Renting Gear System Solution

[Titossi]

First of all hi to all. I have played since 2004 and I think I have never post it here. However, this is an idea I have been working on for some time. Today after some conversation with my friend Xavier I decided to post this idea. He has some other ideas I think I will ask him to add to the thread later I could not wait for him to get it out there and see what do you guys think.

After old and recent events where some people abuse their friendship and barrow gear then sell it. Moreover, since MA does not help since all trades are final and that is the end of it. We should have a new system that allows us to rent or land equipment in game on a secure way.

The system should allow us to rent our gear UL mostly. Most of us have some gear that is park in the storage and we are not using at some moment. Those equipment could be rent and generate some revenue to the player and to MA as well (just dropping it so it is attractive).

There should be 2 modes of rental: Global and Individual. The Global system will work as an AH where we all search and find the items and rent them. Also, there should have an individual system, so we can rent a specific person so I don’t share that item on that price % to all public just a few that I decide. Why should exist the individual one:

Example;

My friend want to barrow my F-106 T8 for a few days. I don’t want to charge him, but I want to protect my stuff from been stolen. His % form my end will be 0% to land the item. He will still have to pay a fee to MA to use the system. If we don’t have the individual system in place anyone will be able to get that deal if is public.

The system could have XX% of TT by day week etc as a rental. If want to land it to someone just choose 0% then just pay for the decay if not fully repaired when returned. The return will occur immediate the time is up. If they want to extend the time a new deal will have to be placed after the current one is up with the same price % or different that will be up to the parts involved.

This way all items stored will create revenue to players and MA. We will be able to race tiers on the items for the use. Hunters will be able to move more loot for tiers and enhancers, crafters will have more sales for enhancers and general stuff related to hunting, and MA will create a new way to get revenue.

I hope this goes somewhere so we can have access to better gear and for some others make some profit. At the end MA will win from all scenarios.

 

[B-K]

With a system like that resellers will buy up all decent ul items and soon noone will be able to get their hands on them without paying the price of rent.
That would kill the nr 1 reason of using an UL (removing mu from your equipment)

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

As mentioned in the past, there are no plans to implement any system for renting/loaning items. I believe this stance is also very unlikely to change, for many reasons (for example, it would be devastating to the ingame economy).

 

[Sub-Zero]

As mentioned in the past, there are no plans to implement any system for renting/loaning items. I believe this stance is also very unlikely to change, for many reasons (for example, it would be devastating to the ingame economy).

What about all the ppl who rent gear (with collateral) or without collateral to compete in mayhem events? People don't need to invest in gear since they can just borrow their friends gear and win. Other people who invested some but not all top gear has less chance to win since other people can borrow better gear?
Is this not "devastating enough" for the economy?
Why not create a system where you have to register your UNLIMITED gear to the NPC or whatever before you can enter mayhem then your item becomes locked (not tradeable) for the duration of whole mayhem? Let's make mayhem fair. You wanna compete and win? Use your own gear.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

My whole rental service has to be more vigilante in the wake of recent actions or i should say lack of actions by mindark, as I had a support case documenting how to properly conduct a loan so that mindark will at minimum lock the player that committed the fraud. Now they are claiming they wont even do that. Mindark seems to want to avoid all responsibility for anything that bad eggs cause, how is that not devastating to the economy? Yet the moment someone does something that takes money out of mindarks pocket they are insta banned.... Double standards much.

 

[Slippery]

My whole rental service has to be more vigilante in the wake of recent actions or i should say lack of actions by mindark, as I had a support case documenting how to properly conduct a loan so that mindark will at minimum lock the player that committed the fraud. Now they are claiming they wont even do that. Mindark seems to want to avoid all responsibility for anything that bad eggs cause, how is that not devastating to the economy? Yet the moment someone does something that takes money out of mindarks pocket they are insta banned.... Double standards much.

