Response on Bad Loot and my MA tracked 91% Returns

The Abomb

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So I put in a support case for the extremely sub par returns and linked the other thread questioning the terrible loot that the community is experiencing. You know to get the ball rolling on a discussion and what is accepted and expected. Also to help MA figure out what is wrong with the loot. I asked several questions that I was able to get some responses too.

One of which was my official returns for the last 3 months from MA.
Your hunting returns for 2019:

October, 92.47%
November, 91,89%
December, 92.91%

Obviously well below what is expected with someone that has 53 level animal looter along with over 3 Dpp and hunts an extreme amount of mobs all over the Entropia Universe. However in the below message and didn't get an answer to why it is so low and well lower than what is expected. Obviously support can't shed that type of light on this but still its time to open dialog about these type of returns.

It was stated what matters is "Skills, Gear and Knowledge of the Universe"

Obviously I don't think even a new player with zero looter should be getting 91% for a month. Much less a seasoned player that is going off the model MA provides for us of attaining Skills, Gear and Knowledge of the Universe.

Take this information in the response as just that and hopefully we will have better transparency and MA will figure out a way for players that love this game, don't get well below the expected returns. It seems like it isn't in our hands at all the last 3 months. Not exactly sure what is wrong with the loot but something has to be addressed. This situation makes the future not so bright to start the new year for the hunting community.

Edit- In before someone says I need to kill more mobs. I have killed literally millions of mobs. Today my first 1,300 mobs killed yielded 90.2% TT. Loot is just flat no matter what.

I wish you all luck out there

Thanks Abomb

So with that I will link the official response
 
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Legends

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I like their response to your support case, actually. And I have a feeling that lots more people will be putting in support cases like yours to find out what their 'official' returns have been over the last 3 months :)
 

Alina

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Oke can you share your hunting setup please
 

kingofaces

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90%+ TT looks pretty good by most standards, so it's tough to call it bad loot. Even before loot 2.0 for hunting people used to say you'd get about 90% TT returns, and that generally used to be the case for mining (I think someone even published a scientific paper on that rate awhile back).

As MA alluded to, making up that other 10% deals with real-life skill and knowledge, in large part finding good MU. That's what all us miners have to do, as do hunters and crafters. That's what we were expected to learn as newbie as you bring up, so it doesn't really look like that aspect has changed for new players.
 

The Abomb

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I like their response to your support case, actually. And I have a feeling that lots more people will be putting in support cases like yours to find out what their 'official' returns have been over the last 3 months :)
It was a helpful response! My initial support case I feel maintained being constructive so I got some constructive answers. So for that I do thank the nice person that gave me some answers.

I feel like information and transparency is key and it's obvious I love this game, perhaps too much. So with that it bothers me when it gets like this. When as a community we are experiencing well below what is expected. Key word expected So what changed? Who knows for sure someone at the office and I am sure they are reading this thread hopefully.

With that said why have my monthly returns took a crushing sharp dive that caused me to yield and say okay now it's time for a support case. The same crushing returns that many are experiencing. Hopefully when MA changes something we know what changes were made. That we can deposit with confidence and enjoy the game.
 

The Abomb

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90%+ TT looks pretty good by most standards, so it's tough to call it bad loot. Even before loot 2.0 for hunting people used to say you'd get about 90% TT returns, and that generally used to be the case for mining (I think someone even published a scientific paper on that rate awhile back).

As MA alluded to, making up that other 10% deals with real-life skill and knowledge, in large part finding good MU. That's what all us miners have to do, as do hunters and crafters. That's what we were expected to learn as newbie as you bring up, so it doesn't really look like that aspect has changed for new players.
I am sorry in hunting expected is 95-98% TT Anything below 95% is just supposed to be due to low looter skill and bad gear/mob choices. Most hunters should be near the 98% that hunt enough. I can't fathom 91% long term TT returns hence the support cast :)

For myself anything under 97% is just something that needs to be addressed and you can't survive with that in hunting. So 91%? Yea you get it.
 
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Jhereg

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What weapon(s), what mobs? You hid your entropialife profile so hard to see what you are hunting...so also hard to see your cycle.

Zho
 

The Abomb

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Oke can you share your hunting setup please
Sure but it isn't me, sorry but this isn't an issue I can fix (short of just not hunting). I don't think the players that are experiencing these returns can fix the dramatic drop in TT return. This is an MA issue with loot. Keep in mind this sharp decline in TT % is a new occurrence which caused me to make a support case on behalf of myself and the community.

With that said depending on mob and skills I am working on.
Ares Imp Ring

My main melee set up lately has been Genesis Sparkbite with Eco enhancers, Melee VI amp so I can convert shrapnel to get the 101% I unlocked commando with swords so on larger mobs I still use them.

