Response on Bad Loot and my MA tracked 91% Returns

Tekkie

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Just to put it in perspective, take a look at this average level example:

Weapon: ArMatrix SB-45 (L)
Cost to buy: 112 PED including MU
Uses: 9665
Ammo per use: 1212
Total cost to fully use weapon Decay + Ammo: 1283 PED
Time to fully use: 3 hours to include breaks between uses
Cost per hour: 428PED
Loss per hour @ 90% = 42PED
Loss per hour @ 95% = 21PED
Loss per hour @ 99% = 4.3PED

Play 5 hours a day for 30 days = 150 hours
Monthly loss at 99% return = 150x4.3 = 645PED - $65 per month
Monthly loss at 95% return = 150x21 = 3150PED - $315 per month (apparently 95% is acceptable?????)

Above example is only weapon, armour and healing is additional. Also, its a very modest weapon and throughput.

So, the next time I hear somebody say 95% return is ok I will be wishing you horrific loss in future - as it appears to be what you want?
 

Angel O2 Mercer

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Believe it or not there's plenty of people who are happy with how the game works, we are just not that loud. I hope things get better for all of you.

These threads always get super depressing :(
 

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Everything boils down to the Black Box Formula.

Nobody knows what is in it. MA can change it on a daily basis if they so choose. They will not tell anyone if or what was changed.

How many Black Box Formulas are there? At least 3 I would think: Hunting, Mining, Crafting

I remember early on in my EU experience, new players were asking an MA official in local chat about loot being taken from other mobs to make up for migration loot. The answer was that not all mobs are affected. So do different mob categories have their own Black Box Formula? This can be extended to crafting and mining as well if you want.

There stock response to poor loot issues is to gain knowledge of the universe. How are we suppose to gain knowledge if they won't tell us what we need to know? We have to spend hours/days/weeks in the damn forums instead of the game trying to glean information from what other players are willing to share.

The ONLY point of keeping it secret is so that they can change it at will, without informing anyone they do so.
 

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Just to put it in perspective, take a look at this average level example:

Weapon: ArMatrix SB-45 (L)
Cost to buy: 112 PED including MU
Uses: 9665
Ammo per use: 1212
Total cost to fully use weapon Decay + Ammo: 1283 PED
Time to fully use: 3 hours to include breaks between uses
Cost per hour: 428PED
Loss per hour @ 90% = 42PED
Loss per hour @ 95% = 21PED
Loss per hour @ 99% = 4.3PED

Play 5 hours a day for 30 days = 150 hours
Monthly loss at 99% return = 150x4.3 = 645PED - $65 per month
Monthly loss at 95% return = 150x21 = 3150PED - $315 per month (apparently 95% is acceptable?????)

Above example is only weapon, armour and healing is additional. Also, its a very modest weapon and throughput.

So, the next time I hear somebody say 95% return is ok I will be wishing you horrific loss in future - as it appears to be what you want?
Your example is false.
If you include Markup on the weapon (cost to buy), don' t forget to include markup from loot.
95% TT return, if you loot 100% shrapnel (it never happen) you'll have 95+1% TT return = 96% at the end.

So, you can find 1% ou 2% more markup here or there and you'll be close to 98% TT return with a weapon L with MU and not a high efficiency. That's not so bad.

As i see, many players are wrong on their maths. Many just want shoot, TT loot and shoot again...

Yes, 91% TT return after 3 month runs and a decent quantity of ped spent is not normal.

Yes, high efficiency weapon work (i used LP 70 FEN Edition 92% eff, spent 87kped on young tide claw 250hp and weak paneleon 80hp during my holidays [16th december to 2th January]).
I lost ~1800ped (97.9% TT return)

Now if i count MU :
Significative markup i saved :
2948 Christmas strongbox
777 Bone in meat = 100.95ped TT value x ~1000% - auction fee = ~900ped net
1268 cracked shell = 76.08 ped TT value x ~166% - auction fee = ~40 ped net

We all know the rules now.
High efficiency give better loot return (for me,up to ~2% against a weapon with 65% efficiency).
High DPP give better loot composition. I loot alot more Bone in meat than many players i spoke.
Knowledge work, i hunt for markup and i try to choose the best mob for the best %.

