Resellers, Vipers, Fake Sales, and Liquidity Providers - Your Guide to Navigating P2P Trades

[San]

I think there is a grey zone between opportunism which is a part of human nature, even all of nature as pertaining to evolution, and outright criminal intent to deceive and defraud. We tend to hate opportunism and speculation to varying degrees, but at the same time they are the driving force for any business. In our case these are the businesses which provide liquidity in the same way that ancient grain speculators provided price stability throughout the seasons. There is a point where this turns sour for everyone, but where this occurs exactly is individual.

However, there should actually be an objectively measurable optimum between a morality too strict so it stifles business and a degree of freedom that lets thieves get away. Both extremes reduce collective willingness to engage in trades with one another. One erodes flexibility and the other erodes trust. The viewpoint each of us has on the spectrum makes it difficult to gauge to which extent this may have been considered by the developer, hence dissatisfaction is often voiced from either side. What should they do?

 

[Alina]

What really changed is the forum rules don't apply like before. When you had an item on PCF u couldn't sale it on item auction for example. Now everyone is doing whatever they want and as 5$ said they create fake bids. Also i saw a situation with a reseller that involved 5$, that dude created a fake sale item cuz he knew someone selling the X item so this way he didn't had to keep any peds in it so he was just looking for a buyer without actually owning the item(to make few k peds fast)

 

[ZPF]

One thing I've always been curious about is how much wash trading goes on via the auction house to manipulate the value of uber-expensive items.

Probably not much, right? The auction fees can rack up pretty quickly.

But it's one of many reasons you probably shouldn't take the in-game "market value" too seriously for UL gear.

 

[The Mind]

Probably not much, right? The auction fees can rack up pretty quickly.

Why would you pay for something you can do for free on this forum with a:
"Buy uber 2.0 weapon (i/we conveniently sell) and you will be as successful as i am. Make your dreams come true today".

 

[jwestonmoss]

Why would you pay for something you can do for free on this forum with a:
"Buy uber 2.0 weapon (i/we conveniently sell) and you will be as successful as i am. Make your dreams come true today".

i cackle every time i hear someone use the phrase "ped-printer"

 

[atomicstorm]

What really changed is the forum rules don't apply like before. When you had an item on PCF u couldn't sale it on item auction for example. Now everyone is doing whatever they want and as 5$ said they create fake bids. Also i saw a situation with a reseller that involved 5$, that dude created a fake sale item cuz he knew someone selling the X item so this way he didn't had to keep any peds in it so he was just looking for a buyer without actually owning the item(to make few k peds fast)

They still get scrubbed. You just have to report them. The issue is more that it is tedious to keep up with and now people use trading alts which will be different than their PCF avatar.

 

[ZPF]

Why would you pay for something you can do for free on this forum with a:
"Buy uber 2.0 weapon (i/we conveniently sell) and you will be as successful as i am. Make your dreams come true today".

Maybe the wealthy n00bs you're trying to scam don't read the forums

 

[atomicstorm]

What really changed is the forum rules don't apply like before. When you had an item on PCF u couldn't sale it on item auction for example. Now everyone is doing whatever they want and as 5$ said they create fake bids. Also i saw a situation with a reseller that involved 5$, that dude created a fake sale item cuz he knew someone selling the X item so this way he didn't had to keep any peds in it so he was just looking for a buyer without actually owning the item(to make few k peds fast)

I recently tested what I put in the OP through buy and sell threads. Like clockwork the opposing threads came up by the usual suspects (notice who did not react to my thread).

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

I recently tested what I put in the OP through buy and sell threads. Like clockwork the opposing threads came up by the usual suspects (notice who did not react to my thread).

Happens everytime too, it's so blatant and those are the times MA/ludvig/morax has to send a message to the person and be like "Yo chill"

 

[jak]

@711

Please sticky this in the forum trade section!!!!

