Question: Is all decay included when hunting?

Ace Flyster

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As daimon said above. Maybe fap cost is ONLY returned when turreting/drowning and not actually hunting and looting?

Has this test been done?

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The MeanMachine

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Many will disagree with me but i strongly belive amp decay is not counted in hunting and i did some tests and its far better of by not using the amp or the amps are far far away behined the guns development its just way to uneco to use it. This and using pills are biggest losses ingame if u ask me that u dont get back.
 
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Xen

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75% return when turreting doesn't mean that you only get 75% when looting.
 

wizz

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Many will disagree with me but i strongly belive amp decay is not counted in hunting and i did some tests and its far better of by not using the amp or the amps are far far away behined the guns development its just way to uneco to use it. This and using pills are biggest losses ingame if u ask me that u dont get back.


So you claim that melee amp decay is not returned in loot??

That would mean that my melee runs should always get 70% or less return. That's not the case.
 

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By my testing it appears that healing between mobs adds the loot to the next mob.

My testing method:

1. Aggro a mob and allow the mob to do 90% damage to you.
2. Turret the mob (no loot received)
3. Heal yourself (decay incurred)
4. Aggro another mob and then turret it without healing yourself (loot received)

My observation shows loot.

I believe this observation supports the theory that decay incurred between mobs is added to the next aggroed mob.

I wonder how long the extra decay is kept. You could try 1) relog 2) TP to another server 3) wait an hour between step 3 and 4 and see if the decay is returned. This could give some insight into the loot algorithm. :rolleyes:
 

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Many will disagree with me but i strongly belive amp decay is not counted in hunting and i did some tests and its far better of by not using the amp or the amps are far far away behined the guns development its just way to uneco to use it. This and using pills are biggest losses ingame if u ask me that u dont get back.

Enhancers account for biggest loss, then Pills, if you ask me.
 

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Many will disagree with me but i strongly belive amp decay is not counted in hunting and i did some tests and its far better of by not using the amp or the amps are far far away behined the guns development its just way to uneco to use it. This and using pills are biggest losses ingame if u ask me that u dont get back.

I think what you mean here is laser and blp amps, if so, then I've noticed the same thing. I did some test runs with barba+a101 and barba+zincadus (the one for the starter pack), and the latter almost always yielded better results cuz the amp has virtually no tt value, while a101 doesn't even use ammo and ony decays when you shoot with it. Ofc it's not a scientific study but it's the feeling I got. Plus I did own a BLP beast amp for some time, I didn't like the returns I got with it to say the least. I also did some runs with melee amp1+Falcata and this seems to work as one would expect.

In general I can say that, and this is based on my own experience, the less decay you have to pay for, the better. And I miss Batsim guns a lot, I still wonder why was it removed and when it will be back, if ever.
 

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Enhancers account for biggest loss, then Pills, if you ask me.

Isn't this simply because of the high MU of enhancers? I mean anything with high MU should in theory yield bigger loss since returns only take TT-value into account. :confused:
 

Legends

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Isn't this simply because of the high MU of enhancers? I mean anything with high MU should in theory yield bigger loss since returns only take TT-value into account. :confused:

Correct. If you use the most expensive pills all the time, then yes, it will be the pills. But if you are using a tier 9 or 10 gun and you always have it full of enhancers, then it would be the enhancers, if you are using 10mg pills. (The 15mg pills are not really plentyful enough so as to permit someone to use them all the time I don't think).

So I'm just saying that in general, I think the use of enhancers would account for a bigger loss then the use of pills.
 
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Ace Flyster

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So you claim that melee amp decay is not returned in loot??

That would mean that my melee runs should always get 70% or less return. That's not the case.


Reminds of the old arguments - back in 2006 - that melee returned different loots because of no ammo.

