Rebalanced Mission Rewards

[remontoire]

I agree, but it's a losing battle (and I've given up). There are many more short timers than long timers and they drown out the minority with their cries for +8 stamina.

Nevermind that players like you and I didn't get to tt shadow, loot imp/mod faps, mod mercs, etc., stand around and fap with mobs on us all night to get immense defense/healing skills...

I'm happy to work for my +8 stamina, just give me some stamina at the end of all iron missions.

 

[remontoire]

This reply seems to have been overlooked.
Charlie, are you saying that the Aurli TT reward is less because the skill is a valuable one?
Since when have MA taken MU into account on any loot? Surely that has always been determined by player demand? It's a bad precedent to reduce a reward just because the current MU is high. Have any other rewards been reduced for the same reason?

Well, if the skill ratios were not at least somewhat tailored to what the rarity and markups were, this would have a very large impact on skill prices?

 

[Joat]

Well, actually, the change is better for new avatars, that hasn't started any missions yet.
Only peeps getting fucked by the change are some mid-lvl players that have several higher tier missions open (5k/10k/bronze ones).
Those that finished a chain, and those that didn't yet start a chain, are better off after the nerf (for most parts, skillwise).
Having to choose between attributes and skills is still a bit sad imho.

I'm at that position now, most missions are 5k for me, and I've seen I'll lose a lot with
new mission rewards vs old rewards. I guess MA will be the one who lose RL values thou'.
Luckily I have accepted it, I have adjusted my gaming too, so I guess it's just to keep
going on and get whatever I can later.
I'm going for attributes in rewards, and even thou' I haven't used a single skillchip yet
(neither in or out with skills) I see it like this; skills can always be bought later, while
attributes can't.

 

[Akbar]

If that is Dan Petrov you refer to...

I think Jor is/was belonging to the highest agi in game, close to 200 naturally.

 

[Mega]

I think he might have refered to that Blue...something guy.

I think Jor is/was belonging to the highest agi in game, close to 200 naturally.

Ah yes, there are some high attribute players indeed....

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?224004-Triple-Triple-Club

 

[Jimmy B]

I think everyone would agree that rewards for long term play are fine but those rewards probably should be done in a way that doesn't deter new players from joining the game or feeling that they are at a disadvantage once they do.

Yes, I agree.

 

[aia]

It reminds me of some pointless change a few years ago of stamina from 9 to 1. Or a few years before that, when stamina was arbitrarily started at 9 because that was the stamina of some dev's D&D character...

Changing start attributes from 20 to 1 made sense when it happened, because, as I've heard, it was said to be pretty fast to gain those first 20 (1->20) for an active player.

However, changing 9 to 1 for new people didn't make sense (though, as an "old" player, it was fun to have some advantage). Reason why it was logical with stamina 9 is simple: Health for mobs is pretty much Stamina*10, except that mobs (animal, mutants, robots etc) doesn't gain health - they don't "skill up". Pretty logical as the mobs we see ingame usually aren't individuals, and most mobs tend to be rather short lived (relatively). And, at the time stamina was 9, players had 90 as HP. After the change, new players had 88 or something like that as start HP, so it would still make sense to have stamina ~ 9 (or, possibly, 8.8).

(What I don't like was when the mission on RT and on NI lost their stamina gains. NI change wasn't announced clearly, only on their forum, and RT stamina gain was availible for 24 hours after a certain VU.)

As for limiting stamina gains, it would make sense if there is some other way to gain stamina (through normal playing). It would be fun to know if there is some change that way.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

Only peeps getting fucked by the change are some mid-lvl players that have several higher tier missions open (5k/10k/bronze ones).

Exactly my friend!!!
I'm pushing hard to finish last 10k mission while I know I'll be left with 6 missions on 5k stage (including Aurli and Krelt !@#%&!) and 6 missions on Bronze..... almost all rest at 1k.

Yes, I'm getting shafted. And not because I wasn't committed enough. I just wanted variety therefore was doing multiple missions at the time. Seems like now I'm being punished for that. Finally MA won and forced me to stay focused on one mob (now pushing Scips). But I get so tired of this grind and will be needing break after I finish scips. Totally understand why newbs leave - its frikking boring to repeatedly kill thousands of the same mob. So many other fun games out there. So in the long run MA losing big time on that kind of enforcements.