 

[jak]

This is a very good compilation, the things you talk about, most of us have seen them. Years ago I made a suggestion calling on Mindark to regulate trade at least a little bit, not even like IRL, at least remove the fracking (known!!!) scammers, obvious trading alts, new avatrars cornering the market, constantly selling high level crafted stuff, moving alongside higher level avatars one after the other... all of this is too obvious, all these avatars do is destroy the economy and drive people away from the game. When you want people to invest in your project, you need to make a good impression, crate a safe, regulated environment, not a cesspool of nolife s that do nothing useful or stand near the auctioneer 24/7.

Mindark, you need to force everyone to engage with the lootpool, 0 PED cycled = 0 trades available, be it through auction or P2P. When you start cycling, then you can trade, restrictions shouldn't be too harsh, and correlation loose, but there should be some rules in place to prevent the crap that's been going on for years.

FYI, Shady market manipulation on Auction is an offense I've heard of players getting perm-locked for. If you have evidence, support ticket it providing as much evidence as you can. MA does act on this!

 

[atomicstorm]

FYI, Shady market manipulation on Auction is an offense I've heard of players getting perm-locked for. If you have evidence, support ticket it providing as much evidence as you can. MA does act on this!

Like the 9 avatar crafting mafia that got banned a couple years ago.

They never did anything about the mining amp cartel though that were price fixing. Though the explosive projectiles introduction greatly reduced their profits.

 

[MikeH]

Anonymous/ Fake bid is real issue I lost 2 good opportunities/Upgrades in the past for this particular reason.

But there is another side when you put a sales thread people will put the sb in pm "Hey look i have a paycheck coming in 10 days you can keep the sb for me if someone outbids it's fine but keep my name within us" after 10 days gf won't allow to depo that much sum in a game , someone in the thread can relate to it

 

[The Great Adventurer]

it's one of many reasons you probably shouldn't take the in-game "market value" too seriously for UL gear.

The in-game auction is the only reliable source of price information. It may be manipulated at times but it does cost PED to do so and if you suspect manipulation you're able to send in support cases with your information. I've personally done so many times and have coincidently seen some players absent from the game thereafter. There's at least a trail to be followed.

This forum is the most manipulated market, hands down. The only reason it exists is so that MindArk can, if they choose, monitor it, whereas if other buying/selling sites pop up they are not in control. The sad fact is, they're understaffed and unable to take on the load of moderating their own forum to the degree that's necessary.

There's a double edge sword solution to the problem and that's to disable private trades. This forces all trades to the auction where price is tracked and allows MindArk the ability to monitor the economy. I would say that a middle ground solution is to enable private trades between Society Members only. The Auction and Exchange can act as the sole marketplace. Resellers would be extremely upset though.

 

[jak]

Like the 9 avatar crafting mafia that got banned a couple years ago.

They never did anything about the mining amp cartel though that were price fixing. Though the explosive projectiles introduction greatly reduced their profits.

Do you mean the mining amp exploit that people were able to repair the L amp 13s? I know for a fact there were more than a few avatars perm-locked due to that fiasco. I have a friend who is a Swedish lawyer who was hired to help with someone who lost a ton of money who only bought some ores from one of them and was locked.

Or do you just mean the fact that only X number of mining amp BPs were in the game and the owners of the amp BPs wanted to get as much peds as they could so they would all agree on a nice MU to sell the amps at? You kinda have to blame MA for that as MA does have a pretty steep rake on crafting.

 

[atomicstorm]

Do you mean the mining amp exploit that people were able to repair the L amp 13s? I know for a fact there were more than a few avatars perm-locked due to that fiasco. I have a friend who is a Swedish lawyer who was hired to help with someone who lost a ton of money who only bought some ores from one of them and was locked.

Or do you just mean the fact that only X number of mining amp BPs were in the game and the owners of the amp BPs wanted to get as much peds as they could so they would all agree on a nice MU to sell the amps at? You kinda have to blame MA for that as MA does have a pretty steep rake on crafting.

