Please don't add items based on hearsay to Entropedia!

remontoire

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Please do not add items into Entropedia based on just something you read somewhere. Things that have not looted, or have not been seen being worn / used by avatars (use scanner), or that cannot be ordered or that you cannot screenshot in some other way all fall under this. These can easily turn out to be just urban legends, somebody mis-remembering or misinterpreting things or just things that ended up not being implemented (you don't see a "meat extractor" under misc tools in Entropedia).

Case in point - Modified Pixie. We don't even know for certain it will be called that, and we know by now the stats will be different. Never mind that if it really will be available from graduating mentoring, the source will be mentoring, not event, as stated.

Thank you for your co-operation.
 

mastermesh

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Please do not add items into Entropedia based on just something you read somewhere. Things that have not looted, or have not been seen being worn / used by avatars (use scanner), or that cannot be ordered or that you cannot screenshot in some other way all fall under this. These can easily turn out to be just urban legends, somebody mis-remembering or misinterpreting things or just things that ended up not being implemented (you don't see a "meat extractor" under misc tools in Entropedia).

Case in point - Modified Pixie. We don't even know for certain it will be called that, and we know by now the stats will be different. Never mind that if it really will be available from graduating mentoring, the source will be mentoring, not event, as stated.

Thank you for your co-operation.

Uh, there's this thing in entropedia called 'edit'... you might want to check it out some time.;)
 

Ace Flyster

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Uh, there's this thing in entropedia called 'edit'... you might want to check it out some time.;)

Lol, you are all heart arent you. I wouldnt like to have to spend my spare time trawling through a million edits to get the info correct!

In fact i think you should, considering your post! Enjoy wasting your life editing incorrect values on entropedia

Rgds

Ace
 

remontoire

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Uh, there's this thing in entropedia called 'edit'... you might want to check it out some time.;)

While I edit and add things to Entropedia far less often than I would really like to or consider sufficient, I don't think that in instances like this simply deleting the entries would be the right course of action. Getting a delete / add war would not serve any useful purpose.
 

M Rufen Power

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Rem it was me who added the mod pixie. You can always edit it in future like I will when it arrives. Reason for doing this? I wanted to see if with its current stats it was an eco set like gnome or warrior. Plus it's not really hearsay, KIM has said the new armor coming is called modified pixie just stats will have changed now from what I hear. But I'll take your advice for future if this really has disturbed your armor adviser readings, thanks :).
 
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Oleg

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Entropedia has gone downhill a lot recently due to people adding bad info.

I'm still waiting for Chazlow to delete the dozens of non-existent BPs he added (as discussed here).

If you're not certain if something is correct, don't add/edit it. If you're making an approximation in categories where this is appropriate (e.g. mob damage types or max damage), add a note to say so.
 
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MIND

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all i can say is...

oki :)
 

RobBuona

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Rem it was me who added the mod pixie. You can always edit it in future like I will when it arrives. Reason for doing this? I wanted to see if with its current stats it was an eco set like gnome or warrior. Plus it's not really hearsay, KIM has said the new armor coming is called modified pixie just stats will have changed now from what I hear. But I'll take your advice for future if this really has disturbed your armor adviser readings, thanks :).
Kim also said that the brief removal of the TPs from FOMA/CP to Calypso was intentional. :) Even if he wasn't lying, MindArk changed their minds on that issue pretty quickly. This Mod Pixie hasn't even been released yet, so no reason to know it ever will exist until someone actually has it.
 

Jimmy B

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Yeah, bad data in Entropedia is, um, bad. If someone sees missing data they might add it, less likely people will check existing data is correct and fix it.

I'm sure Mark meant well adding the Mod Pixie, but at the same time until it's in-game we won't know for sure if it'll ever appear. Not everything MA says will happen actually happens.
 

narfi

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Entropedia has gone downhill a lot recently due to people adding bad info.

And its only going to get worse.

In order for it to get better there needs to be a group of old school data collectors nurturing the next generation and helping them enter everything correctly.
Instead we have rude elitists who remove any motivation that generation might have had to contribute to the community.

It is intimidating enough trying to lean and add stuff to the wiki without worrying about being sent to the gas chamber if anyone finds out.

I know that has really taken away any of my motivation.

narfi
 

Oleg

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Instead we have rude elitists who remove any motivation that generation might have had to contribute to the community.

I don't see any rudeness in this thread, I see only polite requests not to add incorrect info and some explanation of the right way to do things. Precisely what you're asking for in fact.

It's a shame you're not prepared to contribute data, I'm sure you could help a lot with the Rocktropia info which is rather lacking at the moment.
 