 

[jojo07]

but what exactly 8point of stamina give us?

does it s a real advantage or this can be compensated ? I got those 9points but I don't think it s an huge advantage...

people who complain about old loot etc don t forget that only a low part of old player got nice loot... it was way more harder to begin in past, now you can reach lvl 30 pretty easily with sib gun, loot wasn't oil we didn't got 2% on all loot, you wasn't able to loot .lr63 at 160%
and no uber armor wasn't common.

 

[Jimmy B]

but what exactly 8point of stamina give us?

A little under 1 HP.

 

[jojo07]

and people are crying for that?
for 7years of playing we have 0.8 more hp wow ....

 

[danimal01]

and people are crying for that?
for 7years of playing we have 0.8 more hp wow ....

You are thinking too small... think of it like this shall we? MindArk looses out on money when Stamina is gained.. why you ask? Because for every 9 points in Stamina an avatar gains one complete HP point while in these skills:


Heavy Weapons
Rifle
Combat Reflexes
Weapons Handling
Spacecraft Weaponry
Serendipity
Perception
Drilling
Surveying
Prospecting
Mining
etc.. take 1600 points to gain one complete HP. MindArk stands to loose out big time because it costs more in these other skills to gain a complete HP once you reach somewhere around 9000 points while Stamina will always be 9 points to 1 HP. The more HP an avatar has the easier it is for them to hunt naked or use economical means to hunt. Why do you think they nerf so many things over the 10 years that EU has been active? Not to mention all the "pec pinching" that they do... ie equipping fees, auction fees etc... the list goes on. The bottom line is they are nerfing anything and everythign that is possible to ensure that they always make an extra pec or two from all the players.

If MA would simply return 95% to its players and didn't "pec pinch" from them then more players would be inclined to play and play for longer. I've seen many new players deposit 1000 peds only to leave after they've depleted their funds to 200 peds from constant cycling on that revenue. The system needs to change drastically for the player base and not for the short term pockets of MA. MA needs to think long term peds and long term retention if they are to ever see more people play.

~Danimal

 

[Akbar]

If this could close the issue, all avatars who had 1 at the start should see their stamina increased of 8 points.... in a perspective of FAIRNESS, since mindark and their reprensentative are displaying themselves all the time doing things FAIRLY...

But are you really FAIR ?...


Btw, if the chat could come back to the original topic....

 

[Mandy]

Off topic:

At the risk of being branded an elitist old timer, no way should MA ever give those who started with 1 stamina an extra 8.

The people with 1 stamina started after the change was made.

They are not missing 8 stamina and it's not been stolen from them. You cannot be missing something if you were never meant to have it, and you can't have something stolen that you didn't have to start with.

If it was a change made whilst they were playing and MA decided that every avatar created after a certain date should have their stamina reduced, then they would have every right to be making demands.

However, demanding something from a time when you hadn't even started to play is completely unreasonable and unrealistic.

EU is constantly evolving and therefore changes happen. Sometimes in your favour, sometimes not.


On topic:

Thanks for posting the mission changes, being open to feedback and responding to questions.

Yes to changing the Argo Scout hp, as they will still die regardless.

I like the change to attribute tokens, but for something allegedly not as valuable as skills they come at a heavy price in skill reward loss. I could understand 25% less skills, maybe even 33%, but 50% is ouch!

I'd also like to throw a suggestion your way.

Any chance you could convince MA to remove all attributes gained from missions and replace them with the equivalent number of attribute tokens?

For a bit of number crunching, MA could bask in the warm fuzzy feeling of making a change that gives all players, existing and future, the same freedom and options to develop their avatar attributes when they feel the time is right.

 

[travrevyen]

Missions with/without reward

Before missions back in 2008-2009-2010 and the second golden age times, where you could hunt all day long and you didnt know how many mobs you killed at the end of the day, it was more fun. I hunted Longu young-old alot but i didnt get any reward for it..Nowadays I dont hunt Longu anymore why? because of the mission system.

DELETE THE MISSIONS!

 

[Dennis blighter]

Just prove this to me, forget everything besides the avatar it self...

They have stated several times all avatars are created equal.
If we dont have the 8 stamina, its not equal. Or please explain what the people later, in their avatar that makes up for the 8 stamina loss?

The issue is so big now because, now, stamina cuts into the mission skills. You can not gain stamina other than missions.

