sizes of 60 in that example? What is the ideal sample size from that calculator? You could even post a screenshot of it. You wouldn’t even need walls of text to dance around not providing something so simple and to the point, even if you were supposedly pressed for time.

If you are so concerned about appropriate sample size, you have an extremely simple way to show I was entirely wrong while also demonstrating you know a little bit about study design. I may even have some comments that could help if you carefully read recent comments after you decided to all of a sudden delve back into this after this thread was quiet for some time.
 
Last edited:

~ Cirrus ~

Prowler
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Posts
1,195

you decided to all of a sudden delve back into this after this thread was quiet for some time.

Hmm ?
I've been quite busy, and I have much more interesting things to do.
Entropia, and this thread in particular, is really not one of my priorities lately..
So here I had some time to answer.
Sorry, I didn't know there was a time limit to answer you.

You seem to have a lot of time on your hands, and certainly place a lot of emphasis on trying to show everyone here that you are so knowledgeable.
I don't.

I'll ignore the bits before that last comment since distracts from actually addressing actual statistics questions I've been trying to get you to answer.

Ok, so I take time to explain to you in more detail what the problems are, and you say you'll ignore all this.
Very "scientific" method I guess. (y)

You're always going to have sample sizes above one in any power calculation. That isn't a meaningful question for any analysis.

Are you serious ?
Well, for you who have trouble understanding, I repeat a third time..

You only made one run !
Your test sample consists of 1 run of 30 drops.
And not 30 runs of 1 drop...
So to me, it's 1 sample, not 30 nor 60.

But anyway, it's not so much the amount of sample that counts here, but the amount of DIFFERENT tests.

If you are so concerned about appropriate sample size

That's a good one.. :ROFLMAO:
YOU are the one fixated on this "sample size" thing.
You even said that you were going to ignore everything else I mentioned, and then came back to it.

Maybe you should just reread the thread from the beginning, and especially the first post, just to understand what we're talking about.
And that regarding the subject, your test is only a small beginning of a test.

People want to know about mining in overmined areas, in terms of TT (of course) and eventually MU.
If I have 90% return anyway at the end, why would I care if I got 100 claims of 9PED, or 900 claims of 1PED..?


So... yes, your test sample size is too small.
This test should be done several times, in different places, at different times, by different people, in different conditions, and whith different configurations, for the result to be 100% sure.


But most importantly, what I'm saying is that your test does not answer the question at all.
So for all people who don't want to bother with "scientific" data, or check the details (and I totally understand them..), I think your answers can be misleading.

The only question your test could eventually answers is;
"will my HR decrease if I drop all my probes at the exact same coordinates as another miner 5 minutes after him ?"

Sorry, but that doesn't help much, to say the least.. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

kingofaces

Prowler
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Posts
1,195
Location
US
Avatar Name
Tony KingofAces Hans
Cirrus, you keep coming back here pinging me, but I gave you a very straightforward question to answer about what the power calculator says. It's the same thing I'd have a student do if they came to me asking what they need for sample sizes in an experiment. Anyone able to actually address experimental design issues should have been able to run that and post a screenshot in less than 5 minutes. I also gave you a pointed question to address that we actually would ask in research statistics on possible shoddy designs in order to help guide you a bit and avoid a pigeon chess situation.

The fact that you instead post long walls of text on tangents about ego, etc. (which obviously took much more effort and in your apparently limited time) while avoiding a very central and core question is definitely peculiar. If you're not familiar with what is being asked of you, then just say so, but I'm assuming in good faith that you wouldn't be complaining about sample size if that were the case.

So again, what does the power calculator say for sample sizes needed to estimate what the true average would be out at say 5k, 50k, or 500k samples and compare that to another proportion of similar size? You have an easy out there if you concerns are actually well founded, and it would take a whole lot less time and effort than you've been putting in here so far to just show your work instead. No need for theatrics. Just answer the simple question.
 

halftoasted

Provider
Joined
May 17, 2014
Posts
199
Avatar Name
Frank Halftoasted Redhot
Or if the hitrate depends on the overlap or if its simply a set but lower HitRate. Like, maybe MA did implement something like:
people are scared to do the wrong thing in a game that they have no understanding due to the nature of the coding.
If there a miner there already I never give a damn and some of my best runs were at those very times. I never had a run go worse because I was mining with someone.