Ranged I use Isis LC 55 CDF from token trader with Mayhem Gamma Amp for 3.16 Dpp

MF since I am working on Intuition I am using a Corrosive 8 UL Chip with 6 amp


I just want loot to go back to where it was.... I feel like if my returns were sub par and only 95% then it is my problem with looter and set up. Then I need to work on it to raise it to 98+% Then MU covers losses. Do you agree?

What weapon(s), what mobs? You hid your entropialife profile so hard to see what you are hunting...so also hard to see your cycle.

Zho
I hid my profile because 90+% of my globals don't track so it isn't a useful tool. I have had days where 20+ globals didn't register or months of nothing registering and some mob where I achieved top loot. You see I hunt on every planet and do missions across the universe. The tracker isn't tracking Cyrene, Ark, RT, Toulan the only time you see me on tracker is when I am grinding Caly mobs.

You can see me in globals for the week/month on Caperon and Molisk as I was finishing both their missions and Bronze Molisk :)

I tend to stay with a low HP mob range but like I said I kill millions of mobs. On Ark I have complete stage 6 Oro now 17 times and many others that of course didn't register a lot of what I grinded. I complete missions and usually get the expected returns and make things work. However hunting right now is just unbearable for a lot of the community.
 
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Jhereg

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My TT seems fine, at some point I need to put together a report and post it lol...
 

Jhereg

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For Mayhem I'm sitting at 64462 cycled and -1463 return, or 97.7%.

But not a lot cycled tbh..

In the words of MA, it is dynamic, everyone's experience is different, blah blah blah...
 

The Abomb

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For Mayhem I'm sitting at 64462 cycled and -1463 return, or 97.7%.

But not a lot cycled tbh..

In the words of MA, it is dynamic, everyone's experience is different, blah blah blah...
Nice yea that is great! Glad someone got something going ;)

Like I said if i start dipping below 95% it's kinda okay what do we need to fix or hunt different. However I am cycling 100,000s of peds over a lot of mobs that aren't giving me a return that I expect, or is expected.

When I have killed 40 or 50k of one specific mob and now struggle to get 91% all of a sudden. Something is off. Then when I test every planet and grind and it's the same. Again something is off. Which is why we have that other thread on loot returns lately.

I have completed many bronze and repeat missions so I figure this info is helpful and hopefully we can get some clarity from MA on this situation.

Right now I am changing gears, I will harvest and cross skill then re-invest into mining and other areas until this is fixed. Key word fixed.

Intuition and some of these Attribute missions I am finishing will have to just wait for a little. Not throwing money at this when 91% is the norm now.
 
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kingofaces

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When as a community we are experiencing well below what is expected. Key word expected So what changed?
"Community" expectations from the looks of it. As discussed in other loot threads, if someone is expected 95-98% TT long-term, they can't really expect MA to sustain that long-term. The norm has always been closer to 90% across professions even if it seemed like we had a surge across professions just last year. If that was a change by MA that got rolled back because it wasn't really sustainable, then that rollback is just going back to the norm.
 

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"Community" expectations from the looks of it. As discussed in other loot threads, if someone is expected 95-98% TT long-term, they can't really expect MA to sustain that long-term. The norm has always been closer to 90% across professions even if it seemed like we had a surge across professions just last year. If that was a change by MA that got rolled back because it wasn't really sustainable, then that rollback is just going back to the norm.
MA stated right after loot 2.0 their specific target of 96% tt returns on all hunting activities, and then later, stated they wanted to bring it closer to 98%. So hence the 'expectation'.

I'm sure someone can find this statement somewhere on this forum...
 

safara

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Have been away for a few years...

Loot 2.0 ?

96% returns for hunting?

There has got to be a great link that someone can hit me up with!

:Beerchug:
 

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Developer Notes #13 - Loot 2.0 Statistics

The MindArk design team has been closely monitoring the impact of Loot 2.0, recently implemented in Version Update 15.15. We have also been following the many interesting and valuable discussions on community forums and thought it would be helpful to those discussions to share some hunting return statistics.

Net return for all hunting activity since VU 15.15: 94.71%
Net return for hunters cycling at least 100,000 PED since VU 15.15: 97.29%
Net return for hunters cycling at least 10,000 PED since VU 15.15: 94.79%
Net return for accounts created in 2017, cycling at least 100 PED since VU 15.15: 94.87%
Net return for accounts created in 2017: 93.47%

These return rates are very close to MindArk’s targets for Loot 2.0, and indicate that the changes implemented are working as intended. Of course, we will continue to monitor, tweak and improve moving forward.

Happy hunting!
More statements here:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?306865-List-of-official-statments-pertaining-to-loot-post-2-0
 

Detritus

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To OP:

Do you keep precise logs yourself?