About looter skill. i don't know, i didn't noticed a big change since they introduced that skill. I'm level 51 animal looter.

My feedback is : system work like MA announced it.

What to improve ?
The volatility on big HP mob. This is not sustainable for any players who can't spend 10hr every days in hunt. This is not fair for any casual players and that kill the fun for players who want play for fun on big mobs.
I feel like i'm condamned to kill low HP mobs if i want survive.
 

Tekkie

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Your example is false.
If you include Markup on the weapon (cost to buy), don' t forget to include markup from loot.
95% TT return, if you loot 100% shrapnel (it never happen) you'll have 95+1% TT return = 96% at the end.

So, you can find 1% ou 2% more markup here or there and you'll be close to 98% TT return with a weapon L with MU and not a high efficiency. That's not so bad.
I get your point about including the MU on the weapon... but in the example I didn't include cost against armour or heal or anything else - the outlook was actually still very optimistic.

MU is a myth that needs busting - I know it's a comfort blanket to many out there but the benefit as a whole across the playerbase is actually a negative - an additional cost.

Firstly - low-mid range playing there is a very small portion of loot that is worth selling other than to tt
Secondly - every pec extra that you claw back in MU has cost another player the same amount
Thirdly - MA takes a cut of the sale from the playerbase - result is less money in the playerbase

All MU provides is that the top level band of players lose slightly less than horrific costs in the game whilst everybody else that is supporting this by buying MU items is paying MORE than horrific costs in the game. Obscene costs lets be honest!

To further compound this you have varience - at times you are looting far less than x% and require massive bankroll and hope it passes.

This game, if it ever wants to grow beyond fleasing a few wealthy players over years or destroying any new player immediately needs to provide more realistic returns in the region of 99-99.5%.

Or...

Move the decimal point 1 digit left on everything. Preferably both!
 
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Alukat123

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This game, if it ever wants to grow beyond fleasing a few wealthy players over years or destroying any new player immediately needs to provide more realistic returns in the region of 99-99.5%.
Yep, and they need to drastically up the short term returns... i just did a 100 PED depo to see if i finally get some back (the past 1000+ clicks have been quite terrible) and after 20 minutes of playing there were only 60 PED of those 100 PED left...

i guess i go back to spending my money on other way cheaper MMOs.
 

Tekkie

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Yep, and they need to drastically up the short term returns... i just did a 100 PED depo to see if i finally get some back (the past 1000+ clicks have been quite terrible) and after 20 minutes of playing there were only 60 PED of those 100 PED left...

i guess i go back to spending my money on other way cheaper MMOs.
Thats only $12 per hour loss :( .... thats a months play on a lot of subscription MMO's

This is the problem MA have - its a small scale money pit
 

trance

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I just think, that the dynamic factor is too dynamic.
It feels more and more like a big looser game. Where is the fun to be a big looser?
Every thing i do in last weeks end up in loosing peds, especial when I cicle a lot peds, in the hope a multiplier will save the losses.

Time to find an other game, any ideas about?
 

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MU is a myth that needs busting

So if we get rid of MU... why else play the game? For the HOFs? I think you can find plenty of slots machines nowadays if that's what you're looking for.

Or, you can follow this dude's example here (skill up, gear up), that keeps the biggest hunting log, something like over 28 million PED tracked day by day. In this chunk of PED he managed 97.66% TT return, and after MU he's at 101.47% which makes him 414849 PED profit, according to his logs. What makes him (and others) successful in this game is the nerve to go through bad periods too.

No MU in EU? Can you imagine what would this do to crafting? Everyone and some hunters would jump on explo, at 99.5% because crafting mining amps and hunting tools is not easy, you have a lot of work to do. No MU would mean 0 crafting (of these tools) incentive. No incentive to mine, no incentive to play :D

99 - 99.5 gamblers paradise, not sure if the game would die, but it would certainly change a lot its playerbase
 

Tekkie

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I just think, that the dynamic factor is too dynamic.
There is nothing dynamic when all but a few lose, a more acurate description would be variation between screwed or slightly less screwed... but either way you are screwed
 

Tekkie

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So if we get rid of MU... why else play the game? For the HOFs? I think you can find plenty of slots machines nowadays if that's what you're looking for.