Eventually, every permutation happen.
One only need to register to a non real cash casino or real and let a machine spin on auto for 6-10 hours. Same as EU will happen, Path Of Exile, Diablo or any MMO. Hot and Cold mining is just as much of a gimmick as calling a slot machine "hot". Just take 4 friends and TT finder. Go outdoor make 1000 drop each feeding each other coordinates. I will even argue that same coordinate is bs as MA clearly explained the number they show us are rounded, skill/attribute gains are shown only when they reach a minimum relevant to the skill rank. If coordinates have any impact, you can be sure their precision goes so many digits further than we see which will make it impossible to stand in the same exact spot. Karona velocity suit is also a mission with a maze which clearly show in the case with the explosion how much desync between your location and where you really are.

Next time you go mine indoor. Watch a movie and stand there 1-2 hours. If no one has mined go for it! Tell me how often you go something that is different than usual... My guess is that you will see same as me. Only thing it changed is that you afked forever.
Come up with and apply some multiplier. This COULD be: if HR = 35, then do this. Else, do another thing.
That is just it isnt it ? If any form of that statement was true, EU would not be able to exist. Best way I made peds is to avoid doing things that make sense.

Any form of perception that return is fixed would imply that MA track spending. One of the few things they been clear about since the start of this game.
This is why most argument are based on extrapolation of tiny sample in a game that is made by design to confuse any who would try to break it down.
If you took most of EU test posted on forum and showed it to any that work in statistics or even "professional" gamblers, what do you think they would say ?
It's simple... They would say that trying to predict a machine being pregenerated random or not based on such trivial samples is the sure way to live in arrogance and fallacy.

I dont even know if mobs have a ped flow.. As far as I am concerned the different guns % return per kill behave differently on same mob and can even be apparent using uni ammo vs cell ammo. Is the peds in the mob or it's just in the items you have ? Doesnt even need to be in the mob that would be too complicated to balance.. Just put the loot in the items and then the peds return capture some MU if possible on the dna maturity you fight.

Is mining the same ? Crafting ? Would be way easier to balance.
Here why:
Explosive projectiles have 98% return over time
Lysterium has 98% return over time
Probes have 98% return over time
Armatrix has 98% return over time
Uni ammo has 98% return over time
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This provide stability, economical way to make return stable.
It's a system that doesnt cost an arm and a leg to produce.
It's a system that can be easily rebalanced.
It's very portable to an engine upgrade
It has all the quality lacking in all the illogical statements I read all the time.

My theory ? There no ore in the ground, there no loot in mobs and it's all just like crafting.
Yet, while it's obvious for any crafter, the other players who focus on other things seem to have a NEED for MA to have produced a whole other system spending a TON of money for no other reasons than to justify their theorem which get them excited in their underwear regardless of how little it make sense.

What you get as far as items is simply a question of Mob(hunting), location(mining) or bp(crafting).

Based on most theories based on tiny sampling we would have something that happened.
EA, EPIC, SONY games, Activision Blizzard, TENCENT, Ubisoft, Microsoft games and so on games could make a EU clone by spending about 5000$ per activity to pretty much steal the engine... I mean.. How much you think MA would sell their engine for ? Lol.. 5000$ ?

Messi must have bought 15 houses irl and have bought 2 country by now seeing he rolled so many times 5000$. He must know the drop value before he even swing! Right ? That's how he just look at the mobs and decide when he kill one because it will HoF or ATH each time. That's what happen right ?(Come on guys..)
 

bigdaddy trim

Stalker
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Posts
1,747
Location
England, Nottingshire
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
bigdaddy longhairedlover trim
With all due respect to kingofaces who has tried to gather info and present it. None to ~ Cirrus ~ who just whines and cries like spoilt school girl. An area can be unmined and still give bad hit rates. There is other factors to take into account and I believe this is linked to your avatar. Like if you are on down swing you are most likely get shit returns.
 

halftoasted

Provider
Joined
May 17, 2014
Posts
199
Avatar Name
Frank Halftoasted Redhot
An area can be unmined and still give bad hit rates. There is other factors to take into account
^^^^^ This one does big boy mining and has hell of sexy vacuum to pull it out! I know cause many of us buy his stuff at Crunk! I do when I need something specific because I feel target mining in this game is begging to lose peds.

