Possible to rework enhancers?

jambon

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Devs, please consider reworking the bp's for enhancers ASAP as this is a missed opportunity for stabilizing the economy and improving the turnover of resources.

Right now, enhancers are causing some big problems because of their insane markup and over-focus on using Dianthius and Pyrite. (All the enhancers of the same type use the same materials for each level and only swap out the socked component required currently). And the most heavily used enhancers all use just Dianthius and Pyrite.

As you know, many are upset with the lack of markup on most mined resources (even rare ones). And the cost of enhancers has shot up so much that the economics of damage enhancers are almost about to collapse on itself. Already, eco enhancers as so expensive the savings in "eco" from using them doesn't even cover 1/10th the cost to use them in the first place.

When enhancers first came out the bp's and markups made sense and supply and demand seemed balanced for a long while. But, I believe the main reason for this was because there were very few people using enhancers at that time above tier 1 & 2.

Only limited items had the higher tiers unlocked and even then, it was a small number that had higher than normal tier rates. So the markups made sense at that time based on the supply/demand. Now MANY unlimited guns (and tools to a lesser extent) in the game are hitting levels 4,5,6,7 and beyond. And as such, people are consuming a lot more enhancers than ever before because more and more weapons have the majority of tier slots unlocked.

The use and turnover of enhancers is a great thing but the way the bp's are I just don't see it as being sustainable and I feel it's a hugely missed opportunity to help balance the economy and bring some markup back to mined resources. (Something that's seriously needed since the introduction of explosive projectiles.)

Demand (and cost) is only going to keep going up especially when you consider that in the next 1-2 years or so the average tier level of unlimited weapons (and tools) will start to creep up to 8,9,10. At that point, unless something is done I can see weapon damage enhancers hitting a markup of 800 - 1000% and pyrite and dianthius going up another 200 - 300% in markup at least. Either that, or it will just completely collapse on itself and no one will craft or use enhancers anymore because the cost is just unrealistic for all those involved thus hurting turnover.


I propose the following 2 things:


  • All the bps for enhancers (specifically the ones that use Pyrite and Dianthius) should be looked at again and the have those bps use a wider range of materials. Ideally, using mined resources that are seriously undervalued currently like: cobalt, dianium, petonium, valurite, narc and niks. (or possibly add in the need for some common ones too like lyst, belk, cald...etc).
  • Change enhancers to decay over time by a fixed rate rather than this whole "random" business. Have them as consumable items that decay over time with use (a calculable value that can be measured and tracked). This will keep the demand for these items more predicable with less spikes when a ton of people burn through a larger than average amount in a single hunt at the same time. This will help crafters keep up with demand, will help miners keep up with demand for required resources and will allow hunters to keep a better handle on their profit/loss on hunts when using enhancers.

I welcome the community to give their feedback on this as I think it's something really worth considering.

Thanks
 

Iceman2003

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There is no chance to do that. I know you love yours accuracy enhancers but you hate the price you must pay for Slot III-X(around 1000% atm). Nothing will change, MA will not allow people to be eco as hell with guns normally have eco 3.0 and fully acc enh 3,2 with est. Thats the life. Yours post will not change MA thinking :)
 

Harmony.

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It would be a lot easier for them to just increase the drop rate for dianthus and pyrite.
But then it would upset some miners....

The thing about markup is that every one loves getting it, but hates paying it. So in the end nobody is satisfied.
 
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It would be a lot easier for them to just increase the drop rate for dianthus and pyrite.
But then it would upset some miners....

The thing about markup is that every one loves getting it, but hates paying it. So in the end nobody is satisfied.
that is not entirely true.
for example id pay 500-600% easily for accu enhancers, as on most weapons i checked they are worth their money up to 700-750% MU.
and that markup could go partly to miners with an enhanced MU on many resources instead of just one resource. for example as miner id prefer it a lot if id get 120% for narc and cald and garcen or something similar as opposed to 300% on a very rare resource. ofc the 300% are nice but overall mining results would be better with higher MU across the board rather than the occasional rare valuable ore.
if the BP is made correctly it could result in a bigger bandwidth of a little more valuable resources for miners, a bit profit for the crafter and a happy MU paying customer as he still makes a little profit with the enhancers he is buying. everyone could be happy. it may need some tweaking but if MA wanted to they could change the bps, test how the market reacts and adjust it another time after like a month or 2.
but that would mean a little bit of work at MAs side to satisfy all of their customers.
better just make ep5. its easier, right?
 

slither

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You don't need to do anything drastic, it's really simple.

1) Take the cap off dianthius

2) Allow pyrite to spawn outside PVP


Problem solved.
 

slick27

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You don't need to do anything drastic, it's really simple.

1) Take the cap off dianthius

2) Allow pyrite to spawn outside PVP


Problem solved.
I could be wrong but i swear iv seen pyrite hofs coming from some la's. Havent found any myself but hey.
 

jambon

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The thing about markup is that every one loves getting it, but hates paying it. So in the end nobody is satisfied.
Can't say I agree with this completely....

