Pet Math - Cost of tricks and experience gain

tamlin

Prowler
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Posts
1,151
Location
Somewhere in EU
Avatar Name
tamlin
Please note updates at end of post.

The data was collected with a Bristlehog with 100% Affection and Mood, and 99%-100% Focus. This is important to know, as at lower Focus/Affection/Mood levels the pet gains less experience for the tricks performed, while the cost remains constant. F.ex. at 30% Focus, the Sit action gave only 1.9 Experience, while at 100% Focus it gave 5.4 Experience.

PEC
Cost Exp. Action
0.334 0.7 Greet
0.835 1.8 Dance
1,700 3.6 Bow
2.500 5.2 Roll over
2.600 5.4 Sit

Please note that these are the only observable (display) values available to us, why cost may be around +/- 0.5 mPEC, and Experience gain may be +/- 0.05 Experience points.

Focus consumption is harder to assess, as Focus is an asymptotic display value (f.ex. it took 2 minutes to regen focus from 98 to 99, but after 11 minutes it hadn't yet rolled over to 100% - more on this here). Suffice it to say that more costly tricks consume more Focus. As an example, I have observer Sit make Focus go from 99% to both 90% and 87%, at 98% it dropped to 79%, and at 79% it dropped to 30%. Regeneration of focus from 30% to 99% takes approximately 25 minutes.

With this data, we can also derive the most eco tricks to perform to skill our pet, but keep in mind this does not include the regeneration time needed (and the accompanying tiny experience gains).

Exp/PEC Trick
2.155689 Dance
2.117647 Bow
2.095808 Greet
2.080000 Roll over
2.076923 Sit

[EDIT: Exp/PEC updated for Greet. Was using a stale value from a pet without full Affection and Mood]

Update 2014-11-01
With access to a different pet, where it has been possible to better see the decay and Experience values due to less rounding errors, current data suggests the cost of tricks is a function of max tt of the pet, with the following divisors.
  • 1200 Greet
  • 480 Dance
  • 240 Bow
  • 160 Roll over
  • 150 Sit
Example: Bristlehog max tt = 4 PED. Bow should cost 400 (PEC) / 240 = 1 2/3 PEC. Due to rounding errors it shows up as 1.7 PEC. Daikiba Ancient Strong: Dance = 1600 / 480 = 3 1/3 PEC. This so far correlates with empirical data.

It could therefore also be that Exp./PEC at 100% Pet Focus, Affection and Mood, is to be 2.01 for all tricks (very close to observed data with the Daikiba on Greet and Dance actions), but due to rounding errors in the display (or even internally int the calculations) it displays a large variation in gain/cost for puny pets. This however requires further study and validation.
 
Last edited:

MarieWoodell

Stalker
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Posts
1,635
Location
Bath, England
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Marie Elf Woodell
The data was collected with a Bristlehog with 100% Affection and Mood, and 99%-100% Focus. This is important to know, as at lower Focus/Affection/Mood levels the pet gains less experience for the tricks performed, while the cost remains constant.
This is extremely interesting to know as I tried to test the cost of the trick verses xp gain by leveling a hog from lvl 1 to 2 by both keeping the focus above 95% and by running the focus down to 13% with a few tricks, and then letting it regenerate just enough to perform a single trick again and noticed no discernable cost difference just that it was slower to gain the xp. Could it be that only hitting the 13% focus barrier the pet seems to have wastes money?

Exp/PEC Trick
2.155689 Dance
2.117647 Bow
2.080000 Roll over
2.076923 Sit
1.497006 Greet
This part is extrememly helpful, thank you. I'd already worked out that Greet was pretty much a waste of time and it's good to know it's a waste of money compared to the others as well. Interesting that it then gets less economical. Implying that the cheapest way to lvl a pet is to use Dance and only when the focus is at 99% (or 100), although the fastest may well still be to use the newest trick.
 

tamlin

Prowler
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Posts
1,151
Location
Somewhere in EU
Avatar Name
tamlin
Could it be that only hitting the 13% focus barrier the pet seems to have wastes money?
To repeat from the initial post:
tamlin said:
at 30% Focus, the Sit action gave only 1.9 Experience, while at 100% Focus it gave 5.4 Experience.
Yes, doing tricks at less than full or at least almost full Focus is indeed the same as burning money.

Implying that the cheapest way to lvl a pet is to use Dance and only when the focus is at 99% (or 100), although the fastest may well still be to use the newest trick.
Those are indeed my observations and conslusions too.
 

Dan59

Stalker
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Posts
1,942
Location
Slovenia
Society
dust
Avatar Name
Dan Dan Petrov
Take in consideration that VU15 pets are so called puny mobs.
Puny pet need about 400 nutrios to get him to full.
Future biger pets will be a lot more hungry.

