Suggestion: Tax the leeches

[Bregi]

Right now we have people who are getting 70% returns, and others who are just leeching through trade. Leeches are sucking the blood out of this economy, all of those who did well in trading did so at the expense of others who lost. And those leeches, if they could, would suck this economy dry until there's nothing left, then they would just move on to something else. That's how leeching works.

First : you're doing something wrong if you get an average return of 70%. Either track yoru result and find out what your true result is, or adapt.

Second: trading is an essential part of any functional economy. You trade your money for someone else his skills and/or time. Such as the warp service mentioned before. And, where you seem to have the biggest problem with, trade for time. I can sell in minutes to a trader below markup, then he takes the time and effort to sell it for a bit more. I'm happy, because I have the PEDs again to hunt. The trader is happy, because he got stacks again to sell. See it more as a service you are paying for. Or do you suggest that any RL shop is also "sucking the blood out of the economy"?

Third: If you want, you could also see trading as a symbiotic relationship. A personal example: I play on Arkadia for over 90% of my time. Unfortuatly, Arkadia has less trafic, and thereby less demand of loot and other resources. A friend of mine often buys my loot on Ark, and sells it on Caly. And I'm perfectly oké with that, because it means that I can keep, while also getting a bit of markup.

Last: Most hunters can be considered a leech when applying your logic here. I loot an item, and when it has good markup (typical >120%) they I'll put it on Auction. I look at the sales graph, and put the starting bid at the lowest sale of the past month to year. For the buyout I look at how the trend is progressing the last 1-2 weeks. I put the BO price above that. If a buyer wants it, and whants it now he can pay the BO price. If not, he can place a normal bid. It's the buyers call, really, how to spend their PEDs.

 

[SoberPhil]

First : you're doing something wrong if you get an average return of 70%.
It's not me, but many hunters in this game, some of whom you see from time to time complaining on this forum about such returns, and then you usually don't see them anymore.

Second: trading is an essential part of any functional economy.

I wasn't talking about trading in general, only the scamming part, wich includes creating fake markup, among others. Yes, some traders are honest, and those are needed when you want a large quantity of sweat, for example, of if you don't want to leave Arka, others you see scamming noobs, using auction bots and such, heck, some avatars don't move an inch away from the auctioneer, and I've been seeing this for years, they use alts to get more auction slots, which is not alright I think.

I play on Arkadia for over 90% of my time. Unfortuatly, Arkadia has less trafic, and thereby less demand of loot and other resources. A friend of mine often buys my loot on Ark, and sells it on Caly. And I'm perfectly oké with that, because it means that I can keep, while also getting a bit of markup.

In thins situation there is no choice, and it's a design issue, in my opinion, this game needs to have one auction, so that PPs have equal access as well, just like Calypso. Another solution is what you have going on on NI, where you can get a free warp to Calypso every sunday. And note that whatever that reseller is making off of you, you're essentially loosing in loot, maybe this is part of why you have 92% over such a large turnover. And yes I read your blog on Arkadia forum, It's always an interesting read, please keep it going.

Last: Most hunters can be considered a leech when applying your logic here

No, I was only talking about those who haven't contributed anything to the economy at all, have 0 turnover, but are actively withdrawing PEDs they make from reselling overpriced stuff with artificially inflated MU, because we end up paying for it in diminished returns, which, in my opinion, is not fair and should not be allowed to go on.

 

[Granny Rowan]

At the end of the day whether in real life or game (same really as same mix of humans with human frailties), you cannot legislate against greed or stupidity.
If in real life you want to buy a car, you could go to nearest garage and pay what they ask, without research, and risk being 'ripped off', or you could spend days travelling around garages, trawling the internet for cheapest. But it is the best deal ? not necessarily as in life like the game there are other variables. In life does the vehicle come with extended warrantee, is it fully maintained, is it the colour you really wanted etc etc
In game what is the tier rate, if an armour piece then how easy to get the rest, or will you be stuck with just 1 or 2 bits..

Also how much of a hurry are you in..is it long term wish, or needed for this weeks event. Desperation is the key to many over-priced purchases.

Also lets flip this and look at other side of the coin.
should all traders only sell at or below last known sale price, this can lead to a race to the bottom, which is patently silly, yet often seen on AH, will you legislate against that too, stop people undercutting and damaging the profit line others deem normal ?

This is a free market economy, and tbh the phrase in the TOU about market manipulation holds little water, unless people can be seen provably to be trading items to and fro to jack the price.
Hoarding etc is done for many reasons:
Looking for a price rise to sell at better price, which is sensible as market ebbs and flows, especially before, during and after events.
Indecision, am I going to use this myself or not, keep it until I decide if I can get the other parts, the ideal amp etc
Intentions that fail, hoard with a view to manufacturing an item, or doing a mission (galactica for instance) then deciding against it and selling off what you have. If price went up in meanwhile that is your good fortune, it could just as easily have crashed.

Hoarding may be used to market manipulate but who would decide the players intent. Damned if I want someone else deciding what as a player I can keep in my storage and when I can and can't sell.

 

[JohnCapital]

Let's put it another way:

You want to kick out specific game players because you think removing them might help your personal loot improve by a slight amount.

