Should NEVERDIE be banned?

[Oleg]

And again, if it's determined that a planet partner is stupid enough to try some kind of profiteering run, how long would it be that either MA "revokes" their planet, or us players simply boycott it?

Same w/ Neverdie. If he was really caught "exploiting the system" somehow, I'm sure the players would boycott CND, his bank and his planets.

Where's his income now?

Ah yes, just like, for example, investment bankers would never risk their huge salaries by committing fraud and insider trading and...

Oh, wait a second...

 

[JohnCapital]

I was going to quote some folks, but frankly the issues seem to cover 3 main points:

Neverdie vs Hanne/Skam
Issue: Hanne had to give up the Skam avatar, so ND should too.

Fact: Hanne is an employee. ND is not. On Hanne's income tax reports, she's listed as an employee, with set salary, and FPC and her must follow all the rules and laws governing employees (hours, pay rates, taxes, benefits, etc. etc.)

ND's tax papers list him as a small-business owner, (owner of Neverdie Studios, who is in business partnership with MA) complete with him paying employees, not being paid as one. ND has no guaranteed income. No health benefits. etc. If you don't know the difference between an employee and a business owner, you need help.

Potential For Cheating
Issue: ND has access to information that he could exploit for personal gain.

Fact: Yes, he could exploit things if he wanted. Has he so far?

• He knew what his mobs dmg was. Did he buy/sell the right armor?
• He knew everyone would need to do TP runs. Did he fill the auction w/ overpriced ME and Tp chips? (I did. )
• He knew about space pirates (which IS coming, but much slower than ND thought and won't be quite what he envisions at first) Did he buy up a bunch of hangers?

Many here say he could/would/might/maybe exploit, but he's already had multiple opportunities to exploit that he's passed up. We can't ban folks who have an opportunity to exploit when actual exploiters are allowed to stay.

Check ND's ET stats. Nothing amazing. Oh wait. He globaled on his own planet. Maybe he looted an axe(L).
Check ND's EF achievements. Seems he might have discovered the phasm claw while hunting on his own LA. (Was a use for that ever found? DNA? crafting?) He also "ATH"ed a whopping 7k on CND. Ooh the horror.

When the banks were for sale, ND sold his POE (and I think shadow) and other high price items to be able to win an auction after the banks were announced. Does that sound like exploiting?

No discoveries. No talks of questionable item sales. No huge hofs. No massive ATHs.

I have many other stories and data, but the bottom line is: Unless someone can come forward and admit to buying items he purposely looted by knowing an exploit, I see absolutely no evidence of wrong doing.

Planet Owners Who Play
Issue: Planet Owners shouldn't be allowed to play (mostly because of issue #2)

Fact: Who would be more likely to produce a good planet? Neverdie or Anshe Chung, who, as far as I can tell, barely played EU at all, even after buying the bank.

Personally, I want the planet partners to be players. I want them to shoot, mine, craft and do everything else as much as they can. Because only folks who play could possibly be able to make any decent judgments. Proof: Check wishlist and bug reports. Players know this game better than MA does, that's for damn sure.

Yes, as Oleg mentioned, sometimes the rare idiot does cheat. And if ND does, we'll all boycott CND, his bank and his planets and petition MA to remove him. Simple.

But I refuse to judge someone guilty before the crime.

 

[Sirhc]

Hmmmm interesting. I can't make up my mind. While I agree ND has done and will do a lot for EU. I think he is leaving himself open for scrutiny. Maybe once you decide to vest your interests into developing, your other interests that can open you up to scrutiny should cease or be reduced.

Neverdie is a figurehead and it would be a shame to ban the avatar but maybe that avatar should be used in that "figurehead" state.

There will be some advanced knowledge of things in EU if you are developing aspects of the game. This is not new by any means the same questions have come up many a time with certain "close" relationships with MA over the years.

We can all drive ourselfs nuts thinking about the "what ifs" and possibilities of misuse of information. At some point you have to just let it go to some extent and just be aware of the possibilities and live with it. Can't live with it? Than its time to find a new virtual space.

I guess a couple questions I would ask myself if I were in ND's shoes would be:

Is what I am doing a conflict of interest and given time would that conflict grow?

Also is what I am doing ethical or am I playing in unethical muddy or grey waters?

Posted via Mobile Device

 

[MindStar9]

I was going to quote some folks, but frankly the issues seem to cover 3 main points:

Neverdie vs Hanne/Skam
Issue: Hanne had to give up the Skam avatar, so ND should too.