Bit of random that bring to say the opposite side of that coin which doesnt exclude the quote but make it whole..

My first real HoF (near 3000p) was on a RT gun at camp Crunk. At that point in the game, I only had deposited 40 strongbox.

That night started with 3 foul globals, I bought the wrong ore at big daddy(lyst) and needed alt so I went to get a 150p+-10p global at crunk on a small 50p run using a f-103. I concluded with a gun that kept getting success and near success with no fail but going at TT loss.
Going a bit angry banana, I randomly put the slider in the middle. 3 clicks later 2955p hof. Gun was [M-Ray 1000 Laser Pistol (L)]. Far from a Armatrix cost even in the mats TT. (Thanks to QueenB for the wonderful BP gift that was filled with mentor luv!)
Extra: Funny part was that a friend kept saying me the day before to stop doing random things because he believe sticking to something work. I simply replied "Chaos theory work better as playing the machine simply give you the odds" He was not angry but a bit annoyed and with the like of "I dont get it, you make it work". Thats the thing... I dont make anything work. Thats how you play the machine! By trying too hard and you simply end up playing the odds which give bad results.

Sometime it's just bad, sometime it's just good. Whatever is the reason, many thread showed that you cannot force it.

XXXX player who shall remain nameless out of respect to his loss went mining for a 4 digit USD run at FOMA because he wanted to force the machine to spit it out. His return wasnt 98%... In fact that player didnt log in for nearly 4 months after that. I do understand as I would want to scream at the game if it happened the same as that player.

YYYY player who shall also remain nameless quit entropia after understanding the game wasnt prepping him a ATH with his near 6000 EURO loss of hitting kong, high MU craft and so on(in less than 6 months..) He was convinced that the return was set on a player basis which is completely false. MA is clear. They do not track spending and that mean anything related to previous action is completely irrelevant. Just like when a slot machine is "about to pay". It's not false but it's not true. The gambler comfort himself saying "Well, this time I missed it". Truth is that statistically there was a high probability of something happening and it always does... It happen that you hit it or it happen that you dont. We just tend to see the "didnt hit it" as a non result which is just the wrong way to think. A fail is an event.

The way my mentor said it is best. "The next click return is what it will be and nothing before will tell you what will be next"







Here a freebie from Frank Halftoasted Redhot:
next time you do your main activity and everything seem good. Go try everything randomly... Maybe everything is good for you tonight. Just a theory... It worked for me"]
 

~ Cirrus ~

Prowler
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Posts
1,195
With all due respect to kingofaces who has tried to gather info and present it. None to ~ Cirrus ~ who just whines and cries like spoilt school girl. An area can be unmined and still give bad hit rates. There is other factors to take into account and I believe this is linked to your avatar. Like if you are on down swing you are most likely get shit returns.

I don't know where you see me crying. (?)

Anyway, it's interesting to see that you agree with me and at same time you denigrate me, I mean from a mental health study perspective.

And by the way, what makes you think that I'm not actually a school girl ? :unsure:
 

tuxxan

Dominant
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Posts
437
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Tuxxen Skeleton Storm
people are scared to do the wrong thing in a game that they have no understanding due to the nature of the coding.
If there a miner there already I never give a damn and some of my best runs were at those very times. I never had a run go worse because I was mining with someone.

Eventually, every permutation happen.
One only need to register to a non real cash casino or real and let a machine spin on auto for 6-10 hours. Same as EU will happen, Path Of Exile, Diablo or any MMO. Hot and Cold mining is just as much of a gimmick as calling a slot machine "hot". Just take 4 friends and TT finder. Go outdoor make 1000 drop each feeding each other coordinates. I will even argue that same coordinate is bs as MA clearly explained the number they show us are rounded, skill/attribute gains are shown only when they reach a minimum relevant to the skill rank. If coordinates have any impact, you can be sure their precision goes so many digits further than we see which will make it impossible to stand in the same exact spot. Karona velocity suit is also a mission with a maze which clearly show in the case with the explosion how much desync between your location and where you really are.

Next time you go mine indoor. Watch a movie and stand there 1-2 hours. If no one has mined go for it! Tell me how often you go something that is different than usual... My guess is that you will see same as me. Only thing it changed is that you afked forever.