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narfi

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I don't necessarily mean this thread, I mean the overall feeling I get about entropedia on this forum.

I don't remember seeing helpful threads ever discussing it, only scolding threads. (some more polite than others)

I know I started entering stuff for Rocktropia when I was looting discovery blueprints last year and it was a huge mess which I tried to help clean up. But I got scolded (dont remember by who) because I deleted or entered stats for a dragon plate (L) bp over one without an (L) (I am still not convinced there ever was an ul one)

So when you have things like that, and this, and the thread you linked (and I think others but maybe just my mind playing tricks on me) all having a some what negative vibe, and 0 recent nurturing threads that I have seen, you can understand what I am trying to say.

narfi
 

Oleg

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There are occasionally threads and posts asking for help about how to enter info correctly on Entropedia and they usually get answered. It's hard to help unless someone asks a question.

I don't remember (and may never have known about) the issue with the Dragon plates, but I guess the root of that problem was in NDS' apparent inability to name blueprints in the standard way, which makes it impossible to tell from the name alone what is L and what isn't. That obviously makes things difficult so I can see why there might be a problem but I guess it probably wasn't your fault so if someone was angry with you they were probably directing it to the wrong place.
 

Jimmy B

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Instead we have rude elitists who remove any motivation that generation might have had to contribute to the community.

There's no rude, and no elitism. And the thread starter appears to have joined EU, or at least PCF/EF, about 18 months ago so he's hardly an EU old-timer.

The fact is, bad data is much less likely to get fixed than missing data. And the new generation you seem to want us to treat with kid gloves could end up making costly mistakes as a result of that bad data. Criticism and rudeness are not synonyms.
 

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Oleg, this is the last time I will say this.

The BP slots exist in the BP books - so they were added to complete the BP book listings.

You do not run entropedia, and I do not add info to entropedia to serve you or edit it at your whim.

The reason the community has the ability to edit entropedia is for its continual development. Things will be removed, some things added. Mistakes will be made and corrected etc...

If I make a mistake, I correct it.

Stop being such a narcissist.

Chaz.
 

Oleg

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Oleg, this is the last time I will say this.

The BP slots exist in the BP books - so they were added to complete the BP book listings.

You do not run entropedia, and I do not add info to entropedia to serve you or edit it at your whim.

The reason the community has the ability to edit entropedia is for its continual development. Things will be removed, some things added. Mistakes will be made and corrected etc...

If I make a mistake, I correct it.

Stop being such a narcissist.

Chaz.

The items do not exist. They should not be in Entropedia.
 

narfi

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There's no rude, and no elitism. And the thread starter appears to have joined EU, or at least PCF/EF, about 18 months ago so he's hardly an EU old-timer.

The fact is, bad data is much less likely to get fixed than missing data. And the new generation you seem to want us to treat with kid gloves could end up making costly mistakes as a result of that bad data. Criticism and rudeness are not synonyms.

No offense, I realize I am not getting my point across right. I am not sure how to explain it.

It is a mindset, it is subtle but it seems pretty obvious to me.
Your first paragraph says there is no elitism, and yet your second paragraph insinuates that new players are only capable of screwing stuff up and causing costly mistakes.

I agree, criticism and rudeness are not synonyms, but without some diplomacy most criticism is rude, and therefor even when not intended can come across that way. Maturity is understanding that diplomacy and "kiddy gloves" are not synonyms either.

I agree that what you are saying about editing etc.. is right, but the tone and the way that you present it is wrong and self defeating. That is what I am trying to explain.

The thread Oleg liked to is another example.

#1 I am right you are wrong.
#2 But I think I am right because of this.
#1 No I am right because of this and you are still wrong.
#3 That doesn't work though because it is inconsistent and disproves itself.
#1 It doesn't matter, I am right and have been here longer so I am right.

Nothing should ever be done "because I say so"
Do things with patience and understanding, and respect the fact that maybe the reason you do something may be flawed. This isn't "kiddy gloves" this is humanity I am trying to explain.

Assuming that someone will do something you want because you told them to is in this instance both rude and elitist.
(I am better than you so you WILL do what I say)

People want to help, people like being involved, that is really one aspect of fun in games is the immersing yourself into the study of it. So with a wiki you will have new players wanting to help and be involved. An open wiki is open for that and can be reverted to former edits if I am not mistaken.

I know I am going against the grain here, and I apologize. But It would be good if you could look at what I am trying to explain without immediately trying to prove me wrong. If you look at the subtleties of what I am trying to say then you might understand how you can improve not just peoples approach to entropedia but to their opinions of this forum and the community etc...