Regardless of the markup being 800%, 900%, 1000% you realize the crafters aren't seeing all that markup as profit, right?

When the materials to craft have a giant markup it makes the runs that much more risky especially when the item has no potential to hit big - MA doesn't factor the markup you paid into the global/hof potential of something which is why the biggest enhancers hof's are at about 2.7k. And near successes can hurt just as bad as failures if the markup you paid is high enough and your near successes don't return those high markup items.

Personally, I have no problem paying a reasonable markup on something that I can get value from. However, there is a line where it becomes excessive and where it's to a point where only the gamblers who don't really care about eco will buy and use those items. Enhancers in general are NOT eco except maybe for those very few in the EST setup as was described or maybe with eco enhancers on faps. But despite not being eco, enhancers can be used to let you gamble and take on mobs that are way above your level (for a big price of course).

And if that's all they were ever meant to be - fine. But this just seems to fly in the face of what it looks like MA have been trying to accomplish with their moves in recent years which look to be more focused on isolating gamblers away from the rest of the economy (explosive projectiles and them using TT nanocubes) and trying to make the game more affordable across the board for all levels of players and to increase ped turnover (their #1 source of profit for the business).

With the markups being so high on these things and the BPs not using a wide enough spread of resources enhancers are very quickly becoming a niche item that cater to only the super rich (in game).

Consider also that there's no pricing factor based on the weapon that the item is going into. Enhancers cost the same to buy no matter if it's going in a TT gun or a mod merc. Some have said that the bigger your weapon the faster it eats enhancers but I'm not sure if we have definitive proof on this (anyone know for sure?). If not, and their plan was for the markup of enhancers to explode into astronomical realms why do we even have tiers on low level gear?

Seriously, fast forward to when all enhancers are 2x-3x more than they cost now in a couple years. If you just paid like 20-40 peds for a low level tier 4-6 gun would you ever consider then spending like 100 - 200+ EXTRA peds to fill it with enhancers that get eaten "randomly"?
 

minim

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I could be wrong but i swear iv seen pyrite hofs coming from some la's. Havent found any myself but hey.
If you find that LA please let me know so I can buy it asap zulu honolulu! :smoke:
 

GoNi

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NO, do not change it.

Its good how it is, there is some MU crafters actually can get, and you will kill that, what would force even more crafters to do Explo instead something useful.

The MU for Pyrite/Dianthus is ok for miners, why kill that option for miners.
The MU for Enhancers is good for crafters, why kill that option for crafters.
 
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NO, do not change it.

Its good how it is, there is some MU crafters actually can get, and you will kill that, what would force even more crafters to do Explo instead something useful.

The MU for Pyrite/Dianthus is ok for miners, why kill that option for miners.
The MU for Enhancers is good for crafters, why kill that option for crafters.
simple answer: cos the MU will crash heavily as soon as people realise that buying at that price right now is plain stupid.
also would you rather sell 10 enhancer for 1 ped profit each or 100 enhancers at 50 pec profit each? if theyd change it the market would become significantly bigger resulting in more overall profit.
 

GoNi

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simple answer: cos the MU will crash heavily as soon as people realise that buying at that price right now is plain stupid.
also would you rather sell 10 enhancer for 1 ped profit each or 100 enhancers at 50 pec profit each? if theyd change it the market would become significantly bigger resulting in more overall profit.
actually I have no problems with selling my enhancers.
my open bid is always way below actual MU, but it sells for BO very fast, so its used and some actually think its ok to pay that MU.

Why everyone is complaining about MU, they personally think is not ok, while thousand others actually pay that MU and think it is ok.
 

Vagrant

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NO, do not change it.

Its good how it is, there is some MU crafters actually can get, and you will kill that, what would force even more crafters to do Explo instead something useful.

The MU for Pyrite/Dianthus is ok for miners, why kill that option for miners.
The MU for Enhancers is good for crafters, why kill that option for crafters.
People who buy them at the current typical markup either don't know any better or have some exotic setup that makes it worth it somehow. Edit: Or of course there is the option that you don't care..

Fact is that we are at a point where:
- People don't bother to tier UL items.
- People don't pay you for unlocked slots on ul items.
- The typical player with UL items don't bother to put enhancers in the weapon sockets.

What is better?
- Sell few at high markup?
- Sell many at reasonable markup?

Benefits of improving in this area:
- More people tier the weapons, more peds to MA.
- Keep thing competitive for events etc, the avg person is not ready to buy enhancers for several thousand to be able to run 40h event etc.
- More peds cycled.

I think the ambition always needs to be balance between the professions.
It is not binary: Enhancers at high markup vs explosive projectiles.
 

Mac

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I burned up the last of my t1-8 dmg enhancers after I finished solo MM, not that it actually helped me win anything anyway, I haven't bought any since.

None of my weps have any enh now.

I miss the damage and skills, but fuck it, I'm not paying these prices.
 

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mastermesh

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Bah. Just make l versions of bps that only use explosives as ingredients
 

Darkaruki

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Enhancers or enhancer slots at their current state are in need of a rework somewhere in their system, whether that's on the crafting front, the mining front, or the the enhancers' functionality themselves doesn't matter but something needs to change.

