FYI: ROI on dmg/pec improvements

[girtsn]

Realized i was wrong with my previous assumptions. If you indeed just get free kills for having more dmg/pec and return isnt tracked, then return is proportional to dmg/pec.

However, I think this assumption (return is proportional to dmg/pec) is wrong, below some arguments why

1. too often when my return drops below 90% tt, it is returned to normal by some hofs, which makes me assume the return is fixed at some level
2. imk2 would never sell for anything like 50k. if with doa ish + evil (dmg/pec 2.866) you get ~90% tt return (see my return, fact) imk2 + h204 (dmg/pec 3.24) should be 13% more, so 101.75% tt return. I used imk2 maxed, 90% tt return was what I got.

 

[Cerberis]

Realized i was wrong with my previous assumptions. If you indeed just get free kills for having more dmg/pec and return isnt tracked, then return is proportional to dmg/pec.

However, I think this assumption (return is proportional to dmg/pec) is wrong, below some arguments why

1. too often when my return drops below 90% tt, it is returned to normal by some hofs, which makes me assume the return is fixed at some level
2. imk2 would never sell for anything like 50k. if with doa ish + evil (dmg/pec 2.866) you get ~90% tt return (see my return, fact) imk2 + h204 (dmg/pec 3.24) should be 13% more, so 101.75% tt return. I used imk2 maxed, 90% tt return was what I got.

We do not know how much ECO related with tt return. I am sure that it is not like you think. I am sure there are a lot of different things that affects our returns. I think 2.86 eco vs 3.24 eco is not 13% difference, mabie it is 3% or so

 

[girtsn]

Completely agree, 2-3% or so is definitely closer to reality. My point is, people should consider the reality when evaluating what the ROI of dmg/pec improvements would be.

We do not know how much ECO related with tt return. I am sure that it is not like you think. I am sure there are a lot of different things that affects our returns. I think 2.86 eco vs 3.24 eco is not 13% difference, mabie it is 3% or so

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

Completely agree, 2-3% or so is definitely closer to reality. My point is, people should consider the reality when evaluating what the ROI of dmg/pec improvements would be.

Do I understand correctly that now you think Ranger Scope mk.2 have lesser impact than you originally thought (in unedited first post that I saw yesterday)?

 

[Angel]

the most impact on any weapon is how/what/when/where you hunt.

 

[girtsn]

I think the impact is way over-estimated.

Do I understand correctly that now you think Ranger Scope mk.2 have lesser impact than you originally thought (in unedited first post that I saw yesterday)?

 

[Angel]

I think the impact is way over-estimated.

yeh I agree. the extra 2% crit will be balanced out by loot system in anyway you put it.

 

[toad]

I guess there is time for me to sell out and leave forever if this is true, nothing to strive for then.

 

[Sub-Zero]

the most impact on any weapon is how/what/when/where you hunt.

Exactly, top of the list is overkill. It doesn't get paid back in loot so all overkill is loss. Doesn't matter your dpp if you hunt with too big gun for the mob you're hunting without finisher.

 

[MG Mighty]

the most impact on any weapon is how/what/when/where you hunt.

I agree.

Exactly, top of the list is overkill. It doesn't get paid back in loot so all overkill is loss. Doesn't matter your dpp if you hunt with too big gun for the mob you're hunting without finisher.

Overkill is important, as any "non necessary (wasted) costs.
But with equal setups something else matters.

 

[MG Mighty]

However, I think this assumption (return is proportional to dmg/pec) is wrong

I believe this conclusion is correct.

I think that what causes return isn't the damage or the pec spent
but
return is correlated to damage made and/or pec spent.

Put it simply when you make an action, it generates something ,let call it a multiplier. The final return is a function of the obtained multipliers (and what was used to generate those multipliers might not even be relevant).



(Correlation does not imply causation.)

 

[Acro]

MA said eco does matter; and still it feels like a lie.
If eco matters IMKII would rule and any return below 98% on a hunting log would be impossible if compared to normal weapons.
Still this is not the case. So either one of the following is true:

1. loot is totally dependable to what you spend as a whole; which means that any strategy, knowledge of loot and such is a joke. You play with fixed parameters and in the end everyone will lose.

2. Loot is dependable upon invested ped into that loot instance; and "randomness" of the "what/where/when" principle. In this case; gear is only the means to kill a mob size or find an ore type or being able to click a certain BP; and return is dependant on luck or some "deeper knowledge".

3. you lose upto a certain amount of ped per hour; if you manage to cycle alot, your return will be higher since tht maximum amount is a smaller part as turnover gets bigger.

Or eco matters and in this case;
4. unless your DPP>3.1; you are screwed


Or

5. It is a hybrid system between
a. 2 +3 (capped efficiency eco wise)
b. 2+4 (the eco vs. high DPS sollution cap)
c. 3+4 (big gunz rulez cap)
d. 2+3+4 (capped on all sides)
e.1 + (the rest) a fake feeling you can change something

So this are basically the options that are left for TT return. Now, who's up for homework?

 

[MG Mighty]

MA said eco does matter; and still it feels like a lie.

Eco matters because it allows you to get a bigger sample of data (for lower costs)
If you don't know what to do with it, then eco matters "much less" and it comes near to randomness.

 

[Acro]

Eco matters because it allows you to get a bigger sample of data (for lower costs)
If you don't know what to do with it, then eco matters much less and it comes near to randomness.

hybrid 4+2 is your case in this; meaning that you do eco to maximize the gut feeling so to speak; while in theory eco is of lower relevance that the gut. this seems most likely to me;

 

[MG Mighty]

the gut feeling

true that I currently don't know of a way to test it up the point at which undoubtable statistical significative values are obtained.

but that is because MA made it much more dynamic (it used to be much more simple and testable)

 

[sidxx]

MA said eco does matter

MA never defined what "ECO" means to MA, different people have different ideas of what ECO means to them.

i havent believed that DPP has mattered since MA announced they will start to make changes to the loot systems, i play with terrible dpp setup and over kill all the time: and armor protection enhancers even when i dont need them, when i track my returns over 100k cycled i manage to get about 89-91% tt returns excluding MU in/out.

 

[Sub-Zero]

No need to overcomplicate things.
More ECO = Less peds spent per kill than lower ECO. Which means more chance to get a multipler.

The game is designed so that eventually everyone will lose. Your job is to make sure to minimize your losses when that time comes. Mindless grinding = "House" always wins. You need to know when to quit a hunt / switch mob and at worst, log out. This is the only way to minimize losses with the exception of not TT-ing everything, and selling at bigger stacks for MU.

This compilation of factors makes an imk2 not have 95%+ avg returns by hunting mindlessly. Otherwise MA would go broke because then with just some modifications to one's gameplay, an imk2 owner would be able to always profit.

So yes ECO does matter, but it doesn't guarantee high % returns, only if you follow my advice from above, but even then it won't be guaranteed after all the "House" always wins, eventually.

 

[Attilla]

This is a very interesting thread.
I would like to see more input/data from other imk2 users.

 

[Hypnotyk]

Eco only allows you to stay at the poker table a little longer by saving you some change every hunt you go on, but in the end you'll have to buy more chips to play if you can't beat the house on a hand.