Decay of weapon and amp and any ammo used, has always counted towards total decay when killing mobs (irrelevant of what type)

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yea i ment rifle and hangun amps they are pre ancient .... I see people having tier 10 guns super eco and run with no amp and no enhancers how fucking borring game that is but i understand why just to not lose their asses off. Something has to be changed. I refuse to have skilled to go back to using very low dps again .... High regen mobs should reward with items like they use to do before so there is some point of using enhancers again and that would automaticly raise the price of output amps and increase our returns also and hopefully mining also with the MU.
 
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LavaSparks

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yea i ment rifle and hangun amps they are pre ancient .... I see people having tier 10 guns super eco and run with no amp and no enhancers how fucking borring game that is but i understand why just to not lose their asses off. Something has to be changed. I refuse to have skilled to go back to using very low dps again .... High regen mobs should reward with items like they use to do before so there is some point of using enhancers again and that would automaticly raise the price of output amps and increase our returns also and hopefully mining also with the MU.

Your hypothesis is dubious at best. I have roughly 95 % tt Return long term. I use armatrix+ Dante all the time. If the amp didn't return tt, I'd have 30 % less return. Or by your logic, by skipping the amp I'd have 125 % tt return :smoke: Same result With Mayhem alfa amp: I cycled 20k ped With it, Return was 95+ %.

So go ahead and prove your hypothesis! Hunt without amp and enjoy enormous tt Return!

edit: even if you meant just the decay of the amp, dante decays 4 pec per shot (and 3 pec ammo). I'd observe a decrease in my tt Return by at least 15 %. After hundred thousands of kills, this is not the case.
 
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Your hypothesis is dubious at best. I have roughly 95 % tt Return long term. I use armatrix+ Dante all the time. If the amp didn't return tt, I'd have 30 % less return. Or by your logic, by skipping the amp I'd have 125 % tt return :smoke: Same result With Mayhem alfa amp: I cycled 20k ped With it, Return was 95+ %.

So go ahead and prove your hypothesis! Hunt without amp and enjoy enormous tt Return!

Well not 30% as the amp also uses ammo unlike the melee amp. So only part of the amp cost is decay.
But I do get your point.
I did not notice any difference using mindforce with or without amp. I use a lvl 6 amp but I must admit the decay on that amp is extremely low.
 

jetsina

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This thread has suddenly caught some traction just when I've had no time and connection probs...
I hope to try some testing of what happens with hunted mobs. My theory is that 75% is returned there too, so loot range will no longer have a lower boundary of 20% of cost if there has been a lot of healing. Don't forget I have had the odd mob not return decay, but I got it on the next mob, so that confuses matters but may still be possible to test this effectively. GL all in the meantime
 

Daimon Frey

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This thread has suddenly caught some traction just when I've had no time and connection probs...
I hope to try some testing of what happens with hunted mobs. My theory is that 75% is returned there too, so loot range will no longer have a lower boundary of 20% of cost if there has been a lot of healing. Don't forget I have had the odd mob not return decay, but I got it on the next mob, so that confuses matters but may still be possible to test this effectively. GL all in the meantime

I did 6 hunting tests, not much but it's time consuming on punies to pull my HP down for healing. I was healing for 10pec and killing puny (4 pec), lowest I got in that 6 tries was 4 pec and I would expect at least 7.5pec from healing at 75% return. So it may work differently on hunting but more testing needed. I would like to do 100mobs test but losing HP fast is a problem. Also punies are too much decay - when I will have some time I will move to rocktropia and test on bank robbers assuming I find a way to decrease my HP fast.
 

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Many will disagree with me but i strongly belive amp decay is not counted in hunting and i did some tests and its far better of by not using the amp or the amps are far far away behined the guns development its just way to uneco to use it. This and using pills are biggest losses ingame if u ask me that u dont get back.

Hypothesis: Amp decays are definitely included in loot.

Tools: TT powerfist (L), Trauma Amp 6.

Method:

1. Kill 10 punies with the TT powerfist unamped and record the loots of each one.
2. Over-amp with the Trauma 6 and kill 10 more of the same type of punies and record loot for each one.