That is honestly a pretty selfish and dickish move on your part.

 

[SoberPhil]

Let's put it another way:

You want to kick out specific game players because you think removing them might help your personal loot improve by a slight amount.

That is honestly a pretty selfish and dickish move on your part.

Hi! Not sure why would you come to such a conclusion, my guess is you're just making things up. What I was calling for is the removal of scammers and market manipulators, which is essentially the same thing, which would make this game a whole lot better for everyone. Do agree that auction bots, compet deed resellers, people creating fake markup on several items, people using alts for increased auction slots, or people that scam noobs are bad for this game? If not, please tell me why.

 

[SoberPhil]

Look, I’m sorry for all the butthurtedness that this thread has caused to some, I’ve never intended to insult anyone, nor do I have the right to judge anyone. I’m not a judge, I’m just a guy, like everybody else, and yes, I’m not perfect, I may be wrong about many things. And yes, I’m being overpassionate about this game, why, because I have time, money and effort invested in it, which I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t love it. Entropia Universe is the only game I’ve been playing for years.

Obviously, English is not my first language, but I will do my best do describe the problem that may be threatening this game’s future. It is the development of the industry, in short. When people will have a choice between 70-80% returns, and a brave new world, what would any rational person choose? As a potential solution to this, I suggested taxing the leeches, because they’re not just useless, but harmful, and if those having 70-80% returns could get 95% after redistributing the leeches’ profits, they would stay in this game instead of leaving. That’s all there is to it.

After all, isn’t a game judged by its appeal to the average player? Most of you know already that it is extremely difficult for the average player to get a foothold in this game. To be successful in Entropia, the average player would need to do a tremendous amount of research, also he’d need to be able to distinguish real opinions from fake ones, because some people in this forum, sadly, start to insult anyone who complains, hoping they’d be able to get better loot this way. You can clearly see it in this thread. This game needs to become friendlier towards the average player. Of course, you’ll say that the whales are paying for the lootpool, which is true, and the whales are great people, however, when the average player is gone, the whale becomes the average, and when the whale realizes this, he’ll just move to something else.

All I want is for this game to thrive, and for that to happen longterm, the leeches gots to go, this model cannot continue forever, it just can’t, the game has to become friendlier to the average player, and for that the leeches have to be cut off.

 

[SoberPhil]

 

[JohnCapital]

Do agree that auction bots, compet deed resellers, people creating fake markup on several items, people using alts for increased auction slots, or people that scam noobs are bad for this game? If not, please tell me why.

HUGE difference between scammers (who lie and deceive to trick people out of money) and people trying to get the most they can for what they own, even if they bought it with the intention of reselling for higher.

How would you handle someone like Mercury, who was not just one of the biggest players during his time, but also one of the biggest resellers ever. Would you kick him out of the game because he "selfishly" made money reselling? I mean, according to you, that money should have gone into your pocket instead, right?

 

[JohnCapital]

All I want is for this game to thrive, and for that to happen longterm, the leeches gots to go,

Long-term? Dude, this game started back in 2003. 17 years is already a LONG time for an MMO, or frankly any online business. And it's not looking like it's dying any time soon.

Little Perspective:
Entropia is older than World of Warcraft.
Entropia is older than Facebook.
Entropia is older than Twitter.
Google had their IPO after Entropia was born.

And in all that time, almost from the beginning, there have been people who resell to make extra money in Entropia.

Here's a mental exercise: Try to think of why people paying large prices for items is actually GOOD for Entropia, not bad.

 

[SoberPhil]

that money should have gone into your pocket instead, right?

I never said that, I said that a small portion of it should go back to the loot pool and make bad loot periods a little less bad. You are once again lying about what I said and twisting my words. I guess that's what people do when they're out of valid arguments.

And you should really read some gaming related news and keep up to date with what has been going on in the industry this year.

 

[Granny Rowan]

Lets try and keep this discussion on point and impersonal.

Everyone's definition of what is a reseller and what is a trader is probably clouded by the price of an item they wanted to buy but not at that price. That's human nature for you.

Is the asking price fair ? Well if it sells then I guess so, if it doesn't the seller gets to choose between relisting and paying another fee, relisting cheaper but paying 2nd fee, private sale or keeping it. What they choose is not for others to decide. Even a no sale does not prove item is over-priced, or a scam, it could simply be it was listed at wrong time or on wrong planet (most AH users are lazy and only check planet they are on)

Whether we choose to buy at the offered price is for us to decide.

Its called a free market economy

but bots/alts are an entirely other matter and should be dealt with in accordance with the TOU

 

[JohnCapital]

I never said that, I said that a small portion of it should go back to the loot pool and make bad loot periods a little less bad. You are once again lying about what I said and twisting my words. I guess that's what people do when they're out of valid arguments.

Oh, so you'd be perfectly ok if the changes you ask for were made and your personal loot wasn't altered a single bit?

And you should really read some gaming related news and keep up to date with what has been going on in the industry this year.

I don't care about other MMOs. I only play this one.

You didn't answer my question about Mercury. How would you prefer to handle high turn over playing resellers?