Otherwise just close editing to all but Jimmy and Oleg, and keep it the perfect wiki of the past. (what good would that do with such a rapidly changing universe?)

Again Oleg and Jimmy, I apologize since I realize this comes across as harsh, but I don't know a better way to try and explain it to you since you didn't seem to understand the first time.

This game is getting better all the time, and we should be on the same page. Us as a new players and you as older players working together to make this a better place.

narfi
 

iwasinnamuknow

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No offense, I realize I am not getting my point across right. I am not sure how to explain it.

It is a mindset, it is subtle but it seems pretty obvious to me.
Your first paragraph says there is no elitism, and yet your second paragraph insinuates that new players are only capable of screwing stuff up and causing costly mistakes.

I think he said that newer players might make costly mistakes due to incorrect data on entropedia, not that they are the source of the errors.
 

wizzszz

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The items do not exist. They should not be in Entropedia.

What he said - there is a "Discovered" column for almost every item, holding the VU it has been discovered in... this column is there for a reason, and if something hasn't dropped yet, it simply doesn't belong there.



On topic:
In a perfect world we would have a council of trustworthy members.
All updates are not written directly to the tables, but go on a list where the council can check how often they have been reported, maybe take into account who posted the update, and then decide whether the update should be written to the tables, needs more confirmation (remains in the pendin updates pool, but marked somehow) or will simply be dropped.


But:
Witte needs to set up a system like that.
There needs to be several people for the council who are willing to i.e. verify values and be available for discussion/have some spare time to check the updates, maybe 2-3 times a week.
Most people are not too keen on yet another long term duty (but heck, if i'm not gonna end up being the only one i'd do it, at least for a while, to get things started - in general, all entropedia gold members should qualify...)




Some more thoughts:
Maybe a voting system where 3 council member votes are needed to confirm that an update is valid or something...
Maybe the pending updates are somehow shown next to the old values in the tables, newly added values (now verified by the council) could be marked, i.e. colored in green or something.
 

mastermesh

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What he said - there is a "Discovered" column for almost every item, holding the VU it has been discovered in... this column is there for a reason, and if something hasn't dropped yet, it simply doesn't belong there.



On topic:
In a perfect world we would have a council of trustworthy members.
All updates are not written directly to the tables, but go on a list where the council can check how often they have been reported, maybe take into account who posted the update, and then decide whether the update should be written to the tables, needs more confirmation (remains in the pendin updates pool, but marked somehow) or will simply be dropped.


But:
Witte needs to set up a system like that.
There needs to be several people for the council who are willing to i.e. verify values and be available for discussion/have some spare time to check the updates, maybe 2-3 times a week.
Most people are not too keen on yet another long term duty (but heck, if i'm not gonna end up being the only one i'd do it, at least for a while, to get things started - in general, all entropedia gold members should qualify...)




Some more thoughts:
Maybe a voting system where 3 council member votes are needed to confirm that an update is valid or something...
Maybe the pending updates are somehow shown next to the old values in the tables, newly added values (now verified by the council) could be marked, i.e. colored in green or something.

Councils are probably a bad idea. Then you get even more elitist type of things going on, very similar to the flaws that exist over in wikipedia where if the inner group doesn't like edits based on their own preferences they just delete them, etc. http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2005/12/69880

Side note: don't see the mod pixie on 'the other' wiki (yet): http://www.entropiaplanets.com/wiki/Armor
 

wizzszz

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Councils are probably a bad idea. Then you get even more elitist type of things going on, very similar to the flaws that exist over in wikipedia where if the inner group doesn't like edits based on their own preferences they just delete them, etc. http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2005/12/69880

Care to expand on why you think this is "elitist"?

The system entropedia uses now (partially based on my suggestions) is more "elitist" than a council:
If you are trusted member you can edit everything at will, with only very little control - only updates by "normal" people require confirmation by a trusted member.



What i've suggested here is a more democratic system, a system of mutual control,
where it is no longer possible that a single person can manipulate entries.
(if you want to put it differently, my suggestion simply requires more than one confirmation)

Pretty much everyone willing to donate some time is welcome to join the "council".
(i said "entropedia gold members should qualify", but that doesn't mean all others dont: some sensible basic restrictions should be applied though, like a min. of 6 months in EU, so you actually know about the wiki basics, like the fruit method, and how to determine the max. damage a mob does, how mindforce works, what restrictions apply to amps... stuff like that)




And there is always Witte who can stop it when things are heading the wrong way...
I added my post above to the wish list on entropedia, looking forward to Wittes thoughts on this.
 