Or, you can follow this dude's example here (skill up, gear up), that keeps the biggest hunting log, something like over 28 million PED tracked day by day. In this chunk of PED he managed 97.66% TT return, and after MU he's at 101.47% which makes him 414849 PED profit, according to his logs. What makes him (and others) successful in this game is the nerve to go through bad periods too.

No MU in EU? Can you imagine what would this do to crafting? Everyone and some hunters would jump on explo, at 99.5% because crafting mining amps and hunting tools is not easy, you have a lot of work to do. No MU would mean 0 crafting (of these tools) incentive. No incentive to mine, no incentive to play :D

99 - 99.5 gamblers paradise, not sure if the game would die, but it would certainly change a lot its playerbase
Fantastic example, you quote an incredibly skilled avatar with thier own data to enforce that they can only profit by other players loss.

And when I say profit I smirk a little as for sure this fella has deposited more than he has ever withdrawn... so actually he is at a loss ;)
 

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What makes him (and others) successful in this game is the nerve to go through bad periods too.
And not a month return as low as my last month since 2014.
 

Evey

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Fantastic example, you quote an incredibly skilled avatar with thier own data to enforce that they can only profit by other players loss.
I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Don't we all want to profit in Entropia? Or you want to profit by MA's loss? :)
Or you just want to play but never profit?
;)
 

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The expenses which the majority of players are playing at are not sustainable. When something is not sustainable, it means, it will end.

GL chasing MU for profit or reselling when there is no one to buy, coz it is not sustainable.

That's the point.:scratch2:

Average joe simply cannot pay 3k+ or 30k+, or 300k+ year to play EU. Depends on average joe.

But the game is an extremely profitable product, not extremely fun, or rewarding, or... anything else.
 

Tekkie

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Or, you can follow this dude's example here (skill up, gear up), that keeps the biggest hunting log, something like over 28 million PED tracked day by day. In this chunk of PED he managed 97.66% TT return, and after MU he's at 101.47% which makes him 414849 PED profit, according to his logs. What makes him (and others) successful in this game is the nerve to go through bad periods too.
So even at top level you are saying 414k ped profit -$41k over - 10 years with most likely more deposit than withdrawal that it is a shining example of why the game works??? Are you deranged? It is probably playing 16 hours a day, every day to get $4k A YEAR!!! Fook that, just get a part time job at walmart and play a different game. Are you really so deluded?
 

Alukat123

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I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Don't we all want to profit in Entropia? Or you want to profit by MA's loss? :)
Or you just want to play but never profit?
;)
So you still try to derail topics about TT-return into MU topics..
pretty sure everyone here would be quite happy with the 97,66% TT-return that guy you posted about did get..
 

Tekkie

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So you still try to derail topics about TT-return into MU topics..
pretty sure everyone here would be quite happy with the 97,66% TT-return that guy you posted about did get..
I wouldn't be happy with 97.66% return.... its a horrific loss!
 

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I wonder if there are parameters changed and/or if there are mistakes done by players
that create this lower average return?

To those who have noticed a lower return have the amount of globals and hofs decreased?
Which skills do you take and why when chosing rewards from the Codex and other missions with
skills as rewards?
 

Alukat123

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To those who have noticed a lower return have the amount of globals and hofs decreased?
global/hof, what's that? also, size of those matters... when you need like 20k HoF to get to 95% return, then a 50 PED global wouldn't do much good..
 