Mindark do not want any rental services and that is good. All rental services should be closed and items should be locked to one avatar during events

 

[Titossi]

Well the idea came after we have a sour experience at our SOC Lena Girl was rob the guy borrow items and sold them now it is making globals with those peds and no action on MA side. We need a way to protect us from people like this. It is plain simple. We have evidence and support case and all still no action was taken. I just feel we are not appreciated as customers when we are so vulnerable to people like this. Just saying there should be some level of check in system if not planning to make this changes in game.

 

[Titossi]

FYI MA support case 397938

 

[Slippery]

Well the idea came after we have a sour experience at our SOC Lena Girl was rob the guy borrow items and sold them now it is making globals with those peds and no action on MA side. We need a way to protect us from people like this. It is plain simple. We have evidence and support case and all still no action was taken. I just feel we are not appreciated as customers when we are so vulnerable to people like this. Just saying there should be some level of check in system if not planning to make this changes in game.

So your socmate lend some items to a player without collateral and then the player sold the items?

 

[GradenFoss]

Well... let me state first, I really hate it to hear time after time after time from a new scam succeeded. Plz ppl be very careful and know what you′re doing, whom you get involved with.

This having said, I don′t think borrowing and renting are necessary in EU––or even desirable. Just obtain your gear and own it. Economy and gameplay rely on the distribution of and the access to items. Renting and borrowing seriously influence competition and counteract balancing. Ask the dog. ?

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

Mindark do not want any rental services and that is good. All rental services should be closed and items should be locked to one avatar during events

Well... let me state first, I really hate it to hear time after time after time from a new scam succeeded. Plz ppl be very careful and know what you′re doing, whom you get involved with.

This having said, I don′t think borrowing and renting are necessary in EU––or even desirable. Just obtain your gear and own it. Economy and gameplay rely on the distribution of and the access to items. Renting and borrowing seriously influence competition and counteract balancing. Ask the dog. ?

Mindark doesn't want liability. A safe rental system isn't a bad thing. And it would not destroy the economy. If done properly.

 

[Legends]

As mentioned in the past, there are no plans to implement any system for renting/loaning items. I believe this stance is also very unlikely to change, for many reasons (for example, it would be devastating to the ingame economy).

First of all thanks for chiming in here, and I agree but I wish you would also talk about why you don't get involved when people get scammed, this might help the community understand a little better the reasoning behind it, since right now it seems to many that MA just doesn't care about people getting scammed in the game.

 

[Slippery]

Mindark doesn't want liability. A safe rental system isn't a bad thing. And it would not destroy the economy. If done properly.

How would you prevent 5 players/funds from owning a lot of stuff and very few items will be up for sale? More rental services alongside resellers will take to many items off the market. Different types of reselling already does this to various items.
Implementing renting services will disrupt the economy in some way and you know it. You just want it so you can make more money from it

I have been here for almost 15 years and this "rental service suggestion" always come up after someone gets scammed. I feel sorry for the players that do, but you don't fix stupid actions with more stupid implementations. Rule of thumb, I would lend items to a person that I would also lend money to in real life. Be careful in here!

Regarding investigations of scammers, this is tricky to do and requires a lot of manual work (expensive for MA) and therefore they say "All trades are final".

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

Why not create a system where you have to register your UNLIMITED gear to the NPC or whatever before you can enter mayhem then your item becomes locked (not tradeable) for the duration of whole mayhem? Let's make mayhem fair. You wanna compete and win? Use your own gear.

Well, I can certainly pass on this suggestion to the dev team, but it is quite a bit of a different than having an official system to allow risk-free lending/renting.

as I had a support case documenting how to properly conduct a loan so that mindark will at minimum lock the player that committed the fraud. Now they are claiming they wont even do that. Mindark seems to want to avoid all responsibility for anything that bad eggs cause, how is that not devastating to the economy?

Sorry, but you mean that you sent a support case detailing how you were planning to loan something to someone, and you hoped Mindark would return the item and/or ban the people it was lent to if they did not honor the agreement?