Current insane prices and community apathy towards sinking PEDs into tiering benefits no one.
 

atomicstorm

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I burned up the last of my t1-8 dmg enhancers after I finished solo MM, not that it actually helped me win anything anyway, I haven't bought any since.

None of my weps have any enh now.

I miss the damage and skills, but fuck it, I'm not paying these prices.
Only thing with enhancers are that the hoarders of materials exploiting the caps are the ones getting rich. The savings earned from using the enhancers are just going from your hands to the people hoarding it. It's not much different than the mining amp cartels of old and any other group of folks who have the peds to sit on resources until they stop dropping. When it wasn't pyrite and dianthus, it was output amps. Now you have the mythical price of est built in to the accuracy enhancers which simply doesn't help the hunter at all. Whatever savings may manifest into plus ped runs (which is not guaranteed), goes directly to the enhancer crafters.

Those that can be in the position to farm themselves, make the enhancers, giving them an advantage in events.. or profit from selling them. I don't hate the player in this case but it's not balanced. Mindark is in the business of increasing turnover.. this is antithetical to that.
 

Avon(AJ)Jerrix

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You don't need to do anything drastic, it's really simple.

1) Take the cap off dianthius

2) Allow pyrite to spawn outside PVP


Problem solved.
This isn't drastic? Asking MA to crash the markup because it's too high?

Adjusting the BPs is the simplest answer. Leave the higher level enhancers as they are and use more common mats for the lower levels. Players who buy the higher level enhancers now will still buy them, and more players will buy the lower ones because they are cheaper.

Only thing with enhancers are that the hoarders of materials exploiting the caps are the ones getting rich.
You seem more interested in punishing hoarders than in solving the problem.
 

atomicstorm

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You seem more interested in punishing hoarders than in solving the problem.
You seem ignorant to the problem.

We are here because of resource caps and hoarding. So, you do something about that instead of changing blueprints, which they won't do anyway. Punishing hoarders? Seems like you couldn't read my statement where I said I don't hate the player. I hate the system making it easy to manipulate resources. Because right now, certain few craft enhancers, then mining buddies go and grab the pyrite, etc. It's too easy. What makes the game dynamic is fairly easy to exploit.. read: wave loots. It was that way with mining materials, arkoins, oils, output amps, etc.

When there are people who are buying a lot of resources, people buy it all and push up the markup. It's easy to do that because you can't really farm something into ultra saturation in this game UNLESS mindark's loot manager has lifted the cap (oils, wools for example recently).

Changing the blueprints just changes the means for which resources will be exploited.

The question is what makes this game better. The way it is now or allowing for enhancers to be crafted more reasonably where not prone to exploitation so that people can turnover more.

I'll do you one better than this. Make enhancers use oils, wools, nanos, and some mining material that isn't pvp exclusive (so it can't be controlled), and we can discuss NEW blueprints. For the interim though, it's a serious problem.. interestingly enough occurring right before (or accelerated) earth shock was depleted. Also, should they do this, it should apply to pills also.
 
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GoNi

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Anyone can check if using accuracy enhancers at the current markup actually makes them more eco using their weapon here:

http://www.entropiawiki.com/WeaponCompareV2.aspx
For those who enjoy hunting events eco is not the major aspect what to use, dps is much more important here.

For those who like to have highest DMG on shared mobs, eco is the last thing they look on, DPS is important here, too.

Actually enhancers can be used to push dps, not the eco !
Especially on tier10 UL guns !
 

ZPF

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Solution to hoarding:

If you don't craft with your resources within 4 weeks, they turn into nanocubes ;)

I'm joking... mostly. Some kind of "half-life" mechanism for resources might encourage turnover and reduce hoarding, yes I know it sounds extreme :thumbup:
 

atomicstorm

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Solution to hoarding:

If you don't craft with your resources within 4 weeks, they turn into nanocubes ;)

I'm joking... mostly. Some kind of "half-life" mechanism for resources might encourage turnover and reduce hoarding, yes I know it sounds extreme :thumbup:
Well in reality, hoarding would stop when people stop buying. That's the law of supply and demand. The case I make is there is too little supply.. so we need more of that. Simple as that.
 

ZPF

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Well in reality, hoarding would stop when people stop buying. That's the law of supply and demand. The case I make is there is too little supply.. so we need more of that. Simple as that.
People have stopped buying (and crafting)... that's sort of the problem. Not much markup left aside from the enhancer materials, which is why people are so testy about screwing with the current supply/markup of dianthus/pyrite.
 
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it might help a little if instead of getting residue back from a succesful click you actually get more enhancers. and do that for all the stackable stuff like welding wire as well.
 

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People have stopped buying (and crafting)... that's sort of the problem. Not much markup left aside from the enhancer materials, which is why people are so testy about screwing with the current supply/markup of dianthus/pyrite.
If they changed the materials for the low/mid level damage and accuracy enhancer bps then the markup on those materials could go up. Mining for only one thing that only drops in waves sucks, imo.
 
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