Its always been a small issue, but now they apply "fake" markups to that attribute(i dont care about others because they are gainable)

Either way, if you are trying to max your avatar(stamina wise) missing 8 stamina simply doesnt cut it.

If we can agree that stamina should be always gainable thats all i care for.
At that point i could care less, but that really has nothingto do here..

OR~~~~

To be honest, if we knew everything stamina did(if there is anything but hp gains) Then i could make a decision then.
For example, if it only gives small hp gains with no hidden gain, i could care less about stamina.
But i dont know that, and the way they value it is crazy, making me beleive it has hidden properties

And if it does have hidden properties, it would then depend what they are.
Maybe stamina reduces dmg by a fraction of a % per? For example. Then it would be an issue.

 

[Alice]

guys, cant you make a new thread about what 8 stamina (plus other attributes) really gives to the people?

thats about a mission reward nerf, i mean rebalance


and as it was mentioned earlier, the stamina was more of a bragging thing
the 1 HP you get after 2 points i think isnt that great necessarily ^^

but considering the missions will give just fractions of the skills partially and even less useful ones (for most of the people psyche is basically useless, profession wise and HP wise)

tbh, since there is no other way to skill stamina, i would rather propose to give -more- stamina
for example, replace all the former "you got 100 nova fragments!!!!" rewards with stamina fractions, matching the stage
ie 500 kills, 25 stamina fragments/shards/whatever you will call them; 5000 kills=65 stamina frags

so you get at least 1 full point stamina for standing a mission through
and i think lasting through a 16 600 is at least one thing, the sign of -stamina-

that the skill rewards will be brought down so much is a bad thing as well though
in that case i have to say that i mostly did the missions for the stamina gain so far and thought the skills were a nice bonus

as sidenote for MA, if you are still reading
it is hard keeping people playing (and paying) when you are taking stuff away from them all the time and charge for former free things all of a sudden (i.e. clothes)

 

[BlueEyes]

......... again a repeat of the unanswered questions.... could anyone of MA/PCF please respond, Kim, Charlie.....?

Why are there stamina tokens? No need to turn these in later...
Please keep the +1 stamina reward (unless there are plains to be able to gain stamina otherwise, are there?)

Will these missions keep their attribute reward???:
* Private message from Mr Lyndon or Officer Book? +1 psy
* Clear the area? +1 psy
* Patrol the swamp camp? +1 sta
* The pub crawl? +1 psy

1. Why must attributes come at such a skill cost?
2. Why can't stamina remain as a mission counter, at least in some fraction?
3. Will the non-grinding missions with attributes change?

regards Paul

 

[remontoire]

Mad Prophet

before I forget again - what will happen to the mad prophet mission chain? It gives a skill and attribute reward, and has 3 stages or kill 200 robots. And the book of machine, of course.

 

[BlueEyes]

before I forget again - what will happen to the mad prophet mission chain? It gives a skill and attribute reward, and has 3 stages or kill 200 robots. And the book of machine, of course.

Good point, forgot about that. That is attribute reward too.
What happens with that one?

 

[SpikE Odets]

To all posting about the old time players having 8 more stamina then you do. If im understanding everything correctly.. the old time players started with 9 stamina and 88 hp.. new players started with 1 stamina and 88 hp. So other then the number being different how is this effecting anyone. Its not like they have almost 1 more hp piont then you because of stamina since they started with 9 and still had 88 hp, same as you did when you started with 1 and had 88 hp. Only thing that giving anyone that started with 1 8 more stamina will give the people that started later a advantage as their hp should go up with the change.


And i am not sure why.. but for some reason it keeps coming to me.. that i started in Jan 07 and had 3 stamina not 1.. i could be completely wrong... but it keeps sticking out in my head that after the first swamp camp mission i went to 4 not 2. (could just be me in a daze wouldn't surprise me at

 

[Dan59]

Some misinormations trought many posts here.
Old avatars started with 90 HP! At least me - pregold ones.
Comunity memory is short it seem.
We cud not raise our attributes for almost 2 years.
There were threads about that on official MA forum ( in time when they had one ) and latter on forum of pioneer society with Marco who keept telling that attributes move and is nothing wrong and all players contrary who didnt see any move.
Anyway i started with 20 in attributes and 9 in stamina and after years or two of playing i was still there at 20 and noone of lines moved.
And i used to play a lot.
There were no sweating, no oil rig, no wiki, no mentors, no players forum except restricted MA official one for short time, no other info anywhere.
Nobody did know anything of skills or what are skills effects.
Trought years some skills were renamed, some other wich previously newer existed were added ( like Alertnes.. )
Auction didn existed.
Skill were not sellable and nobody thinked ever on such possibility like chiping or something - nothing of that existed and nothing of that were ever mentioned as future possibility.
Weapons info did not display half ofl data you can see today .
We didnt know that we need to be lvl 100 to use weapons properly.
All we feelt was that more skilled is better.
We did not play for free. We all deposited regulary and paid for fun for long years.
Investing in Avatar didnt mean to gave possibility to sell skills later but just to be able to play better.