The problem with that is essentially the same as the reason behind the "no naming/shaming" rule of the forum; it would still be a word-against-word situation. The two parties may have agreed upon one thing ingame, then changed the conditions in a private discussion out-of-game. Whoever handles that support case would then risk having to make a decision based on limited information. It is very difficult to actually prove a lot of scams, and falsifying evidence would be easy for either side of such disputes.

This is why Mindark has tried to be very clear in that we do not take responsibility when someone lends/rents out items, and suggest that people avoid situations that may cause them to become victims of a scam. Obviously, it's always sad when someone does have this happen to them, but it is simply not always realistic or even possible to prove such things.

Regardless, always submit a support case if you feel you have been scammed. While it often always be proven, there are of course situations where it can be, or there may simply be some misunderstandings that could be resolved.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

How would you prevent 5 players/funds from owning a lot of stuff and very few items will be up for sale? More rental services alongside resellers will take to many items off the market. Different types of reselling already does this to various items.
Implementing renting services will disrupt the economy in some way and you know it. You just want it so you can make more money from it

I have been here for almost 15 years and this "rental service suggestion" always come up after someone gets scammed. I feel sorry for the players that do, but you don't fix stupid actions with more stupid implementations. Rule of thumb, I would lend items to a person that I would also lend money to in real life. Be careful in here!

Regarding investigations of scammers, this is tricky to do and requires a lot of manual work (expensive for MA) and therefore they say "All trades are final".

Actually this kind of update would kill my income. So no real personal benefit if they added it as almost half the stuff I rent is on behalf of others.


These players. funds, already do. this would just give players access to the toys hiding behind the walls.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

Well, I can certainly pass on this suggestion to the dev team, but it is quite a bit of a different than having an official system to allow risk-free lending/renting.



Sorry, but you mean that you sent a support case detailing how you were planning to loan something to someone, and you hoped Mindark would return the item and/or ban the people it was lent to if they did not honor the agreement?

The problem with that is essentially the same as the reason behind the "no naming/shaming" rule of the forum; it would still be a word-against-word situation. The two parties may have agreed upon one thing ingame, then changed the conditions in a private discussion out-of-game. Whoever handles that support case would then risk having to make a decision based on limited information. It is very difficult to actually prove a lot of scams, and falsifying evidence would be easy for either side of such disputes.

This is why Mindark has tried to be very clear in that we do not take responsibility when someone lends/rents out items, and suggest that people avoid situations that may cause them to become victims of a scam. Obviously, it's always sad when someone does have this happen to them, but it is simply not always realistic or even possible to prove such things.

Regardless, always submit a support case if you feel you have been scammed. While it often always be proven, there are of course situations where it can be, or there may simply be some misunderstandings that could be resolved.

Actually I had loaned out an item to a friend and they stole it and I was told the requirements to where mindark can get involved and at do something about it. It outlined the requirements to consider something an actual scam and what mindark could and would not do. And it had nothing to do with my rental business.

 

[Legends]

What about all the ppl who rent gear (with collateral) or without collateral to compete in mayhem events? People don't need to invest in gear since they can just borrow their friends gear and win. Other people who invested some but not all top gear has less chance to win since other people can borrow better gear?
Is this not "devastating enough" for the economy?
Why not create a system where you have to register your UNLIMITED gear to the NPC or whatever before you can enter mayhem then your item becomes locked (not tradeable) for the duration of whole mayhem? Let's make mayhem fair. You wanna compete and win? Use your own gear.

That's a terrible idea, for at least 3 reasons:

1. It actually wouldn't stop people from renting out their UL gear, it just would make it so they have to choose between using it themselves or renting it out, and would limit to one customer per Mayhem.

2. Would kill the market for people wanting to buy and use better gear during a Mayhem to try to improve their score. People wouldn't buy something in the middle of Mayhem in case it was already registered by someone else and they can't use it.

3. If you registered your Laser rifle but in the middle of a run, you risk going over the skill cap now you can't switch to BLP or melee or MF. That would essentially put a cap on how many runs you can actually do during the Mayhem: as many runs as you can until your skills go over the limit...