That is just it isnt it ? If any form of that statement was true, EU would not be able to exist. Best way I made peds is to avoid doing things that make sense.

Any form of perception that return is fixed would imply that MA track spending. One of the few things they been clear about since the start of this game.
This is why most argument are based on extrapolation of tiny sample in a game that is made by design to confuse any who would try to break it down.
If you took most of EU test posted on forum and showed it to any that work in statistics or even "professional" gamblers, what do you think they would say ?
It's simple... They would say that trying to predict a machine being pregenerated random or not based on such trivial samples is the sure way to live in arrogance and fallacy.

I dont even know if mobs have a ped flow.. As far as I am concerned the different guns % return per kill behave differently on same mob and can even be apparent using uni ammo vs cell ammo. Is the peds in the mob or it's just in the items you have ? Doesnt even need to be in the mob that would be too complicated to balance.. Just put the loot in the items and then the peds return capture some MU if possible on the dna maturity you fight.

Is mining the same ? Crafting ? Would be way easier to balance.
Here why:
Explosive projectiles have 98% return over time
Lysterium has 98% return over time
Probes have 98% return over time
Armatrix has 98% return over time
Uni ammo has 98% return over time
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This provide stability, economical way to make return stable.
It's a system that doesnt cost an arm and a leg to produce.
It's a system that can be easily rebalanced.
It's very portable to an engine upgrade
It has all the quality lacking in all the illogical statements I read all the time.

My theory ? There no ore in the ground, there no loot in mobs and it's all just like crafting.
Yet, while it's obvious for any crafter, the other players who focus on other things seem to have a NEED for MA to have produced a whole other system spending a TON of money for no other reasons than to justify their theorem which get them excited in their underwear regardless of how little it make sense.

What you get as far as items is simply a question of Mob(hunting), location(mining) or bp(crafting).

Based on most theories based on tiny sampling we would have something that happened.
EA, EPIC, SONY games, Activision Blizzard, TENCENT, Ubisoft, Microsoft games and so on games could make a EU clone by spending about 5000$ per activity to pretty much steal the engine... I mean.. How much you think MA would sell their engine for ? Lol.. 5000$ ?

Messi must have bought 15 houses irl and have bought 2 country by now seeing he rolled so many times 5000$. He must know the drop value before he even swing! Right ? That's how he just look at the mobs and decide when he kill one because it will HoF or ATH each time. That's what happen right ?(Come on guys..)

More people need to read this.
 

~ Cirrus ~

Prowler
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Posts
1,195
Any form of perception that return is fixed would imply that MA track spending. One of the few things they been clear about since the start of this game.

I agree whith alot you say, but
I think you are wrong on this crucial point.

The system tracks every PEC you spend, and every PEC you receive. :)

If not, the other things you points out could hardly works. (like your "spoiler" for example)

You say that MA was clear on this, but the only thing I know about this,
is that when the "so precise" question was asked; "Is there a personal loot-pool ?",
MA answered in the simplest terms "No."

So if you have any other official info about this, feel free to link it here.
Because for my part, this question is so vague, that this extremely simple answer means absolutely nothing, and/or brings absolutely no interesting information on the subject.

But well, maybe it's me who doesn't understand well.
In that case, please enlighten me by explaining clearly what "personal loot-pool" means.

I think it's pretty clear that you can answer "No" to this question (way too vague), and that it doesn't mean that your returns are not tracked, and that your returns are not adjusted according to what is tracked.

It just depends on what "personal loot-pool" means to the person asking the question, and to the person answering.
Obviously these two people don't have the same definition.. :sneaky:

If the expenses/returns were not tracked precisely, we would see a lot more people with horrible returns (like 25-30%) in the medium/long term, and why not people with 250% returns.

But this is absolutely not to be expected.
The returns of each player are all more or less equivalent in very narrow proportions. (of course taking in account skills and efficiency for a small variation)

Some will say; The law of large numbers... :rolleyes:
I don't believe it for a second (if it may have been true before 2.0, at least it's not anymore)

As a general rule, when more than one solution seems valid for a problem.
The correct one is often the simplest one.
 