Potential For Cheating
Issue: ND has access to information that he could exploit for personal gain.

Planet Owners Who Play
Issue: Planet Owners shouldn't be allowed to play (mostly because of issue #2)

Yes, as Oleg mentioned, sometimes the rare idiot does cheat. And if ND does, we'll all boycott CND, his bank and his planets and petition MA to remove him. Simple.

But I refuse to judge someone guilty before the crime.

Even though ... Oleg brought up a viable real life-related scenario, which I thought was a great response to a post that JC did ... I have to agree with what JC has laid out in the above (snipped) post, with one exception ... Planet Owners Who Play.

First ... I have no issue with planet owners playing in their own created environments, but ... if I recall correctly, all those who are employees of MA/FPC do have avatars that are allowed to play, but (and again if I recall correctly) their avatars are restricted, and have features that we would like to have for ourselves. In this respect, I believe that they are prevented from exploitation, or taking advantage with regard to any inside information. Skam created her official FPC avatar after joining their staff, and gave up playing her original avatar, which I feel is absolutely appropriate.

However ... this is not to say that someone may be inclined to take advantage if they feel they can get away with it, but ... have we really seen any of this type of behavior going on? People continue to speculate about a lot of things, including certain avatars of high ranking status receiving special treatment ... I've also wondered that myself given some things that have occurred, but bottom-line ... there is absolutely no proof of any of these speculations, and we continue to beat this issue to death when we really have no evidence.

Second ... I know there's no stopping someone from creating and playing a second avatar for personal gain, accept for MA being more vigilant perhaps, but not sure they would be able to catch everything, or maybe even in certain situations do anything if they are aware of it. Perhaps the only thing is to be vigilant ourselves and report any discrepancies, because no matter what ... there will always be two sides (maybe more) to these issues, and we're just not all going to see eye-to-eye on them. There are some good arguments here though for both sides.



.

 

[Norbert]

Neverdie vs Hanne/Skam
Issue: Hanne had to give up the Skam avatar, so ND should too.

Fact: Hanne is an employee. ND is not. On Hanne's income tax reports, she's listed as an employee, with set salary, and FPC and her must follow all the rules and laws governing employees (hours, pay rates, taxes, benefits, etc. etc.)

ND's tax papers list him as a small-business owner, (owner of Neverdie Studios, who is in business partnership with MA) complete with him paying employees, not being paid as one. ND has no guaranteed income. No health benefits. etc. If you don't know the difference between an employee and a business owner, you need help.

Potential For Cheating
Issue: ND has access to information that he could exploit for personal gain.

Fact: Yes, he could exploit things if he wanted. Has he so far?

Before i reply i hope ND can continue to play but these points will I think be the main ones.

As for ND vs Hanne all this depends not on Neverdie studio's who seem to be a design company for planets. As for Rocktropia itself, if ND is the owner or employee of Rocktropia it would be highly unprofesional to be a player to imo. I just see this becoming an issue that becomes one of those many discussed outside EU that give people a bad impression.


As for the second point that he could exploit things. If it is in fact true this is the case that he has such knowledge,then to carry on as a player is just wrong imo. Not because he probably won't do this, more that it is possible to do so. Where there is opportunity unchecked by regulation most people will use that information (insider trading anyone? ).

I just feel that MA/ND should make it clear what information he will be privy to, and that this will not be an unfair advantage. To not do so will just create lots more conspiracy/bitching posts around the internet.

As i already said personally i don't give a rats ass if he continues to play (and hope that he can). I am more concerned about the knock on results, and percieved viewpoints of potential players/investors both here and upcoming.

Still undecided tbh but this is what worries me.



.

 

[Aydonis]

I think he should be able to participate in the game in any capacity he likes.



... and I wouldn't object one bit if he maybe slid me a couple ped for speaking out here in his favor XP lol


But I agree an ath like you describe on his own planet probably wouldn't go over too smoothly regardless if it were blind luck or not.

 

[Etopia]

Marcos Neighbours and ND are no treat. ND's close relationship to MA doesn't affect the entire bandwith of EU participants. ND is a businessman and not competing with hunters, miners and crafters out there every day in regular runs and special events.
It's the high end avatars primarily from one certain society gaining huge advantages and different treatment on every possible matter.

If you tell me it's not true, I tell you that you are lying.

It's not my job to think about and how to realize limits. One possibility would be guidelines like beeing used for real lotteries and sweepstakes, where employees and their relatives are not allowed to actively participate. As I said it's not my job to break my head about this.
Dumping the highly skilled certain avatar of a highly graded certain society since the owner got hired at MA in early 2007 would be a good start, don't you think?

ahhh jealousy...