Observations: Average loots are consistently and significantly higher when amped than when unamped.

Conclusion: Amp decays are definitely included in loot.
 

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I believe that most hunting related things are used in loot calculation. But I think there is a deminishing return for inefecient decay. IE the first few uses of your fap count the full decay in loot but the more you use your fap on a single mob the less is counted for loot.

Regarding the deminishing returns is this just a theory or have people actually confirmed this through testing? I remember ages ago when I tried entropia for the very first time (used to be called Project Entropia back then) and there were rumours back then that some people forced globals/hofs by shooting high regen mobs, letting them heal up then continue shooting and repeating this. Obviously this was ages ago and I am sure MA has changed the system quite a few times since then, but can we be sure that some form of this still isn't around with the system we have now since more decay "types" are taken into consideration now? It would obviously be super un-eco to hunt this way, but couldn't something like this be abused in i.e. most globals events and such?

You guys are way more experienced and knowledgeable than I am in EU, so please excuse any foolish questions I may have. The loot system is however a key part of the game so I am trying to learn from you guys. :)

/Uther
 

jetsina

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I did 6 hunting tests, not much but it's time consuming on punies to pull my HP down for healing. I was healing for 10pec and killing puny (4 pec), lowest I got in that 6 tries was 4 pec and I would expect at least 7.5pec from healing at 75% return. So it may work differently on hunting but more testing needed. I would like to do 100mobs test but losing HP fast is a problem. Also punies are too much decay - when I will have some time I will move to rocktropia and test on bank robbers assuming I find a way to decrease my HP fast.

rgr that. My alternative is that 75% goes into the loot variation (with possible multis? and expected long-term of 90-whateverish%...) i.e. your 14 pecs on each mob are actually considered as 7.5+4=11.5 pecs by the loot system and would never pay back less than 2.3 pecs if you actually get a 4 pec kill on the weapon side (would depend on what you use - something with average of 12 damage and 1 shot killing a 10hp puny like carabok?).

If more than 75% of decay is returned, maybe even up to 100% in the loot calculator (which itself then over time only pays out 90%ish), then you'd be getting a minimum loot of 2.8 pecs.
If only you could see results as fast as repair rep range on an rk-5 or so ;) - ah well, it'll take quite a few tries to be relatively sure of minimums... and ironically actually hoping for low looters :ahh:

Not much time here though, and borrowed connection down the road from home, so GL again and hopefully I'll get to try this soon, or somebody else has a go who has understood what I mean ...
 
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Detritus

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Hypothesis: Amp decays are definitely included in loot.

Tools: TT powerfist (L), Trauma Amp 6.

Method:

1. Kill 10 punies with the TT powerfist unamped and record the loots of each one.
2. Over-amp with the Trauma 6 and kill 10 more of the same type of punies and record loot for each one.

Observations: Average loots are consistently and significantly higher when amped than when unamped.

Conclusion: Amp decays are definitely included in loot.


Helpful, but I think you are a bit quick with calling it conclusive.

Overamping could be compensated by a different term in the loot function than standard cost.

The amp you chose has decay only and no ammo burn, which also could be compensated by a different term in the loot function.


Would be interesting to test with other combinations.
 

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I believe that most hunting related things are used in loot calculation. But I think there is a deminishing return for inefecient decay. IE the first few uses of your fap count the full decay in loot but the more you use your fap on a single mob the less is counted for loot.

DISCLAIMER: This is a personal theory and not something I am stating as fact. Also feel free to check my math as it's not my strong point.

Based on my observations I believe it works something like this...

Two factors influence the amount of decay being added to your loot.

1. FAPs have an invisible "efficiency rating" similar to weapons which directly impacts the maximum % of decay returned upon use. Call this variable A.

2. FAP decay is added to loot based on the % of actual heal used. Call this variable B.

I'll use D to indicate decay in this equation.
So decay return would look like this... (D x A) X B = Base Return

So lets create a hypothetical scenario...