Last edited:

miathan

Dominant
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Posts
399
Location
Sweden
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Alindrina Alli Golden

~ Cirrus ~

Prowler
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Posts
1,195
Yeah! Make sure to base your facts on this. A player with massive experience based on EL...
If you believe you will get 98% returns from everything regardless of what you do, well, I think you well get disappointed.

For crafting and mining I don't know. For hunting this tread gives some numbers based on actual science and data https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...d-on-actual-data-as-of-march-3rd-2022.286664/

I like raw data.
Jhereg usually provide somme good ones indeed.

How data are subsequently interpreted is typically where the problems begin.. :)
 
Last edited:

halftoasted

Provider
Joined
May 17, 2014
Posts
199
Avatar Name
Frank Halftoasted Redhot
The system tracks every PEC you spend, and every PEC you receive. :)

If not, the other things you points out could hardly works. (like your "spoiler" for example)
MA said it, the game does not consider your spending. Ask support and it been said a few times on their website.

Because everything is good for you 1 day doesnt mean it track or not. It just mean that day the "Seeds" surrounding you are favorable. Be it attached the aunique ID of your gears, your avatar or whatever cause loot. It doesnt need tracking. My account wouldnt exist if tracking existed. I wouldnt be able to have as many peds as I do with any sort of tracking. The ep1 scandal that happened with always profit after adding shrap to loot would not have existed either if tracking existed. MA said it and many facts show it.
But well, maybe it's me who doesn't understand well.
In that case, please enlighten me by explaining clearly what "personal loot-pool" means.
Personal loot-pool imply that the mechanics generating the loot is based on personal performance. As for MA saying several times they dont track spending, I will go look when Im not busy to post some info and link.(one of my last post today)

A few well players may be able to point it before I get back.

If the expenses/returns were not tracked precisely, we would see a lot more people with horrible returns (like 25-30%) in the medium/long term, and why not people with 250% returns.
That's not true! If the loot is tied in any way to items(hunt/mine) and mats/bp consumption(crafting) like I believe. It's easy to see why the return can get way more stable.

Let's take crafting because it make things simpler
Blueprint: ArMatrix LR-30 (L) Blueprint (L)

1663Micro.jpg
Standard Compressor
6​
0.16​
0.23​
143.0​
Entropia Universe
1911Micro.jpg
Standard Rod
6​
0.17​
0.23​
136.0​
Entropia Universe
1881Micro.jpg
Standard Matrix
6​
0.31​
0.34​
111.0​
Entropia Universe
1717Micro.jpg
Simple 1 Conductors
6​
1.80​
1.98​
110.0​
Entropia Universe
1510Micro.jpg
Durulium Ingot
1​
2.40​
2.69​
112.0​
Entropia Universe
1252Micro.jpg
Pearl Sand
1​
1.92​
2.40​
125.0​
Entropia Universe
6637Micro.jpg
Nanocube
324​
3.24​
3.24​
100.0​
Entropia Universe
1735Micro.jpg
Metal Mountings
5​
3.00​
3.90​
130.0​
Entropia Universe

Now if I said that return is in what you consume and MU items are based on the bp. This make perfect sense and balance things out.
If standard compressor, rod, matrix, conductors, ingot, ect all have their own wave of return that give 97% over time.
It become easy to see why the in game engine is so solid at producing a stable loot return.

After all if one of them roll 110%, 10%, 80% and so on.. It average to stability in loot. Tracking make no sense. I know people who played thousands USD on recycles in a few hours and go crapped on. At some point it mean they could do anything and just profit to get back. Many tried to force the machine and usually it's the random after which benefit. I could say same for hunting and mining. In fact there a thread about the argau fen mace where someone lost his shirt over it and was sure it would pay. It's a old thread but it was in 2.0.

The MU that drop ? Well it's based on the bp. Being the gun that is made or the bps that it drop and the range of levels. It's just like hunting a different maturity that give a bit of the same but some difference if it's in the same category.