I think its time some people stop with their small crapy grunge , take 1 min to look around and think,and then realise that what their say dont really make sence.
You are still trying to archive your small little pathetic vendeta , puched by your jealousy...
I think its better to think ahead and look at bigger picture.

If someone can get an info that give a real big advantage over other participant , then there is a problem.If that case exist , then it should be adressed.
Trying to get rid of 1 partissipant with some lame excuse will not solve the problem , neither help for next case...
There is no way to know who is friend with who , and who give what info to who...
So just saying lets ban this and that avatar show you just try to puch your own aganda , in disquise of the god sake for everyone.


If we want to be sure game if fair , i think we should discuss of security mecanic MA can have in office and in the way they code game and what info plnat partner get.Also , it would be good to ask MA(hope skam will shed some light) about how it work at MA to decide stat of item or mobs , or about who and how are managed the loot system.
I mean , it would be nice to know if there is people that know for exemple the list of possible of a mobs or if this is managed by the system.

Doing a witch hunt to get rid of the neightbour you dont like is imho not solution to that problem.

 

[Gabriel]

ahhh jealousy...etc

This is not about jealousy but rather about fairness in a world me and other "normal" people like to hang around in very much. Wearing your soctag is getting close to cheating. To avoid you chaging topic and twisting facts as usual let me ask you directly again:

Dumping the highly skilled certain avatar of a highly graded certain society since the owner got hired at MA in early 2007 would be a good start, don't you think?

This is not an agenda against a single person. It's against the unfairness based on MindArks lack of professionalism.

I know this is a bit offtopic, but Etopias propaganda nonsense doesn't give another choice than replying in public.

 

[willywinka]

yes great idea

but two things, when do you ever see ND get any big loots for some considerable time and secondly, yes lets ban him, afterall its not like he could pass on information to another avatar to score some huge loot if he was that way inclined! is it!?

stupid post in my opinion!

 

[Bones]

The most famous successful richest and powerful avatar in the history of the world can not be banned.

Thank You Kimmi , but I don't think I am in any danger at this point of being banned.

As far as NEVERDIE , I dont see how any information he could possibly gain that would make enough profit for the risks involved.

EntropiaUniverse needs cheerleaders to keep the new players flowing and there isnt a better than NEVERDIE.


Bones

 

[mandu]

This is not an agenda against a single person. It's against the unfairness based on MindArks lack of professionalism.

I know this is a bit offtopic, but Etopias propaganda nonsense doesn't give another choice than replying in public.

This is not off topic at all. I edited the OP after about 70 replies to clarify what my point was.

I did use ND as an example that would get people talking, but my point is, as you put it, not an agenda against a single person.

There should be some controls, restrictions, and publicly known policies on how people close to the development and business of running this game behave.

 

[mastermesh]

Neverdie vs Hanne/Skam
Issue: Hanne had to give up the Skam avatar, so ND should too.

Fact: Hanne is an employee. ND is not. On Hanne's income tax reports, she's listed as an employee, with set salary, and FPC and her must follow all the rules and laws governing employees (hours, pay rates, taxes, benefits, etc. etc.)

ND's tax papers list him as a small-business owner, (owner of Neverdie Studios, who is in business partnership with MA) complete with him paying employees, not being paid as one. ND has no guaranteed income. No health benefits. etc. If you don't know the difference between an employee and a business owner, you need help.

ND is a contracted business partner. As such, the rules for him and Hanne are different... BUT... Whatever ND does becomes a precedence for future planet partner/owners. That makes it a huge deal. What is an employee does come in to question a bit too. Just like the RCE vs real world cash economy arguments, is a "business partner" i.e. subcontractor to be considered an employee or not.

Another big issue that is not really related, but sort of is... as a subcontractor, everything ND studios did in game or creates in the future may just well be "work for hire"... That brings us back to the whole copyright issues debate, which is something a bunch of other threads could be talking about. From what I've read hints on, it seems that ND wants participants in the City of Dreams studio owners eventually to upload songs and stuff. EULA with MA says all your copyrights go away as soon as you upload. That could be a major issue later on for both the owner of Rocktropia and MA itself. What are they going to do about people uploading songs they like that they recorded off of other artists on the radio, mp3 uploaded from ripped cds, etc. That whole issue will put a completely different spin on "space pirates"

 

[JohnCapital]

That brings us back to the whole copyright issues debate, which is something a bunch of other threads could be talking about. From what I've read hints on, it seems that ND wants participants in the City of Dreams studio owners eventually to upload songs and stuff. EULA with MA says all your copyrights go away as soon as you upload. That could be a major issue later on for both the owner of Rocktropia and MA itself. What are they going to do about people uploading songs they like that they recorded off of other artists on the radio, mp3 uploaded from ripped cds, etc.