If so:

Do those numbers in the support case match what you show in your own logs?

If not:

You just trust MA is calculating them correctly without any transparency about how the data is gathered and how they are calculated? I could just paste 3 numbers into a support ticket and tell you that's your returns and you take it as gospel?


Would be interested to see if the results for someone who does keep very precise logs matches what MA gives them.
 

Alukat123

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I like their response to your support case, actually. And I have a feeling that lots more people will be putting in support cases like yours to find out what their 'official' returns have been over the last 3 months :)
MA's response to my complaints about bad returns:
We've taken a look at your returns for 2018 and they are the following:

Hunting: 96,20%
Crafting: 90,26%
They didn't even bothered looking up mining returns xD

Hunting is fine, crafting not and the crafting return has even gone down a bit in 2019...

Sample size in crafting is 400+k clicks... after that many clicks i would expect to be somewhat close to the expected 95%...

Edit: and they apologized for me not having a pleasuring experience..
i don't want an apology, i want them to fix the issue...
 
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The Abomb

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To OP:

Do you keep precise logs yourself?

If so:

Do those numbers in the support case match what you show in your own logs?

If not:

You just trust MA is calculating them correctly without any transparency about how the data is gathered and how they are calculated? I could just paste 3 numbers into a support ticket and tell you that's your returns and you take it as gospel?


Would be interested to see if the results for someone who does keep very precise logs matches what MA gives them.
Precise monthly logs no but their numbers look right (I do agree though it would be nice to know the exact Data and see someone who has exact Data match theirs) Maybe someone will do that? I keep more hunt and mob specific tracking and been getting 70% returns on some days. Then going to another planet and getting 70% returns for a few days. Then it breaks some and get the expected returns or slightly above TT for a few runs. Which is how I end up with the 91-92%

However since the recent loot thread and after yesterday. Where I logged 76% on Caly, then 66% on Monria then 70% on RT I said okay time for a support case. I don't deposit money in this game to throw it away. I expect returns and to invest so I can survive long term and of course make withdraws. Economy and door works both ways.

My last HOF over 500 ped was on a Werewolf on Nov. 12th. (779) ped Maybe they storing up an ATH for me? Well it will have to wait I don't see any real hunting in my future until I know it is safe to actually hunt. I will do something else :)
 

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What I take from this is MA has ways and a reason for tracking our individual returns.

I thought about asking them for mine, but don't want to point it out to them in case I get " re-balanced" :laugh:
 

Adjusted Einar

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MA changes your loot just acoz

Everyone can't profit all the time, Everyone doesn't lose all the time, MA must win all the time.

2007-11-12 20:53 You wrote:


Since VU 9 my avatar has been doing rather poorly. My returns on hunts have been about 20% of ammo costs, the highest being about 40%. My avatar is a Lvl 34 Laser pistoleer, yet using a Korss H400 5 and 6 missed shots IN A ROW are frequent. About 95% of the time, my first shot is a miss, (shows no damage), however it also always get the MOB's attention as though it had been hit. I always use an AMP on my Korss H400. Usually an A103, however I'd guesstimate the damage it has been doing is in the lower 1/3 of the guns damage range WITHOUT AN AMP 60% of the time.

Could you pls check my avatar or something?


2007-11-13 07:40 Entropia Universe Support:


Hi,
It is regrettable that you feel this way. However, you have been with us for a long time and you are probably aware of that we cannot discuss issues referring to the core dynamic of the Entropia Universe. There are numerous reasons for this. However, what we can reveal is that we have not implemented any changes in the distribution of the loot or in the general loot system. The return calculated as a percentage today, is no different from before. The dynamic feature of Entropia Universe has the effect that you sometimes have good times and sometimes not so good. Maybe it does not look too bright for you now, but we can ensure you that your luck will turn sooner or later.

Thanks for your patience and your participation in Entropia Universe.

Kind regards,
Entropia Support

If you didn't know before now you know what dynamic means.

:popcorn:
 
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The Abomb

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They hang it in front of your face and then they keep running away from you at full speed :laugh:
I was trying to catch them but they nerfed Agility run speed :laugh:
 

Joat

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I wrote this in The MeanMachines thread, I guess I can drop here too:

Imo there is no such thing as "luck" or "random" in EU since that require way more code than
using math instead.
Reason why same people over and over again get better things are that they create right values.
There are three parts in a loot, gear that create the value, target that require a value and the
avatars values that makes the progression and interactions more unpredictable.
Its all aboubt matching numbers, not hit something with most damage.
Why can a noob hit a big one? Its due his progression in combination with right gear creating right
values for the target.
And no, I'm not gonna try to convience people to believe in this, since everyone can believe in
whatever they want. :)


There are obviously some more parts in loot but thats not something I can at least
try to controll. I can try to use timing for some though.
Way too many seem to be stucked at the gear values, and forget the target values.
When I hunt for a better eco I always start with target value so I have something to
use when I do the math for what gear I need to use.