Joat

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global/hof, what's that? also, size of those matters... when you need like 20k HoF to get to 95% return, then a 50 PED global wouldn't do much good..
I had a 4.9k "at the right timing" so they can be a bit bigger too. :silly2:
 

Tekkie

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I had a 4.9k "at the right timing" so they can be a bit bigger too. :silly2:
Bloody shame you had to lose more to get it in the first place
 

Joat

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Bloody shame you had to lose more to get it in the first place
I started to lose again when I changed prio when they announced that Iron (and similar) missions
will come to an end. Before that I had quite decent loot (no need for depos) but I did a lot more
math also when it comes to what value the target required my set up to create.
Now I just go ont to complete missions with attribute rewards.
I realy don't care if I lose 2% more as long as I reach those part goals I have for a depo,
my normal depos are max 3k per month. Changes in currency can be "way more" than that
small loss, e.g my last depo had a difference of 5.33% more PEDs compared to my second to last depo. ;)
I see EU as entertainment, if I lose so what? I play EU instead of partying, in EU I can at least
remember where money went, even though sometimes I can agree it had been better with
a memoryloss. :silly2:
 

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I started to lose again when I changed prio when they announced that Iron (and similar) missions
will come to an end. Before that I had quite decent loot (no need for depos) but I did a lot more
math also when it comes to what value the target required my set up to create.
Now I just go ont to complete missions with attribute rewards.
I realy don't care if I lose 2% more as long as I reach those part goals I have for a depo,
my normal depos are max 3k per month. Changes in currency can be "way more" than that
small loss, e.g my last depo had a difference of 5.33% more PEDs compared to my second to last depo. ;)
I see EU as entertainment, if I lose so what? I play EU instead of partying, in EU I can at least
remember where money went, even though sometimes I can agree it had been better with
a memoryloss. :silly2:
To be honest I find 300$ per month just to go pfew pfew for days on end quite a lot of money.

I can hardly call that value for money.
I wonder what the difference is in 30$, or 300$ or maybe 3000$ per month apart from the size of the mob you go pfew pfew on.

I really don't understand why people would just throw away such insane amounts of money.
Is everybody that rich or what?

I could understand if you would deposit bigger amounts to invest.
But just depo to shoot and lose?
It baffles me.

The only thing that comes to mind when I hear this is:



As long as you have decent returns and after MU get 100%+ then it could make sense. But then again, why deposit if you're actually making money?

Ah well, I guess I'm just not MA's target audience. I hate gambling.
 

Joat

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To be honest I find 300$ per month just to go pfew pfew for days on end quite a lot of money.

I can hardly call that value for money.
I wonder what the difference is in 30$, or 300$ or maybe 3000$ per month apart from the size of the mob you go pfew pfew on.

I really don't understand why people would just throw away such insane amounts of money.
Is everybody that rich or what?

I could understand if you would deposit bigger amounts to invest.
But just depo to shoot and lose?
It baffles me.

The only thing that comes to mind when I hear this is:



As long as you have decent returns and after MU get 100%+ then it could make sense. But then again, why deposit if you're actually making money?

Ah well, I guess I'm just not MA's target audience. I hate gambling.
First of all, 3k is my max, not my average. My average for normal depos for pfew pfew is
probably around 1-1.5k.
Second thing to remember I depo less than I used to waste on partying. :silly2:
The problem is that most people is stucked around the money aspect. If money is that important
then log out, get a second job and make a real profit.
For me money is just a tool to be able to get or do something. Money itself isn't the goal for me.
Might look insane to waste money on a game where I have to stop and quit playing but for now
its an entertainment for me, something to do when not at current job.

I lose money now since my main prio is to finish off all old missions, but if I still play when
they are removed, I'll head back to use set ups that fits better to targets.
On the other hand, I always save my MU (not tt value though) to buy UL stuff. I've paid approx
6.5 parts of my angel set, adj V1, LC-300 (ca 70%) , adj-sk80, imp hedoc and other gear and items
with this saving. So I don't use that extra for pfew pfew, but I have used it for tiering though.
 

Alukat123

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The problem is that most people is stucked around the money aspect. If money is that important
then log out, get a second job and make a real profit.
preferbly a job at your company so you can get more profit and depo even more?
Anyway, ofc people are stuck around the money aspect, because, i'm pretty sure about this, the vast majority of people simply can't afford to depo 1-3k a month...
If you can only depo 10-20 bucks a month, then you need to watch your money.
 