Wasn't this whole copyright issue, discussed and clarified back when PC signs (Personal Content) came ingame? (Remember the whole uploading of pics and video to signs?)

That issue is years old and has nothing to do with RT at all. What works for current PC signs works just the same for any future PC.

Folks, so many of you are worried about "what might..." you are completely forgetting basic history. Most of you were around when this stuff occurred. You aren't that new.

 

[slasha]

I think he doesnt know much more from designing a planet than playing the game for as long as he has . He wouldnt need to know all the secret nuts and bolts behind the visual engine (loot pool mechanics ect) to design it, and MA wouldnt tell him .So i think there is no need to bann his ava or change it in anyway , hence they havent.

 

[Marijuana]

Hi,

My Qwestion is what if MA employee that kno inside information just whispering inside inforation into some friends ear ?

Noone will notis it right ?
There can be lots of manipulation by MA imo!

Makes me scared of MA !



Mari *.*

 

[fox moulder]

Should ND be banned?

Yes.... but only because im jealous of him

To be honest i have no problem with him playing, i mean so fat i have not seen any stupidly large loots with his name on so im guessing he is smart enough not to screw things up for himself and others.

 

[slasha]

Hi,

My Qwestion is what if MA employee that kno inside information just whispering inside inforation into some friends ear ?

Noone will notis it right ?
There can be lots of manipulation by MA imo!

Makes me scared of MA !



Mari *.*

like the tv phone in quiz things where the winners were all employees , it could happen who can say if it has or has not , its entirely possible and due to the human condition entirely probable. How well could the company detect this if a friend of a friend was to be used , i know its nexto impossible perhaps this is a good reason to impliment more of skill based loot than it is to prevent total newbs form geting our ATH's.(just incase that newb is old friend of "Dave" from balancing team)

 

[Tass]

I think I never been as close to pulling the bs sign as the larger parts of this thread get me...

In general...

Noone, not ND or anyone else, should be allowed to work on the developers side and be a regular player/investor at the same time.

It doesn't matter whether or not you have the best intentions, it's simply not done in a professional environment.

You can find similar situation in other areas that are regulated by law in almost every country of the world.

There are many good reasons for this restriction -some can be found it this thread- and applying it would be the best for the future of EU.

Just one example: If I had the resources to become a planet partner this kind of intransparency and lack of professionalism would prevent me from doing business with MA.


"All the great things ND did for EU..."

Whether or not and how activities of ND contributed to the success of EU is highly controversial.

There are people that might be rather scared off when "the most famous and successful avatar of all time" is hyping a kind of get-rich-quick scheme that consists of killing pop dragons with rock'n'roll axes and all this party-celebrity-nightclub-hollywood thing.

And attracting people to the game by shady marketing promises is one thing but it's quite another to keep them playing by convincing game mechanics, innovative concepts, elaborated settings...
Just imagine the millions of $ ND taxed the EU community would have been invested in the development of the game, what kind of game could we have now?

I already mentioned it several times, all the great things other people do for EU day in day out like

- running forums
- tp running newbies
- creating guides
- mapping revival borders
- hosting radio shows
- helping newbies
- filling wikis
- holding free events
- creating tools (trackers, skill scanners, ...)
- ...

is what a hundred ND's could not achieve.


Conclusion

That the larger part of the community doesn't care about the issues mentioned above is obvious. Because of those who care probably only a few are playing the game.

However, I think we all should pay a little more attention of what is common sense outside of EU and care for EU to being developed accordingly.

Because then in the future EU would be able to attract many people that are rather discouraged by the current circumstances.

 

[willywinka]

what really makes me laugh

you are all taking it as a given that ND has any inside information on the actual mechanics of the game! why dont some of you stop flapping your gums overthinking everything and actually go and play the game! seems like those with the most to say on here are people who are rarely seen in game anyway!

ps i'm not a fan or a hater of ND just someone that thinks too much crap is being banded around on here.

 

[Etopia]

Dumping the highly skilled certain avatar of a highly graded certain society since the owner got hired at MA in early 2007 would be a good start, don't you think?

Give name so we know about who you speak , and then bring some fact...