It's a lot to break down without naming people. The 9 crafting mafia was not entirely about mining amps, though his main did craft amps.

 

[PreyNaika]

some people are simply paranoid too. like big time bad for health paranoid

 

[Alina]

some people are simply paranoid too. like big time bad for health paranoid

Not really, thing is some resellers are really doing shady things on this forum also some players really overpaid over the years, like now first imk2 twen resold by a reseller for 350k (with tokens think was 140-150k ?) )

 

[TheOneOmega]

It seems like you've made a good faith attempt to provide a balanced perspective. I won't go through line by line. I'll just mention a few thoughts which struck me as possible areas for refinement.

First, it's not really clear who the intended audience is. The thread title says "Your Guide to Navigating P2P Trades," but accurately identifying counterparty misconduct is usually a far more difficult problem than evaluating and conducting trades with approximate economic rationality. The latter involves weighing the relative utilities you expect from two bundles of goods (the bundle you would give and the bundle you would receive) in light of your personal set of circumstances, preferences, and goals. The former involves weighing the same utilities in light of every possible set of circumstances, preferences, and goals, or at least every set the counterparty may reasonably intend their offer to reach. This doesn't always require exhaustive, brute-force iteration, i.e., finding a seller offering an item in the Trade channel for 10000 PED while there are available copies identical in every way on every planet's auction for 500 PED probably gets you most of the way to a conclusion (perhaps pending knowledge of why the seller is making this offer; it does come up that sellers offer QR 1.0 Technician blueprints because they simply don't think to check the Technician, so maybe our 500 PED item seller has mixed up two items and the situation can be easily corrected). In general however, it is much easier to construct heuristics to teach players how to avoid offers in poor alignment with their own interests than heuristics to teach players how to identify offers in poor alignment with at least one possible player's interests, or even their perceived interests (players making sub-optimal decisions on the basis of imperfect information is a necessary prerequisite for personal growth in just about any game).

Next, some of the claims made in a decisive tone seem questionable, and others perhaps worthy of inclusion but in need of further qualification (although some effort has clearly been made to qualify claims). For example, it isn't clear how "Players who corner markets, ergo exploiting resource cap design of the game, to maximize profits" is a meaningful subclass of Viper. All scarcity in Entropia is ultimately artificial, and pretty much every time a player purchases an item for investment purposes, they believe future tension between demand and artificial resource caps will culminate in personal profit. The "market-cornerer" is doing the same as most or all investors, just with more capital relative to a market's resource cap. If a player finds herself in possession of 7 out of 10 copies of an item, it may well be that the best divestment strategy is to be more patient than the rest of the market. This is fundamentally different than making trades for the purpose of manipulating an item's Market Value for profit; the price differential generated by the market impact of the "market-cornerer" reflects a genuine snapshot of supply/demand forces, at least fixing all other assumptions about well-functioning markets in place. Maybe we could imagine a better resource cap algorithm.

Finally, although some qualifications are present, I worry about the degree to which this guide hints at the idea of inferring misconduct from overly simplistic metrics, such as the percentage difference between offer price and Market Value, so I want to strongly underscore the statement that prices are both subjective and not always properly tethered to Market Value history. Market Values are much more reliable for items with high trading volumes than for items only transacted every now and then. Isolated PCF trade threads convey very little information about an item's value. Additional care should be taken to account for blueprint QR, non-linearity in P2P value as a function of TT Value especially (but not exclusively) on (L) vehicles, and many other details that require time and exploration of markets to learn. The first market transaction for a Welding Wire Blueprint was at around 400 PED. The second occurred years later, if I recall correctly at around 14000 PED. Neither was necessarily a scam. MindArk just didn't have a reputation at the time of the first transaction for so radically bottlenecking the supply of an unlimited item without an unlimited economic substitute. The information available to market participants changed, but one might need to look beyond simplistic metrics to appreciate the complete story. Unfortunately, there's a very noticeable Dunning-Kruger effect in this domain; the players most eager to publicly identify specific instances of misconduct tend to be, on average, among the most poorly informed about both the particularities of Entropia, and the general economic principles and models, that might lead to multiple reasonable interpretations of the acts they observe. Events which could be a springboard for healthy and productive discourse devolve into wildly emotionally loaded attempts to instantiate moral panics, with the goal of getting others to react to, rather than reflect upon, a reseller's behavior. Such social manipulation attacks can have real consequences for the reseller that are not easy to disregard, independent of how well or poorly the attacks establish their key claims. One Entropian was banned from #calytrade following such a moral panic initiated solely on the basis of a single offer price. I would exercise a great deal of caution in expressing any statement even in the neighborhood of defining a legitimate reseller in terms of their offer prices, or percentage difference between offer prices and Market Values, rather than some combination of their intentions and/or the ethics of their business practices (i.e., do they lie to counterparties), to avoid adding fuel to these sorts of low-rigor social manipulation attacks.