Even now is significant difference with full energy of old pets.
And also consumption when prerforming tricks.

Daikiba stalker need 1600 nutrios to get him to full now for example.

So i think MA will change this.
If not cant see acceptable costs to skill up some future big combat pet.
 

tamlin

Prowler
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Posts
1,151
Location
Somewhere in EU
Avatar Name
tamlin
Puny pet need about 400 nutrios to get him to full.
[...]
Daikiba stalker need 1600 nutrios to get him to full now for example.

So i think MA will change this.
If not cant see acceptable costs to skill up some future big combat pet.
It would indeed become insanely costly to skill up larger pets like this. On the other hand, that's how it is for avatars too, and it's what MA have always done - make it exponentially more expensive to reach higher levels. With that in mind, it may be intentional that it should cost 10k PED (<- completely made up number) to skill a Daikiba to level 10. Even if that could be disappointing, at least it would be - sadly enough - consistent.
 

MarieWoodell

Stalker
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Posts
1,635
Location
Bath, England
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Marie Elf Woodell
Take in consideration that VU15 pets are so called puny mobs.
Puny pet need about 400 nutrios to get him to full.
Future biger pets will be a lot more hungry.

Even now is significant difference with full energy of old pets.
And also consumption when prerforming tricks.

Daikiba stalker need 1600 nutrios to get him to full now for example.

So i think MA will change this.
If not cant see acceptable costs to skill up some future big combat pet.
We're also yet to see what the battle side of things will be like and if the pets will gain experience from fighting. It could well be a cheaper way to gain xp. Of course we also don't know exactly what will happen to the losing creature either.
 

Kombinator

Marauder
Joined
May 15, 2006
Posts
6,706
Society
CCCP
Avatar Name
Velikii Komby Kombinator
At 13% focus it takes about 400 clicks to level up a daiki and consumes about 5K nutrios.

Pretty steady as far as different levels go, have not noticed a cost increase yet.
 

tamlin

Prowler
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Posts
1,151
Location
Somewhere in EU
Avatar Name
tamlin
At 13% focus it takes about 400 clicks to level up a daiki and consumes about 5K nutrios.
I hope you realize that's the worst way to level up a pet, as you get WAY less Experience per nutrio than you'd get if the Focus was a 100%? I'd estimate you overpay maybe 8 to 10 times compared to "optimal" training conditions.

Not to mention the training, by this same account, is perhaps 6-7 times as slow.
 

Akbar

Banned
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Posts
2,346
Society
ViaDolorosa
Few other datas you can combine with your own...

Focus :

under 67-68%, the focus increase by 2% each 30 seconds.
I noticed an increase by 25 seconds, but this happened only 1 time.
* I did not bring my pet near the 13%, so the %/time increase "can be" bigger...

Over 68%, you get variations of 1% or 2% each 30 seconds.

Over 90%, the reload time per 1% can take far more time like you said Tamlin.

Else to that, each Bow at 99% gave an XP increase of 1%, (Focus % cost varies between 1 to 7%)
while I "saw" 1% increase for 3 Dance.
 

tamlin

Prowler
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Posts
1,151
Location
Somewhere in EU
Avatar Name
tamlin
Thanks for the testing, Akbar.

For the actual Experience gain from an action (Level.XP is only a rough estimate display representation of the Experience), Dismiss the pet, select Item->Properties and check its Experience value, spawn it, do action, Dismiss, and check Experience again.

The formula to convert between Level.XP <-> Experience is documented in
Pet Math - Level vs. Experience .

Your post however did kick me to add a graph over how Focus regenerates over time to
Pet Math - Regeneration time, cost and Experience gain. Expect it to be up within a few minutes.

Thanks.
 

Droops

Elite
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Posts
3,474
Location
The Netherlands
Society
The Gladiators
Avatar Name
Mr.Droops Rob
If not cant see acceptable costs to skill up some future big combat pet.
Even the Ancient ones are costly to lvl up.
Got a Snable Strong closing in on lvl 6, but i might sell it and get myself a rl elefant for in my garden since thats way cheaper :silly2:
 

Akbar

Banned
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Posts
2,346
Society
ViaDolorosa
Can someone post the coords for bristlehogs puny please ?

MA's info are as clear as usual : near the green tree and the blue river...

---

Even the Ancient ones are costly to lvl up.
Got a Snable Strong closing in on lvl 6, but i might sell it and get myself a rl elefant for in my garden since thats way cheaper :silly2:
 
Last edited:

mastermesh

Mutated
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Posts
15,111
Location
Billy Bar
Society
the Ministry
Avatar Name
Maria Mesh
Thanks for the info in this thread. I'll stop trying to do tricks when focus isn't high, lol.