Now if newcomers wish to get those 8 stamina i dont have nothing contrary.
But if someone wish to togle that from old players then is a real asshole, sorry.

And here is litle food for hatters..
You had time 2 or more years to deposit, pay and play and do all missions.
I didnt do all missions on all planets but still most of them.
I have 41 stamina now.
That mean that all who wanted, deposited and worked for stamina cud have (41-8) at least 33 stamina and 3 calypso missions to do and all RT missions to do ( before latest nerf by ND in some of previous VU)
I talk about to those who were arround when MA introduced missions.
Newcomers who join EU today dont have anything to complain, they shud accept EU as is.

 

[Xen]

To all posting about the old time players having 8 more stamina then you do. If im understanding everything correctly.. the old time players started with 9 stamina and 88 hp.. new players started with 1 stamina and 88 hp. So other then the number being different how is this effecting anyone. Its not like they have almost 1 more hp piont then you because of stamina since they started with 9 and still had 88 hp, same as you did when you started with 1 and had 88 hp. Only thing that giving anyone that started with 1 8 more stamina will give the people that started later a advantage as their hp should go up with the change.


And i am not sure why.. but for some reason it keeps coming to me.. that i started in Jan 07 and had 3 stamina not 1.. i could be completely wrong... but it keeps sticking out in my head that after the first swamp camp mission i went to 4 not 2. (could just be me in a daze wouldn't surprise me at

Started with 90. We also started with 20 agility, strength, intel and psyche, which together with 9 stamina probably accounts for the the +2 hp. The other attributes starting at 1 don't really matter because skilling from 1 to 20 is really easy.

Anyway, give all these 1 stamina people +8. Just give people like me like +30 agility I would have gained if I started another couple years earlier.

 

[Jimmy B]

To all posting about the old time players having 8 more stamina then you do. If im understanding everything correctly.. the old time players started with 9 stamina and 88 hp.. new players started with 1 stamina and 88 hp. So other then the number being different how is this effecting anyone. Its not like they have almost 1 more hp piont then you because of stamina since they started with 9 and still had 88 hp, same as you did when you started with 1 and had 88 hp. Only thing that giving anyone that started with 1 8 more stamina will give the people that started later a advantage as their hp should go up with the change.

Started with 90. We also started with 20 agility, strength, intel and psyche, which together with 9 stamina probably accounts for the the +2 hp. The other attributes starting at 1 don't really matter because skilling from 1 to 20 is really easy.

Anyway, give all these 1 stamina people +8. Just give people like me like +30 agility I would have gained if I started another couple years earlier.

Yes, we started with 90. 20 Strength gives 1 HP, 20 Agility gives 0.5 HP, 20 Pysche gives 0.25 HP and 20 Intelligence gives 0.25 HP. So those alone would bring the 88 HP up to 90 HP. If my memory of old studies serves me well though, we actually started quite near 91 HP, which would make sense given that 9 Stamina would give a little under 1 HP.

Anyway, like others have pointed out, this discussion has taken us off topic somewhat. If there's more to be said, I suggest someone start a new thread.

 

[jaywalker]

Thank for the info, Dan..and others (can't recall allthe names now)That does clarify a few things

I think that we all , as individuals got a mixture of advantages and disadvantages, depending on exactly when we started how active we were etc. There is no way MA could level things out retrospectively, even if they wanted to.

The one really outstanding difference skill-wise is between those who got to high levels before the big nerf and the rest of us. Star , and other ubers have made an issue of this, asking for skilling at high levels to be un-nerfed and pointing out that newer players didn't stand a cat in hell's chance of ever catching them up. jdegre produced some informative graphs. So this much is definitely not based on myth, conjecture etc.

Now , if ubers can make an issue of this disparity, I guess we newer players can do the same, without that implying any bad feeling?