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I only put in what I have personally looted...I prolly tend to make things rarer than they are but I tend to do smaller ped hunt/crafts....

It'll balance out with more entries i suspect.








Tippin'
 

Chazlow

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Off Topic:

What he said - there is a "Discovered" column for almost every item, holding the VU it has been discovered in... this column is there for a reason, and if something hasn't dropped yet, it simply doesn't belong there.

Considering less than 15% of all BP's have this entry completed this statement is nonsensical - exemplified for most pre VU10 BP's. Check the data, the column is hidden by default in most charts.

On Topic:

The current system works well and allows everyone to contribute how they choose to.

The entropedia internal messaging system serves the purpose to contact one another to sight, edit and communicate its contents - no 'council' needed imo.
 

bigdaddy trim

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So how do you edit and add stuff? I will do my bit to help with rocktropia. Also how do you decide whats common and rare loot?
 

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fuck mod pixie, still trying to loot a mod amplifier.
 

Jimmy B

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Your first paragraph says there is no elitism, and yet your second paragraph insinuates that new players are only capable of screwing stuff up and causing costly mistakes.

Firstly sorry, when I started my post you hadn't responded to Oleg, so I made an unnecessary post really. But anyway, my second paragraph insinuated nothing of the sort. I was saying new players could unknowingly make costly mistakes (in-game) because of the bad data on entropedia.

For the record, the thread subject applies to all players new and old alike. The first mention of 'new' players in the thread was in your post.

Nothing should ever be done "because I say so"

Of course, but I think I (and others) gave some good reasons as to why entering incorrect data should be avoided.

I think he said that newer players might make costly mistakes due to incorrect data on entropedia, not that they are the source of the errors.

Thanks, exactly.
 
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Ze-Tomb Raider

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fuck mod pixie, still trying to loot a mod amplifier.

Have 25 Disciples Graduate and then you have a 5% Chance at that Skip. :cool:
 

remontoire

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Rem it was me who added the mod pixie. You can always edit it in future like I will when it arrives. Reason for doing this? I wanted to see if with its current stats it was an eco set like gnome or warrior. Plus it's not really hearsay, KIM has said the new armor coming is called modified pixie just stats will have changed now from what I hear. But I'll take your advice for future if this really has disturbed your armor adviser readings, thanks :).

Well, see the problem is not really what I see in the output of some tool, but what everybody else sees. I spend far too much time on the forums and know about the background (in this case anyways), but not everybody does, which is the real problem.

I'm soryy if I came over as too harsh, it was much more targeted at people overly optimsticly adding things in the future as oppposed to anything thats there already.

It is intimidating enough trying to lean and add stuff to the wiki without worrying about being sent to the gas chamber if anyone finds out.

I know that has really taken away any of my motivation.

narfi

:laugh: I know the feeling, I also know the "oh my god, what did I just do, I'm such a total klutz!" feeling and having to go back and to fix it. Mistakes happen. As long as you keep track of the things you do and update, you will ultimately catch most of these on your own and also fix - or possibly ask others to fix if you can't on your own.

There's no rude, and no elitism. And the thread starter appears to have joined EU, or at least PCF/EF, about 18 months ago so he's hardly an EU old-timer.

The fact is, bad data is much less likely to get fixed than missing data. And the new generation you seem to want us to treat with kid gloves could end up making costly mistakes as a result of that bad data. Criticism and rudeness are not synonyms.

More like 25 months (Ti castle had signs warning of wet concrete when i joined), I made a forum account much later than starting to read forum or use Entropedia. But narfi is right about there being a psychological barrier to updating Entropedia, if I was not a long time Wikipedia contributor, I doubt I would have started to do it.

Some more thoughts:
Maybe a voting system where 3 council member votes are needed to confirm that an update is valid or something...
Maybe the pending updates are somehow shown next to the old values in the tables, newly added values (now verified by the council) could be marked, i.e. colored in green or something.

I think the present self-policing works rather well.

So how do you edit and add stuff? I will do my bit to help with rocktropia. Also how do you decide whats common and rare loot?

Simple - first sign up, then log in. After that you can click on the "Add item" links next to various lists, to add items.

Loot frequency classes are listed here. You don't need to add the class immediately when you loot something, you can start off with unknown or even leave it empty. This is probably the worst maintained part in the loot tables.

fuck mod pixie, still trying to loot a mod amplifier.

As long as the source of items that have only be sen on MA Avatars is listed as "MA Only", I think all is ok.
 

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few members able to edit stats is a very good idea when those in charge of tasks neg rep you accusating of fake loot when you get a tango
 
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