 

[Deleted member 58836]

If you truly believe that Rentals would negatively disrupt the economy, unfortunately, you probably shouldn't be making economic decisions.

Take the Real Estate market in real life. It's alive and kicking as is the real estate rental market. It's one of the best investments you can make IRL; owning and renting. Prices have gone up steadily with rentals and it would only further create more competition which increases economic activity. The market will adjust depending on supply and demand and that varies in Entropia depending on the time of year and what new content is being released.

There's a simple implementation that can be done and that is add another table to the database to track OWNERSHIP of items similarly how the "Protected" status works. This way, if you were to loan/rent/borrow an item to someone, the ownership of that item is still tracked and while ownership does not match the avatar who has the item, the item CANNOT be sold or traded. The owner could "recall" the items to their storage/inventory at any time or if you want to develop a little further, add a timeframe on the recall so the owner cannot lend out, take peds and then recall right away.

Other things could then be build off that system where MindArk would collect a % of the rental fee that an owner charges, for instance, making adjustments to the Trade Window to accommodate trades like Banks currently do... when the rental expires it's automatically returned to the owner. This would generate revenue for MindArk as well as players who've gone out of their way to collect unique items.

Now, I understand that the fear is that only a select few would then own ALL the desirable items and the only way to get one would be to rent it... but let's look at the state of Real Estate in Entropia already... There are hundreds of estates sitting empty owned by Marcus Callendar the Estate Broker -- thus only select few have access to estates in Entropia. This is already happening and sponsored by MindArk seeing as the estate broker is a MindArk owned avatar. So why the hypocrisy?

 

[Sub-Zero]

That's a terrible idea, for at least 3 reasons:

1. It actually wouldn't stop people from renting out their UL gear, it just would make it so they have to choose between using it themselves or renting it out, and would limit to one customer per Mayhem.

2. Would kill the market for people wanting to buy and use better gear during a Mayhem to try to improve their score. People wouldn't buy something in the middle of Mayhem in case it was already registered by someone else and they can't use it.

3. If you registered your Laser rifle but in the middle of a run, you risk going over the skill cap now you can't switch to BLP or melee or MF. That would essentially put a cap on how many runs you can actually do during the Mayhem: as many runs as you can until your skills go over the limit...

1. It wouldn't stop completely no. But it would diminish a lot of it. One rich dude with friends can borrow all his gear and all place in top scores. Now only the rich dude who actually invested can do that if he wants or let one of his friends do it. With renting system it'd be worse as someone else said in this thread the renters would buy up all the top gear in order to milk people during mayhem by renting out their gear. Lowering the chance of someone being able to invest in said gear.

2. People would know their gear would be locked before they enter mayhem and wouldn't enter with that gear unless they had no plans of selling it during mayhem. So I disagree.

3. That happens even if you rent gear or not if you're that close to your max lvl on your category, simply chip out more.

This would also prevent people from using OP high dps weapons like the terminator that has low requirement and place in lower categories with alts or let their friends place there with such weapons.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

If you truly believe that Rentals would negatively disrupt the economy, unfortunately, you probably shouldn't be making economic decisions.

Take the Real Estate market in real life. It's alive and kicking as is the real estate rental market. It's one of the best investments you can make IRL; owning and renting. Prices have gone up steadily with rentals and it would only further create more competition which increases economic activity. The market will adjust depending on supply and demand and that varies in Entropia depending on the time of year and what new content is being released.

There's a simple implementation that can be done and that is add another table to the database to track OWNERSHIP of items similarly how the "Protected" status works. This way, if you were to loan/rent/borrow an item to someone, the ownership of that item is still tracked and while ownership does not match the avatar who has the item, the item CANNOT be sold or traded. The owner could "recall" the items to their storage/inventory at any time or if you want to develop a little further, add a timeframe on the recall so the owner cannot lend out, take peds and then recall right away.