I myself can tell you Im in the very high % return over time. What do I do right ? Or properly wrong ? Im not 100% sure... I just play the game with a bit of chaos theory because playing the odds is becoming the odds. That's a theory sure! But it seem it work for me... Look at my biggest hof in EU. I will only say this. My biggest hofS are ALL bigger than what I put in this game. I wont post this often but here:

ttttttt.png


Just looking at my profession skills, the hofs I have and even forgetting that as a Rocktropian many globals dont even register...
We can tell right away that I cannot have spent nearly enough to have any of my so called hof and not be on top of the return logic.
Just remember what I said even if some may not believe me... When I got my first hof I only had deposited 40$. Doesnt mean I didnt depo more or will never depo or that I even make peds per hours to give envy to anyone with a job... If tracking existed. My account wouldnt exist. Thats all I feel I need to say. Now, it's up to you to decide if you are willing to believe me or at least give me the benefit of the doubt that I may be truthful with you.
As I see I didnt show my total skill points... Its 134k

Conclusion: Im just a big noob who cannot have spent nearly enough to have that many hof if tracking really existed.
 

halftoasted

Provider
Joined
May 17, 2014
Posts
199
Avatar Name
Frank Halftoasted Redhot
So if you have any other official info about this, feel free to link it here.
While those are not the exact MA statements I wanted to bring. They work for now even if I wanted to bring links from entropiauniverse website . That's mostly what I have time for today.

Charlie|MindArk said:
The amount of turnover isn't very relevant to the average return or volatility in return for any individual player. To reach a stable average return it's really the amount of loot instances
While vague it clearly indicate volatility. The art of saying "Well, I did good... I can dig a bit more the loot but need to quit in profit standing" <--- The art most people fail at because once in a long while you have a bigger one waiting and people chase that hof too much.
I dont want stable return and it worked for me. I also know how to let MA take a big global on my ped card without crying/pushing the loot trying to fetch my 98%.

Less relevant but showing that unmaxed weapons give same return % on the spending. This cling a lot to my theory that the loot return is in the decaying items/ammo/armor/chip/finder/mats(crafting). Not the mob.
Charlie|MindArk said:
There is no separate added "punishment" for not using a maxed weapon. The downside of using non-maxed weapons is still just a consequence of not doing the full damage potential and missing a few extra shots.
{...}
Not dealing the full potential damage with each shot used to negatively affect the "loot value" returns greatly but now primarily negatively affect the "loot composition". For the "skill misses" (not evades) these still do affect your "loot value" returns negatively as they did in the past.
 

~ Cirrus ~

Prowler
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Posts
1,195
MA said it, the game does not consider your spending. Ask support and it been said a few times on their website.

Personal loot-pool imply that the mechanics generating the loot is based on personal performance. As for MA saying several times they dont track spending, I will go look when Im not busy to post some info and link.(one of my last post today)

A few well players may be able to point it before I get back.

Yep, I'll wait for an offical statment link of MA saying clearly system DON'T track spent/return.
Because if I ask support, I'd have the same answer they always reply: "We can't discuss loot mechanics" :)

So let's wait and see..

I'll proly answer the rest later, because lately I feel I spend more time on forum than ingame enjoying my 90% return.. :love:


But just a quick question;

MA said:

Early data show positive results from those experiments:
  • Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.
  • Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.
  • Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.
https://www.entropiauniverse.com/bulletin/buzz/2017/09/27/Developer-Notes--14---Loot-2.0-Update.xml?

Where these number comes from since you think there's no tracking..? :unsure:
 

halftoasted

Provider
Joined
May 17, 2014
Posts
199
Avatar Name
Frank Halftoasted Redhot
But just a quick question;

MA said:

Early data show positive results from those experiments:

  • Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.

  • Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.

  • Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.
https://www.entropiauniverse.com/bulletin/buzz/2017/09/27/Developer-Notes--14---Loot-2.0-Update.xml?

Where these number comes from since you think there's no tracking..? :unsure:
The game not tracking return vs them tracking return of the loot mechanics is different. In fact, in one of the post presenting the upcoming 2.0 loot was explaining how the change in the loot mechanics would bring a more stable loot return and that in general, when the loot algo work as intented the players usually get closer to that. They also said they would monitor the results.

As far as those number, it's something that been addressed very often that "on average" is what is it. The AVERAGE of all the hunterS. This include the lucky and those that fit in the "suckers" :(.

This statement is just as is written on the side of all casino machines 97% return on this slot machine. Barely ANYONE get 97%. Most get less, some get close and a few eat the profit. <--- Casino track the return of customers who have a casino card. yet the return is return and the machine you play on doesnt care about spending you did or spending done on that specific machine. It's not unusual to have a 97% machine that returned 90% all it's life and another that gave 105% all it's life. Overtime of course..