When it comes to Loot 1.0 vs Loot 2.0, well basics is still the same, imo.
Loot 2.0 is improved and have some changes, mainly what parameters that are included
in the loot calculation, but it isn't a completly new system.
Now a little conspiracy theory (or not :D) why Loot 2.0 and Looter prof stands were introduced:
It's due to a legal aspect. EU had become a bit too close to something that looked as if it
was built around randomness, therefor they had to implement something that reduced
this impression of randomness.
 

jambon

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Developer Notes #13 - Loot 2.0 Statistics

The MindArk design team has been closely monitoring the impact of Loot 2.0, recently implemented in Version Update 15.15. We have also been following the many interesting and valuable discussions on community forums and thought it would be helpful to those discussions to share some hunting return statistics.

Net return for all hunting activity since VU 15.15: 94.71%
Net return for hunters cycling at least 100,000 PED since VU 15.15: 97.29%
Net return for hunters cycling at least 10,000 PED since VU 15.15: 94.79%
Net return for accounts created in 2017, cycling at least 100 PED since VU 15.15: 94.87%
Net return for accounts created in 2017: 93.47%

These return rates are very close to MindArk’s targets for Loot 2.0, and indicate that the changes implemented are working as intended. Of course, we will continue to monitor, tweak and improve moving forward.

Happy hunting!
More statements here:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...fficial-statments-pertaining-to-loot-post-2-0
The big question I have regarding those numbers is how many mob kills we're talking here for those cycle #'s?

100peds on mulmun looter elite is like 3 mobs... Unless you get VERY lucky I doubt it's possible to see that 94% return they're talking about. But 100 peds on punies is like 500. To break it down a little more:

100,000 peds on mulmun looters = 3,000ish
100,000 peds on atrox young = 30,000ish
100,000 peds on kerb young = 225,000ish
100,000 peds on merp young = 450,000ish

What's the general consensus on how many mobs need to be killed in a run to see those kinds of returns steadily?


When I have killed 40 or 50k of one specific mob and now struggle to get 91% all of a sudden.

What was your return % at when you were only at about 5000 kills? Or even 1000?
 

Fiona Simmons

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Is overkill still a thing like all peds you spend on mobs not backed by mob hp is refunded in scraps but only like 90% of tt value ?`

We have a vague idea how much percent of raw tt value we get from each percent on the eco bar assuming its a linear increase. Did you compare the raw tt return from the difference of your eco enahancers versus their markup cost ?

I feel like if you hunt mobs with higher total hp with your current setup and remove eco enhancer you might fare better.
 

Adjusted Einar

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ahh, the carrot that MA hangs in front of our face.
Your luck WILL change. According to Entropia Life, I have collected over 50k USD just in hunting globals alone, and only since EL has been a thing. There is no way I have deposited that many USDs. Try not to get lost with .5 pec here and .5 pec there. It's a game have fun. A damn fine game.
 
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I have played I think since 2005, with many years in some cases in between playing most notably missing FEN :( While the loot certainly has become less diverse when looking at samples on this forum and my own loot I don't think it has significantly changed over time for me at least different than MA has laid out in their dev posts. I had a long term "profit" which really helped me IRL in 2008 or so but I have never relied on "profit" I would say its more the chance of continue to play for a chance to "profit" that keeps me playing, and its just a great kind of scifi techno environment that no other game has. All of that profit has been deposited again since. Getting 50% return I think on a hunt and stopping for years there have been many ups and downs. All of it has been fun! The smoothing out of the return curve with less variability, not seeing any hunts below 70% may seem like I am getting less but I am also shooting a lot more per hunt due to skill progression and thats more fun for me. I don't deposit much over 15 years and the value and fun I received from that is certainly more than any other game. I deposit when I feel I can and have time to play, lately some have been due to credit card cashback :) those damn boxes always get me. Maybe ill buy a big UL gun one day, but I wouldn't do it and expect to get it back next hunt.

As MA seems to respond, knowledge is a part of it and most of the time I take that knowledge into account but sometimes, like having one (L) armor suit that I used for almost everything doesn't take all of that into account but its just more fun for me that way.

I would says MA has been pretty straight with their disclosure of numbers and my experience reflects that, but the game is called Entropia for a reason and entropy isn't meant to be completely predictable.
 

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Good thread Abomb. My results are similar.
 

billyboy

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Maybe we are same situation than pre loot 2.0.
Those high efficiency setup and 100 looter prof players (there is atleast 1) make another players loose more than expected, only difference is that ma don't loose money.
 
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