Other things could then be build off that system where MindArk would collect a % of the rental fee that an owner charges, for instance, making adjustments to the Trade Window to accommodate trades like Banks currently do... when the rental expires it's automatically returned to the owner. This would generate revenue for MindArk as well as players who've gone out of their way to collect unique items.

Now, I understand that the fear is that only a select few would then own ALL the desirable items and the only way to get one would be to rent it... but let's look at the state of Real Estate in Entropia already... There are hundreds of estates sitting empty owned by Marcus Callendar the Estate Broker -- thus only select few have access to estates in Entropia. This is already happening and sponsored by MindArk seeing as the estate broker is a MindArk owned avatar. So why the hypocrisy?

This.

Also. My service fills the gap that Mindark refuses to. It is not for all players. But there is a demand and market for it, otherwise I would not be making money and mayhem winning high tier items would not be worth so much... The issue is that of trust. Trust in Mindark to do what you would expect them to do, and trust in the players you deal with to honor their agreements. I thought I could trust the first, now I know better and will adapt accordingly. I knew I could not trust the second so I came up with every possible way I could think of to make it safe for myself. and for those I rent on behalf of.


There is also another dimension to this that people fail to understand, sometimes it is not worth owning certain items because of their cost if you can not make full use out of them to warrant the expenditure. That is a gap renting can fill and does, when the prices justify it.

 

[Legends]

1. It wouldn't stop completely no. But it would diminish a lot of it. One rich dude with friends can borrow all his gear and all place in top scores. Now only the rich dude who actually invested can do that if he wants or let one of his friends do it. With renting system it'd be worse as someone else said in this thread the renters would buy up all the top gear in order to milk people during mayhem by renting out their gear. Lowering the chance of someone being able to invest in said gear.

2. People would know their gear would be locked before they enter mayhem and wouldn't enter with that gear unless they had no plans of selling it during mayhem. So I disagree.

3. That happens even if you rent gear or not if you're that close to your max lvl on your category, simply chip out more.

This would also prevent people from using OP high dps weapons like the terminator that has low requirement and place in smaller categories with alts or let their friends place there with such weapons.

Sorry that may have been a poor choice of words on #2, what I mean is you force people to choose between using an item for the Mayhem or try to sell and make it impossible to do both, so that puts a new limit on the market for UL gear, not good.

For #3, I'm against any system that make chipping out the only possible solution in order to try and win in your Mayhem Cat.

 

[Sub-Zero]

Sorry that may have been a poor choice of words on #2, what I mean is you force people to choose between using an item for the Mayhem or try to sell and make it impossible to do both, so that puts a new limit on the market for UL gear, not good.

For #3, I'm against any system that make chipping out the only possible solution in order to try and win in your Mayhem Cat.

Clarification: Your items would only be locked for trade during the duration of the mayhem event. This doesn't mean you cant use other new items (that too would get locked) during the duration of the mayhem event.
#3 you can use (L) high dps in other prof if you must.

MA could also make it possible to abandon the mission and then get your items automatically unlocked. You can do that 3 times I believe currently before disqualification. But for your second abandon you wouldn't be able to unlock the items until mayhem is over. I think that'd be reasonable.

I'm sure MA would be able to come up with a good solution. The important is the basic idea. Rentals doesn't belong in mayhem competition. To keep fairness for all who invested and those who haven't and dont have rich friends or the ability to rent out uber items.

 

[GradenFoss]

With vehicles, there is already a system in place that allows for others to use, and to recall the item.
So, this is obviously not the point.

According to posts, some seem to forget that not only the customer might scam, the lender might also.
Each case of dispute will be a mess.

I also don′t see why players should warm to a rental system they won′t benefit/profit from, only others would.


[Moderated: 2.3 - Personal disputes]

 

[Legends]

Clarification: Your items would only be locked for trade during the duration of the mayhem event. This doesn't mean you cant use other new items (that too would get locked) during the duration of the mayhem event.
#3 you can use (L) high dps in other prof if you must.