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preferbly a job at your company so you can get more profit and depo even more?
Anyway, ofc people are stuck around the money aspect, because, i'm pretty sure about this, the vast majority of people simply can't afford to depo 1-3k a month...
If you can only depo 10-20 bucks a month, then you need to watch your money.
I'm on a ordinary average job, nothing special about it. :silly2:
This is the reason why we realy can't discuss what to do or not ingame, since every person have
their own unique situation IRL.
For me 3k is a lot, for someone else it might be just a dream and for some it's a small amount.
Why I can depo a bit more now is due to I have cut down almost every RL expense to a minimum,
and I also have a quite low rent on my apartment.
I don't have the need to go all macho ingame and always gonna try to prove something by only
play in a big game style, I'm fine doing realy low end basic stuff too.
Afterall, I'm a JOAT, I have to do a lot of different stuff. :D
For me the game is interesting in a mechanism way also, so figure things out and also creating
theories are also fun. :silly2:
 

Evey

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So even at top level you are saying 414k ped profit -$41k over - 10 years with most likely more deposit than withdrawal that it is a shining example of why the game works??? Are you deranged? It is probably playing 16 hours a day, every day to get $4k A YEAR!!! Fook that, just get a part time job at walmart and play a different game. Are you really so deluded?
It was an example of profit long term from a much lower tt return than your ideal tt return. There are many people that did a lot better than smilgs but smilgs is public about his returns.

The game doesn't have to work. The game has to work for you! If it doesn't, do something else with you time! Find something you enjoy, find something before you turn into alukat.

If money is your top priority, go find a job. If you want to play and profit some, try to see what others are doing right or how they do it, because if you ask for more money from the system while there are many miners, crafters and hunters that are doing ok, well, this game might not be suited for you.


@Xen - when I sold my gleamer in 2018 I was at a steady 96-97%; switching to lp70 put me at 93% for quite a while and it scared me but things got better. My luck was that it was during FEN and I was making much more from MU, otherwise maybe I would have gotten a break myself... Maybe you are experiencing a similar period too, maybe op author too
 

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For fun as I test some higher efficiency and set-ups to try and figure out what is wrong with the loot system. I decided to grab myself an Armatrix SB-60

2403 Ped In
1876 Ped Out
-527

78%

Which seems to be my typical runs right around the 77-82% lately. Yea my skills, gear and knowledge is doing wonders and this is where I completely stop all test and say I'm out till MA fixes their loot. This is on them! The players are just tired and will do something else.

I can harvest, mine and cross skill or just go to the gym more instead of wasting money. I will enjoy other aspects of the game that is either free or obviously more fun then watching my money burn.

Anyone should be able to get the accepted and expected 95-98% returns will way less looter and gear. Again these are averages for the player base, you shouldn't need FEN items to attain these numbers. They are expected without that gear.

Realistically though the system needs changes to get most Avatars near 98-99% TT long term. So I hope this thread changes things as it only benefits the game and everyone.

Players should be not only doing far better than this but they should also be winning. That is what stimulates growth in this game and it's economy. Withdraws is vital to this games success. It's a win/win for MA. However the deposit every couple days business model and these types of returns will only drive away their loyal depositors. This isn't even close to fun and again I wish you luck out there.

Edit- I would like to add that I hope MA realizes my intentions are in the best interest of the game. Why wouldn't I want this game to grow and for my friends and the players to have a game to call home and have fun. It's time to work on a few things and I hope we get a VU coming up to do it.

Abomb
 
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mastermesh

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To be honest I find 300$ per month just to go pfew pfew for days on end quite a lot of money.

I can hardly call that value for money.
I wonder what the difference is in 30$, or 300$ or maybe 3000$ per month apart from the size of the mob you go pfew pfew on.

I really don't understand why people would just throw away such insane amounts of money.
Is everybody that rich or what?

I could understand if you would deposit bigger amounts to invest.
But just depo to shoot and lose?
It baffles me.

The only thing that comes to mind when I hear this is:



As long as you have decent returns and after MU get 100%+ then it could make sense. But then again, why deposit if you're actually making money?

Ah well, I guess I'm just not MA's target audience. I hate gambling.
It all has to do with the size of your disposable income. Someone washing dishes as a job is going to have a different salary in real life than a mechanic, who is going to have a different salary than a Doctor or Lawyer. I suspect some of the highest depositors in games enjoy their jobs directing airplanes from the air traffic control towers they work in.
 
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