From what i know , people who are hired by MA , and i speak about real hired as employe who go at office like every singel other employ , have monitored avatar.
But , there is many people , who just do job here and there for MA, and yes they still have normal avatar if they had one before , or if they create one after.
But , its not 1 singel person that case, its many , many many...

This is not an agenda against a single person. It's against the unfairness based on MindArks lack of professionalism.

It is , you always come with the same 2 or 3 argument , and they are always against same people...
Yet , you never check or watch all other who may fall in that case...and if they do , you never speak about it...

I know this is a bit offtopic, but Etopias propaganda nonsense doesn't give another choice than replying in public.

What i do is not propaganda, i try to bring the topic on something a bit more fair and interessing than just " lets ban ND"...
Does banning ND will solve any problem ? no.
does banning ND will help in future for something ? no...

Banning ND will just make a bunch of hypocrit jealous happy for 3 day... after what they will just jump on next target...imho its just lame...
and it sill not prevent ND friend to abuse knowledge if there is abusable knowledge...
I think it would be better to discuss the topic a bit more inteligent way , and try to get some reply from ND , marco , skam , or some MA representative...
From my experience , when thread turn out to be just a flame fest , they dont say word on the subject...
And i think its kind of interessing subject that i would like to hear something from them.

 

[Gabriel]

blabla..playing dumb...blabla...ofc no clue blabla...usual bs

Let's ask "dave dodgy" if he got something to say.

 

[TheVoid]

not wanting to say too much on the subject I do recall several situations were I believe some players had the edge because they have inside information (friends, family, themselves, who knows)


EU deals with a real economy and like the real world some people have the edge because they know more about some things then others. Call it whatever you want, it stinks but it's the way the world works.

Personally I stopped investing in this game because I know I don't have the the money or the contacts to enter in the small list of players that actually get money from the game.


So, does some ppl have the edge? sure they do. do I care? no, I haven't expected to get something good from the game for a long time now, why bother.


play for fun... or don't play at all, real life is already too complicated

 

[XeroX2]

hmm no ofc that avatar should NOT be banned... I mean Eu has VERY poor PR... but with NEVERDIE it at least got a little bit so why should they take that away?

btw even IF the AVATAR was banned... who would stop him to tell some people he likes some stuff from first hand in private forums or whatever? Noone can control that anyway. I don`t say he or any other person who works with MA does that but I remember some situation for example when certain ppl chipped out a lot where it looked like it`s happening.

 

[nlnforever]

How big is a ATH?

100k peds ? 10k of USD?

You think that a person like NVD would care about 10k of USD?
You think that his income per month is less than 10k of USD?

 

[Crygenifer]

yes he should be banned and all his virtual assets immediately turned over to me

 

[exovirus]

I think if anything he should be banned for fagifying eu with his slutsucktropia... I know cold, cruel and ND will probably never like me... sniffles..

but hey.. just my opinion

 

[Nooba]

I think if anything he should be banned for fagifying eu with his slutsucktropia... I know cold, cruel and ND will probably never like me... sniffles..

but hey.. just my opinion

That was really subtle, have you considered work as a diplomat?

 

[exovirus]

That was really subtle, have you considered work as a diplomat?

No, but I am looking for a part time job and the US is always looking to open new embassies in places they just bombed.... I see potential!

 

[JingyiDai]

Wel... we may no like some people, but they are just people like us after all

If you are up on CND, there is this very small shopstand,
there is this picture.

If you look at it and think about it...

FOr some folks this place has more meaning than peds , skills or fame.

 

[Commodore]

The reason they get people to drop their accounts before entering the inner circle, isn't because of the amazing secrets and access to untold wealth that would result from knowing the arc of prime degrees bomb running pattern, nor the avatar biorhythm or even the avatar history dilation calculation for simulated acquisition and retention of weapon & tool usage.

It's simply because when people know that the system is designed to turn you upside down and shake hard, they stop playing. Then we'll wonder why the insiders suddenly don't have much time or money to enjoy Entropia with us.

Of course the rules are designed as safe-guards. Any company you join you sign NDA's and the like, doesn't mean they drag you into the board room on the first day and reveal the inner-workings of everything. So I doubt our favourite news reporter and personality presently knows much more 'secret' than how to blag free coffee and cake out of the vending machine.

As for ND, sure he knows how something is designed and works, but that has no relation to the outcome of inner game mechanics. That's all good 'ol MA territory. I think it's more like designing a car, being concerned with the bodywork and the number of drinks-holders, how the engine is connected or the design of the suspension is not open for debate.