Interestingly, it now turns out that those oldies who didn't get very far before the nerf (probably the majjority) benefitted from high starting attributes AND the new higher skilling rate at lower levels. So they don't have a lot to complain about either. In fact everybody who never skilled too high benefits from that so, I don't why anyone shou;d be jealous about it.

I mean, whatever newbies now have, oldbies have too, so its daft to make a bone of contention out of of any improvements

To my mind, the real issue is not who had what way back when, but what do we all have today. and where can we go from here? If there's an effective ceiling that some reached 5 years ago, or mote, and some can never reach, that just isn''t a good situation.

I have nothing against old players at all. Just those individuals who a) whinge, whilst b) callling newer players whingers, and are c) downright rude and aggressive to all and sundry

That does not appear to be the case with you

I'd just like to correct you on ine crucial point:

And here is litle food for hatters..
You had time 2 or more years to deposit, pay and play and do all missions.
I didnt do all missions on all planets but still most of them.
I have 41 stamina now.
That mean that all who wanted, deposited and worked for stamina cud have (41-8) at least 33 stamina and 3 calypso missions to do and all RT missions to do ( before latest nerf by ND in some of previous VU)
I talk about to those who were arround when MA introduced missions.
Newcomers who join EU today dont have anything to complain, they shud accept EU as is.

Yes, a number of people have been saying that, and I wish they woulsd stop. If you check back over forum history, you'll see that there was much discission as to whether it was best to skill up to lev 80 before doing the missions. Which many people chose to do, and put much time and many PEd into that skilling, with Marco's encouragement. All the Calypso staff at the time assured us the missions were permanent. They did not add "BUT we're gonna nerf the rewards in a couple of years". If the only had added that caveat, we have rethought that strategy of course.

So, in view of this, can you understand why people felt let down when this rebalance was sprung in us? We're talking of peple who HAVE paid and played (as you put it) intensively, but just made the wrong choice.

I think that's something you didn't catch on to. It really gets up my nose when those who know better get on their high horse and say "You had plenty of time blah blah". Its only really true for those who already had high attributes when the missions came out For somebody with only 60 agil at that juncture, for example,and could skill to 61 in a week or two easily, it would clearly make more sense to skill up more first. So that's what people did.

MA have recognised this dilemma. That's why they introduced tokens. But the tokens don't really help those who were caught out; only those really new players who might have got caught out next time


jay

 

[jaywalker]

I didn't make the actual formula and the cost/value of skills and attributes etc, I just followed them so I don't know, however it appears there are still a lot of people who will be picking the attributes anyway so I guess the weighting was somewhat correct anyway?

Umm, just because Artrat writes a lot of posts, doesn't mean he's a "lot of people"

But seriously, think:

Recent developer notes have made it clear that MA don't want to capitalise on player myths, right?


Soooo...either attributes have a hidden function, or are planned to have more functions... or.... they changed their minds! They do want to capatalise on player myths after all. and even promote player myths by setting an unrealistically high value on attributes.


Which is it, hmm?

jay

 

[Dan59]

Well i was just tired to read so many posts about stamina and old players in this thread and some other older threads for a long time.

And about

I think that's something you didn't catch on to.

I tryed....
I tryed but my english is not so good and i dont like to be forum warrior deviating discussion to total off topic at cost to troll or at cost to be ridiculised - so maybe i didnt tryed realy hard.

But..
I tryed - https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?226783-ATTRIBUTES-mean-NOTHING&p=2929827&viewfull=1#post2929827

I tryed - https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?226759-Mission-Rewards-Rebalancing&p=2930746&viewfull=1#post2930746

 

[jaywalker]

I tryed....
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?226759-Mission-Rewards-Rebalancing&p=2930746&viewfull=1#post2930746

Indeed you did. And well said:

Dear MA just make it possible to skill up naturaly on higher levels and we dont need any adjustments to iron missions - in that case we dont need missions at all.
Your decision to sell us attributes trought missions for a lot higher price after 21. august do not solve flaws in skill system.

+ rep

jay

 

[Artrat]

Umm, just because Artrat writes a lot of posts, doesn't mean he's a "lot of people"

The majority will choose the tokens.

Make a poll and prove me wrong.

 

[Bolivar]

Why has the Aurli Bronze evade reward been cut back from 120 PED to 66 PED? That's a big cutback! :-(