MA could also make it possible to abandon the mission and then get your items automatically unlocked. You can do that 3 times I believe currently before disqualification. But for your second abandon you wouldn't be able to unlock the items until mayhem is over. I think that'd be reasonable.

I'm sure MA would be able to come up with a good solution. The important is the basic idea. Rentals doesn't belong in mayhem competition. To keep fairness for all who invested and those who haven't and dont have rich friends or the ability to rent out uber items.

Well I think that participating in Mayhem is already complicated enough Sub-Zero and I don't think it's wise to make it even more complicated.

I do understand the problem you are trying to solve, i.e. unfairness due to people sharing/renting the best gear between them, but all groups (societies, alliances, clans, etc...) draw strength through numbers and working as a team so knowing people in Entropia has to have some benefits too. The way I see it, this is one of the few benefits that socs have in EU and I don't think MA needs to intervene or kill it.

 

[Sub-Zero]

Well I think that participating in Mayhem is already complicated enough Sub-Zero and I don't think it's wise to make it even more complicated.

I do understand the problem you are trying to solve, i.e. unfairness due to people sharing/renting the best gear between them, but all groups (societies, alliances, clans, etc...) draw strength through numbers and working as a team so knowing people in Entropia has to have some benefits too. The way I see it, this is one of the few benefits that socs have in EU and I don't think MA needs to intervene or kill it.

Your opinion. Mayhem is a SOLO event. And the rules states:

Rules & Notes
This event is intended for solo hunters. Any attempt at abusing team mechanics or any other Entropia Universe systems or features in order to gain an unfair advantage over other participants will be grounds for disqualification from the event, forfeiture of any prizes, and possible sanctions imposed on one’s Entropia Universe account.

I view being able to share one's top gear to friends in order to give them an UNFAIR advantage (imo) to place in top scores as abuse and grounds to disqualification. And unfair to all other who don't have that capability or don't wanna rely on renting gear with collateral.

 

[Legends]

Your opinion. Mayhem is a SOLO event. And the rules states:

I view being able to share one's top gear to friends in order for them to give them an UNFAIR advantage (imo) to place in top scores as abuse and grounds to disqualification. And unfair to all other who don't have that capability or don't wanna rely on renting gear with collateral.

Well then we just have a difference of opinion that's all.

It is still only 1 gun, 1 amp, 1 armor set, so only 1 person can use it at any given time, and the Mayhem is a limited time event, so I don't really agree that it is an unfair advantage. Only 1 person can use the gear at one time. If the owner lends it out to someone, then he cannot use it himself. Maybe he has a real life situation and cannot make good use of the items but doesn't want to sell it so decides to rent/loan it just for this Mayhem. Most rentals are probably not like this but some of them are. I don't think that's unfair in any way.

And if you 'lock' everybody into the gear they own, then the Mayhem becomes even more a pay-to-win event. The best gear is the rarest, the price to purchase it or rent it before Mayhem starts will just go up, and I suspect that the situation of seeing the same names always being in the top would just get worse because it's whoever can afford it.

 

[eyeshark]

I wish UL gear didn’t exist. If only that cat could be put back in the bag.

 

[JD RACING]

if you can rent out how about MA start renting out also all the money cld can make of renting also

 

[forgo]

If I were to be honest, I have been buying lots of UL for the exclusive reason of I can, and it keeps it out of the pool to be shared among accounts, if MA wont deal with it, we can. They writeoffs to me.

 

[Legends]

Here is the real answer which MindArk doesn't want to give because they are afraid to appear greedy:

"The Economy of Entropia hums and churns through the active grinding of the majority of participants. The potential to loot a very desirable and very rare item plays a significant role in incentivizing hunters to grind large quantities of mobs over extended periods. We believe that if we were to make it easier and safer for participants to "rent" these rare and highly desirable items, we would in effect discourage grinding and this would have a significant impact on the overall economy of Entropia, as well as MA's revenues.

"For that reason, it was decided long ago that we at MindArk could not support such a system." - MA