But that fact remain that my very account defy any attempt to say that there is a fixed return that is account based.
 

~ Cirrus ~

Prowler
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Posts
1,195
The game not tracking return vs them tracking return of the loot mechanics is different. In fact, in one of the post presenting the upcoming 2.0 loot was explaining how the change in the loot mechanics would bring a more stable loot return and that in general, when the loot algo work as intented the players usually get closer to that. They also said they would monitor the results.

As far as those number, it's something that been addressed very often that "on average" is what is it. The AVERAGE of all the hunterS. This include the lucky and those that fit in the "suckers" :(.

This statement is just as is written on the side of all casino machines 97% return on this slot machine. Barely ANYONE get 97%. Most get less, some get close and a few eat the profit. <--- Casino track the return of customers who have a casino card. yet the return is return and the machine you play on doesnt care about spending you did or spending done on that specific machine. It's not unusual to have a 97% machine that returned 90% all it's life and another that gave 105% all it's life. Overtime of course..

But that fact remain that my very account defy any attempt to say that there is a fixed return that is account based.

I don't think we're going anywhere here.
What you're describing here would make this game illegal.

And yes, of course I know it's an average, so that means tracking ALL the players to make it an average.

But ok, let's say they tracked just "for science" over a short period of time, then stopped.
I'll still wait for an official message explaining that it's not tracked, just to be sure.. ;)
 

halftoasted

Provider
Joined
May 17, 2014
Posts
199
Avatar Name
Frank Halftoasted Redhot
What you're describing here would make this game illegal.
How so ? When I kill a mob in another game it give me loot of random value based on the strength of my equipment which often require gold to repair at a cost based on my playstyle difficulty. I remember the Diablo II pindle farming days. If anything was volatile it was that mob. Didnt make diablo II illegal because 1 guy found all the good uniques, another found all the fun runes and the other guy just found tears. Diablo II production had to do loot mechanic changes because it was considered gambling. It's still random and they changed how loot work in gaming. Mobs and chest came with pregenerated code keys that went from the rarest and tried to unlock each items until it found the loot it could open. If MA hide behind something to not be called gambling, it sure must be very similar. The whole industry adopted the concept.

1. It's in Sweden where gambling laws are very different. Most of the world agree with the statement "If it feel like gambling, then it is gambling." It's way more complex there.
2. I dont see how this make it less legal than any other rpg where some get more rares than other. It's just here the peds have USD value because they are willing to reimburse peds.
 

~ Cirrus ~

Prowler
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Posts
1,195
How so ? When I kill a mob in another game it give me loot of random value based on the strength of my equipment which often require gold to repair at a cost based on my playstyle difficulty. I remember the Diablo II pindle farming days. If anything was volatile it was that mob. Didnt make diablo II illegal because 1 guy found all the good uniques, another found all the fun runes and the other guy just found tears. Diablo II production had to do loot mechanic changes because it was considered gambling. It's still random and they changed how loot work in gaming. Mobs and chest came with pregenerated code keys that went from the rarest and tried to unlock each items until it found the loot it could open. If MA hide behind something to not be called gambling, it sure must be very similar. The whole industry adopted the concept.

1. It's in Sweden where gambling laws are very different. Most of the world agree with the statement "If it feel like gambling, then it is gambling." It's way more complex there.
2. I dont see how this make it less legal than any other rpg where some get more rares than other. It's just here the peds have USD value because they are willing to reimburse peds.

Wait...
Sorry I'm kind of tired, so I just don't know how I didn't think about that before..

Found this old support of myself:

-----
Hi Cirrus,

Thank you for your support case.

We apologize for the inconvenience but this is not a service we provide, in rare occasions we will give players their return for a certain period of time and we will do so for you in this inquiry.

During 2018 so far you have a hunting return of 94,35% and a mining return of 116,49%.

Take care and best of luck.

Kind regards,
xxx | Entropia Universe Support
-----

End of story.

CASE CLOSED, your return are tracked. o_O

(I was right !! yeah I tell it cause nobody else will :sneaky:)

By the way there is some others of these messages on the forum.


🛑 Message to people who read this;

No need to spam support asking for your return, they usually don't tell it.
I was just "lucky" at that time getting answer.
 
Top