Can someone post the coords for bristlehogs puny please ?
I'm not on Calypso, so not sure how accurate it is but here's a link to where they are supposed to be per what MA says:
http://www.entropiaplanets.com/threads/vu15-and-planet-content-releases.11769/

Added Bristlehog Puny spawns to the following locations:

Minopolis
Nymphtown
Ashi
Osere
Camp Icarus
Port Atlantis
Cape Corinth
Fort Ithaca
On Arkadia, the info over there seems fairly accurate... Tamed 12 nusul puny so far. Only one of them is up to level 2 so far. It looks like 10 nutrio = roughly 3% increase in energy. Also, you can't 'drop' a pet deed until you up it's tt value to more than one pec... i.e. feed it 2 nutrio as one is not enough to do that. I'm not sure if that 'drop' rule applies to shops/booths or not. A shop owner will need to figure that one out (I think the rules are different for shopkeepers, shops, and booths, and apartments or other estates... or they used to be when I owned estates a long while back).

Currently, you cannot auction pet deeds. However, I'm hoping future vus will remedy that.

If there are any shop owners reading this thread that are interested in setting up some trade deals to supply your shop with pet deeds, give me a shout out. I don't deposit a ton, but am starting to deposit some, and have an UL viper whip ready to tame many puny mobs, and possibly larger mobs down the road. :)

Any crafters looking for pets, look me up too. I'm going to start a blueprint for pet deed trade service I think so that I get a few more bps in my nonexistent theoretical blueprint books (stopped carrying the actual books since the system doesn't require them anymore).
 
Last edited:

AxeMurderer

Elite
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Posts
2,912
Society
Massive Dynamic
Avatar Name
Wand AxeMurderer Silva
Tonight I can try putting pet in the shop and see how it works
 

whiteknut

Elite
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Posts
3,049
Location
Estonia
Society
Vikings of Calypso
Avatar Name
Snablesnot Male Young
Tonight I can try putting pet in the shop and see how it works
Been there done that. The puny pets doesnt sell. Only Ancient Strong ones sell, had few of them in my shop for sale, one sold, others sold p2p.
 

Akbar

Banned
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Posts
2,346
Society
ViaDolorosa
I'm not on Calypso, so not sure how accurate it is but here's a link to where they are supposed to be per what MA says:
http://www.entropiaplanets.com/threads/vu15-and-planet-content-releases.11769/
I knew when the new VU appeared that locations were given on the login page, so this is the first thing I did, go check there without needing someone else's help.

I first went to osere, but all i found there was kerberos and caudatergus... no puny bristlehog.
(i did a good fly over the whole area with my sleipnir).

Then, after pm'ing a friend, i was told there are close to the Ashi teleporter,
so I went there, and same covered the area with my sleipnir without find a one,
all I saw was big atrax & big atrox + Steelbirds elite.

Hopefully, another friend told me they could be found near the minopolis teleporter,
where finally... pfffewww that was hard, i could find the tamable bristlehogs puny !
 

MarieWoodell

Stalker
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Posts
1,635
Location
Bath, England
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Marie Elf Woodell
I knew when the new VU appeared that locations were given on the login page, so this is the first thing I did, go check there without needing someone else's help.

I first went to osere, but all i found there was kerberos and caudatergus... no puny bristlehog.
(i did a good fly over the whole area with my sleipnir).

Then, after pm'ing a friend, i was told there are close to the Ashi teleporter,
so I went there, and same covered the area with my sleipnir without find a one,
all I saw was big atrax & big atrox + Steelbirds elite.

Hopefully, another friend told me they could be found near the minopolis teleporter,
where finally... pfffewww that was hard, i could find the tamable bristlehogs puny !
There's also quite a good spawn on the hill east of the main building at camp Icarus.
 

tamlin

Prowler
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Posts
1,151
Location
Somewhere in EU
Avatar Name
tamlin
First post updated with additional data.
 

antonioliveira

Prowler
Joined
Feb 15, 2009
Posts
1,079
Location
Gaia, Portugal
Society
Utopia
Avatar Name
Aleph Levi Benzait
With this data, we can also derive the most eco tricks to perform to skill our pet, but keep in mind this does not include the regeneration time needed (and the accompanying tiny experience gains).

Exp/PEC Trick
2.155689 Dance
2.117647 Bow
2.095808 Greet
2.080000 Roll over
2.076923 Sit
Did anyone test if this applies to the new pets?
 

Venture Bros

Banned
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Posts
2,526
Society
Death Lords
Avatar Name
Thaddeus Rusty Venture
This thread deserves and needs a bump, it should be at the top of the taming section and is too hard to find. Hell all of tamlins threads should be stickied.
 
Top