 

[The Mind]

OP made a compilation of defined types of actions, same as a book of criminal law would.
It is not concerned with most, if any, of the morale dilemmas, or possible mistakes, that subject may experience and is presumed to have ill intent.

 

[Cartoon Spoon]

Resellers

Entropia Universe largely has a stagnant economy. The way the auction house, shops, and chat channels are designed, creates a stagnant economy unless there is serious, usually seasonal demand for specific consumables. Resellers act as liquidity providers and market movers to keep the flow of the economy moving. They allow players to sell items and new players to sell their loot to keep playing. Resellers are also the main driving force behind stabilizing of item prices. Some exceptions to this are those who corner markets, see vipers.

The expectations of a reseller are not to give a player market value for loot or items. There must be reward for the increased risk and time expenditure for reselling. The greater the risk, specifically in items, the bigger the reward required.

Players do not have to sell to resellers if they do not like the price they offer. That's market functions. If you sell your loot to a reseller, then you accept that the value they offered was acceptable.

Example of a reseller:

• Price of TWEN token is 0.92, reseller offers 0.8 or 0.85.
• Player wants to sell X gun 50,000 peds, reseller offers 42,000 PED.
• Reseller buys ores and enmatter on a different planet for approximately > 80% of market, resells for profit on a different planet.

An active, thriving economy needs less resellers to keep the market moving. [Mindark take note]

So if we look at this another way, the ONLY players who are creating MU are the people who do not use, craft, hunt, or mine.. Just sit in the AH all day??
I think the day of Entropian reckoning may soon be upon us, well I am hoping it is.
Another a$$ licking PM from that reseller will make me sick..

 

[jwestonmoss]

So if we look at this another way, the ONLY players who are creating MU are the people who do not use, craft, hunt, or mine.. Just sit in the AH all day??
I think the day of Entropian reckoning may soon be upon us, well I am hoping it is.
Another a$$ licking PM from that reseller will make me sick..

the people who create MU are people who value their time more than they value the small amount of money that can be saved doing everything themselves

if i buy 100p worth of something from the AH for 106% i have paid 60 US cents of markup. i figure, if i hunt that stuff myself, i'll lose at least 5% of my cycle on average anyway, so my opportunity cost is what....1%, maybe 2%? effectively only really losing out on 20 cents of markup. lots of people willing to pay that

if something is a lot rarer, well, that only makes sense. i could grind for weeks or i could pay a few dollars.

 

[Legends]

I think the timing on such a thread is very good; right now there is a tremendous amount of "trading" happening in game, with probably the highest number of "traders" I've seen certainly in the last 7-8 years. All these traders holding onto items of value and hoping for a profitable sale is a sort of sponge, absorbing all of the excess items in game.

With people throughout the world generally having less disposable income due to rising interest rates, I think we're about to see what happens when people are forced to sell things at prices they weren't prepared to sell for before.

Sky is falling threads are coming... Sooner than you think.

"Sky is falling" threads are coming, mark my words...