You have a FAP with a max efficiency factor of 95%. This FAP decays 10 PEC and heals 100 HP.

If you are missing 100 health, then it looks like this....

(10 * 0.95) X 1 = 9.5 PEC added to loot.

If you are missing only 70 health, then it looks like this....

(10 * 0.95) X 0.7 = 6.65 PEC added to loot.

Conclusion: Over-fapping results in PED lost (presumably going to the bonus shrapnel pool) while maximizing effective healing results in maximum decay returned to loot.

A few notes;

1. There may also be a third factor, something like a threshold factor allowing for a less than full heal to be used while still returning the max amount of decay into loot. Consequently some faps seem to be more "forgiving" of overhealing than others.

2. I do not have substantial empirical evidence to back this theory up. I conducted a handful of tests of various faps using turrets, drowning, and shared loot mobs and "eyeballed" my results. Because I was doing this exclusively for my own information I did not meticulously document my data.

3. The theory of the "efficiency rating" factor is purely speculative, and would be much more difficult to test than the actual heal factor.
 

HinDragoz

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Thought I'd share my small test on this a while back. "Extras" column is the deluxe fap decay.




After this I went mining and got it it all back and a little extra.
 

wizz

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Hypothesis: Amp decays are definitely included in loot.

Tools: TT powerfist (L), Trauma Amp 6.

Method:

1. Kill 10 punies with the TT powerfist unamped and record the loots of each one.
2. Over-amp with the Trauma 6 and kill 10 more of the same type of punies and record loot for each one.

Observations: Average loots are consistently and significantly higher when amped than when unamped.

Conclusion: Amp decays are definitely included in loot.

he was talking about laser and blp amps. Not melee amps.
 

Captain Jack

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he was talking about laser and blp amps. Not melee amps.

Easy fix. Conduct the same test with a small pistol and a big amp, you get the same results. It's just another way to "juice" mobs for specific purposes.
 

Captain Jack

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Helpful, but I think you are a bit quick with calling it conclusive.

Overamping could be compensated by a different term in the loot function than standard cost.

The amp you chose has decay only and no ammo burn, which also could be compensated by a different term in the loot function.


Would be interesting to test with other combinations.

I've tested with BLP pistols and rifles using Dante, Evil, and Mayhem (L) amps and I got the same results.

I've tested with Laser pistols and rifles using an A106, Improved 204, Hypercharged 204, and Mayhem (L) amps and got the same results.

Perhaps I should note, with the Mayhem (L) amps the decays are so minimal it is not realistic to observe a result based on the decay alone, but the cost increase appears to have a commensurate increase in loot return.
 

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Amps used to be compensated differently because it was loot 1.0, and dpp was the deciding factor. Now it's efficiency. If your amp increases that rating, it will increase your tt return. If no, no. It's that simple. How exactly it works, it's part of the loot mechanic, f' knows. My impression is that a number of factors (some of which are out of one's control) increase the variance of results short term, but it seriously doesn't matter long term. If you're running around with unamped imk2 or something, 2005 would like to have a talk with you.
 

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interesting potatoes with lots of their own theory

thanks for sharing:tiphat:
 

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Bored at work here. I don't suppose anyone has done a test with a massively inefficient fap, to see/confirm that decay from fapping while hunting a mob is returned in loot?

Rgds

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I tiered a emt-2900 kit to t7 specifically for this reason. I won a lot of events on that principle.

It is also to be quite honest why I sold the Mod Restoration chip, and got something with more decay behind it.
 
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afreeti

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another test someone could do

grab a cheap a$$ weapon from hunt the thing tt and 6 ped of ammo head to monria and find a 40 hp yog
drag it to some corner and afk shoot at it, it wont die since it will out regen the mob. After 15 min of shooting kill it
should be a global every time.

or just do 6 ped of healing and same thing
 

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If you are at a shared mob spawn and heal someone hunting, you do not get loot.
But if that mob hits you at some point and you heal yourself, you do get loot.
 
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